Commendable? Martin, I often enjoy your rather downbeat views, but here I would take exception Id describe that bloke as a gig crasher, or stage intruder rather than 'harmonica player', and Ford's action was only marginally effective. It still required intervention from an off stage party to get the guy off the stage. Ford's action merely pushed the guy off the mic momentarily. He came back and escalated. Person monitoring sound could have just cut that mic briefly, let the guy imagine he was a star while security got it together to remove him. I would have considered that commendable over some ineffective but perhaps emotionally satisfying mild-violence. It was entertaining though, and I thank you for posting. ----------
Commendable? That Mark guy is lucky. Someday, he might not be so.
I don't how things go down where the folks wear flannel shirts and big mustaches, but not too many people I know would hang back after a kick to the gut.
No comment on Marc´s musical performance -- but, as Gnarly says, he has nothing against harmonica players: see recent CD.
A trumpet/saxophone/guitar etc player would NEVER try what this guy attempts. That´s the issue here: thousands of harmonica players think it´s all right for them to crash a gig because of the portability of the instrument. They ought to be treated exactly as in this video.
A few years ago when I sat in with a blues band who´s been playing professionaly for several decades -- I sat in because some friends of mine asked: would of course never do it otherwise (I´d been playing nearby) --, when we spoke afterwards they said that this is a kind of behaviour that´s increasing in frequency. Also, honking along with your harmonica while you´re standing close to the stage; most annoying on slow numbers at smaller venues.
Any serious harmonica player should take a definite stand against this. If not for the sake of courtesy, then in our own interest.
I was watching a lady perform locally and before she played she said that those who have harps in the audience we are playing in F#minor....in other words keep your harps in your pockets...
@didjcripey: admittedly not very pretty. But obviously the guy is being told something beforehand ("Fokh off!" probably) but he pays no mind. I think the bandleader is making a statement, and I´m in complete agreement.
i used to work w/ a bassist (Jim K) a 6'5" gentle Samoan/Hawaiian giant. A master of the English language and two others,he is a brilliant writer and teaches at a college. an anomally for sure given his background. we gigged for over two decades together and though a gentle giant, he kicked a few gussers dumb enough to crash the stage, or used his P-bass as a menacing club. but then again he grew up where men carried rocks in their Lava Lavas as a matter of course. i thought Jims behaviour a bit excessive, but he, as i, come from warrior stock. we've barely been out of the rain forest for long. though i in no way condone it, violence is a matter of course for islanders. Beware of Micronesians. To this day they cut eachother w/ knives to see who quits first. Charming drinking pastime i assure you. i tried it but we used sharp sticks instead of knives. i gave up first but was admired for being game. i feel that village people guy with the guitar is a bloody fool. At least my bassist could back himself up. anger management? Ca va sans dire.:-) ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by MP on Jun 14, 2013 1:53 PM
------Marc Ford is a thuggish prick. I don't care what the justification is for kicking the harmonica player. The interloper was trying to play a solo, not wield a knife or aim a gun. Better if Ford had stopped the band and refuse to play until the harp player left or was removed; the harpist would have been fittingly humiliated. But that didn't happen because Ford didn't think of it and Ford didn't think of it because he's goon who incidentally plays decent blues guitar. Fuck this guy. I will not buy your albums.---- Ted Burke http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
http://ted-burke.com tburke4@san.rr.co,
Last Edited by TheoBurke on Jun 14, 2013 2:37 PM
I would say this falls under, "seemed like a good idea at the time."
The guy holds up the harp and gestures. Mark then says something as he points at the guy to leave. With the music that loud the interloper may have not heard what was said and misinterpreted the hand gesture. He doesn't look like your typical crazy asshole.
When he steps to the mic he plays one note along with the band and at least in the right key. Perhaps a bit worse for drink and perhaps nervous as well, when he's told to leave the 2nd time he may have just been confused and jumps in and plays four notes, again in sync. At which point he gets the gut kick.
We don't know what he's saying to the bass player but it could have been, "What was that all about?"
On the other hand, Mark Ford may have already been pissed off about something and this was just the final straw.
So I figure it's a wash. The guy was an idiot in the first place for jumping in but a lot of uninformed would think that is the done thing with a blues band. In any event, a kicking should have come as no surprise but obviously was.
Mark Ford could have handled the situation in a lot of different ways that would have been better but he could have reacted in a worse way as well. Pete Townsend and Keith Richards clocking stage invaders with a solid body guitar come to mind. Or his aim could have been half a foot lower. O he could have just stopped everything and stood there, embarrassing the crap out the guy. He could have just vamped and called for security. He could have taken the mic stand away. So many options.
Although it was a festival it wasn't at the Lincoln Center or Albert Hall. The audience was relatively small. If I was not playing harp myself I might have let him have a go as being the path of least resistance. I like to keep the vibe upbeat and smacking somebody tends to be a buzz kill. Besides, the music was a little self indulgent guitar soloing and maybe the guy was really good and would have given a nice contrast.
I remember being bugged to distraction by this kid wanting to play guitar. I kept saying no as kindly as I could. Eventually, the bartender says to me, "This kid is really good." So I thought, "Screw it. Why not." Sometimes gets the crowd on your side if it's a known local.
So I tell the kid he can use my guitar and amp. He leaps to the stage and cranks the volume control on my amp. "Oh no, here we go," I thought. Kid was killer. I mean just flat out tore it up. Stopped him after the one number. Too damn good. Probably should have kicked him in the gut. ---------- LSC ---------- LSC
Poor harp player! If he timed this better and made sure the beautiful front kick to the midsection occurred in good 'ole America, this unknown harp player would now be called Mark Ford, and guess what, he would now own "The Mark Ford Band", including all the rights and priveliges their unto(ie: own the Marc Ford estate).
Poor creature, his musical timing was dead on, but his legal timing couldn't have been worse-lol
Martin, I disagree with you. I'm not a card-carrying pacifist, but neither am I somebody who thinks that violence is justfied when there were several other easily-available options.
Let's be honest: only somebody with a huge ego AND an anger-management problem would have done what Marc Ford, asshole, does here. The harmonica player was obviously way out of line. So what? There are other, more peaceful ways of getting him offstage. Any member of this forum has enough brains to think of them. Ford did it this way because he enjoys violence, plainly. That is the only conceivable reason a musician would sabotage his own show this way. Because of course what he accomplished with his kick was to take the focus off his music for the duration of the song.
If I'd been in this audience, and no matter how much I may have thought that I liked and respected Ford, I would have left during this song, thrown away whatever music of his I owned, and never attended another of his live shows.
I happen to love boxing and MMA. Violence has its place. This was the wrong place.
Don´t care anything at all for MMA & all that shit, but that´s not the issue. Nothing against violence per se. I care a lot for justice.
Interesting to see how comments drift towards the "bad behaviour from the band leader"... (admittedly crude, but justified: the guy could leave) to, "well shouldn´t it be accepted ´cause he´s harmonica player". There we go again: bad musicanship (is that a word in English?), and just pure dis-respect of another musician/or an entire band (not the harmonica player) is somehow OK here.
And then we complain that the harmonica isn´t being taken seriously. Yeah yeah, as Mr Morgenbesser said.
i hate to start a rumor...but if you notice after the kick the harmonica player is seen kissing the bass player. rumor has it, he was marc ford's "girlfriend" and earlier in the day he found them "together" sometimes there is more to a story than meets the eye. ---------- PASS THE HAT
@Martin: I don't think anyone is sticking up for the harp player. He crashed someone else's show and that's a dick thing to do, but kicking someone in the midsection is not only horribly violent, but also highly dangerous.
Did you hear about Randy Blythe from Lamb Of God being involved in the death of a fan who stage crashed?
Bottom line is that security are trained and paid to handle unruly audience members. In this instance, they should have acted sooner, but Marc Ford could have easily handled this without the violence.
Last Edited by Stevelegh on Jun 14, 2013 11:12 PM
Weirdos will come up. I was doing a call and response number at an open mic, teaching the crowd one of my songs. The stanza goes, 'And the cops they got my car, and I'm sitting in this cell, next time I'll build it faster, and the cops can go to hell'. Since I was doing a sort of conversational joking call and response, I took an aside to ask if there were any cops in the audience, and this disheveled guy wanders up and stands in front of me and starts talking about how he used to be an NYC cop, but in one of the 'secret' units. The conversation went on for 30 seconds or so, interrupting everything, before I convinced him it had been a rhetorical question.
No need to get violent. If a guy comes up with a harp uninvited, just have the band switch key and watch the harpers head explode trying to find something that fits. (And if he plays well enough to pull off some chromatic stuff, more power to him.) :)
Make sure security takes his picture and never lets him in again. If he's a real jerk you can probably even have him hauled off for drunk and disorderly.
We have a problem locally with a Hindu guy with severe Aspergers who goes up and proselytizes at open mics. He'll go on until they turn off the mic.
I think Marc Ford reacted very badly to the situation, but there may be more to it than we know. Either way though using violence in that manner is unacceptable to me. The thug mentality seems to be getting ever more prevalent in society today. That is not a good thing at all.
As to the issue of people playing harmonica off stage during performances or trying to gatecrash a performance to play. That to me is not something I would ever do, nor is it something I enjoy seeing/hearing. It's extremely ignorant to my mind.
To put that into context, it was a month after Lennon was shot and every rock star was looking over their shoulders. Keef has spoken about this and says he was sh1t scared that the guy was about to take him out.
@easyreeder: Would you like to expand a bit? I "care a lot for justice", indeed, and think the punishment meted out in this context was entirely appropriate.
Do you think that I´m unsure of the meaning of "justice"?. It´s no doubt kind of you to recommend a dictionary, but please direct me to the part which says "harmonica players have special privileges".
Martin, perhaps you should indeed do a bit of research on “justice.” You will find that the iconographic symbol of justice holds a scale in her right hand which represents fairness and equity: that the punishment should fit the crime. I think the point made by many here is that Marc Ford overreacted. I agree.
I also think his display of aggression might appeal to twits who are frustrated by their own weaknesses. I understand that. They are a tough lot to convince that they are ENTIRELY mistaken on the nature of society.
Ah, Rick, so you´re of the conviction that a harmonica player has some sort of right to interfere with any concert (even at Bayreuth?).
The distribution of justice was -- and I thank you for reminding me of the mythical iconography --, as I said before, in this case meted out correctly.
Of course I´m a frustrated twit -- aren´t we all? -- but even they can have a sensible notion of justice.
@Martin - Ricks comment that the scales of justice represent fairness and equity is reasonably accurate, though it goes a little deeper than that in it's origins. Nonetheless, I think the thrust of those who disagree with your view that the interloper got what he deserved boils down to whether or not the punishment fits the crime. So let us be sure that we understand you correctly.
A person invades an artists performance attempting to play along uninvited and manages to get out five notes. That is the crime correct?
His punishment is to be kicked with a boot to the abdomen. Said punishment risking; damage to vital organs, being knocked off the stage with a resulting fall which could have resulted in spinal injury and paralysis, being knocked over with the possibility of a head injury causing death. So you believe this to be a fair and reasoned response to the crime? BTW, all of the possible outcomes mentioned have happened in the last 12 months as a result of altercations on the street here.
I'd also like to point out, since you take a rather macho stance, the intruder did not go down or even seemed fazed. Seemed like a pretty wussy kick.
And one final thing, every true hard man I've ever met, I mean seriously true hard men, not one of them boasts of the fact nor do they broadcast it. They tend to be the quiet unassuming ones who have a great capacity for meting out force in a measured way and only going to extremes when extreme measures are undeniably called for, at which point the offender won't know what hit them until they wake up in hospital and someone explains it to them.
Make no mistake, I've marched in a few peace rallies and attended some Loveins in my time, still gotta love a hippie chick, but I have absolutely no problem agreeing there are times when force is appropriate. However, true strength lies in knowing when not to use it. In this instance, Mark Ford took a cheap shot at a weak victim while surrounded by others to protect his ass. So tell me Martin, where is the glory in that? ---------- LSC ---------- LSC
First of all, I did not particularly enjoy the song, and after about 4 minutes of mostly instrumental guitar playing, I was already ready for it to end.
\ Here is what I would have done. I would have let him do his to little bits of noodling, and then I would have keysd an end to the song, after all, the crowd already heard 4.5 minutes of it.
Then I would have called the guy up to the microphone, and puplicly explain to him how rude it is to do that, regardless of who you are.
Then I would have solicited the crowds opinion, and if it was bad, then the harp player learned a lesson. If it was good, then the crowd got what it wanted.
We do play for the crowd, and not for ourselves, after all.
What I would not have done is what Mr. Ford did. Act like a thug.
I think it's amusing that Marc Ford once had a band called 'the Uninvited'. Btw, I believe the other other guitarist in the clip is his son. ----------
@Martin "Do you think that I´m unsure of the meaning of "justice"?. .....please direct me to the part which says "harmonica players have special privileges". "
Yes, that's what I think. You can't understand what justice is without understanding what an appropriate response is, and you're arguing that violent assault is an appropriate response to rudeness. It seems to me you don't understand either concept. You've also made a faulty leap of logic at least twice by suggesting that one can't object to Mr. Ford's response without condoning the behavior of the other guy. If I feel a response is inappropriate it doesn't follow that I think the behavior that inspired it was appropriate. It is possible for the behavior of both Mr. Ford and the annoying harp player to be simultaneously inappropriate.
Playing on stage cranks adrenaline and self importance into the blood stream. I'm sure he regretted the move later. Not sure where security was when dude jumped on stage. The real crime was I listened to 4 minutes of a well played but boring blues rock thing that only got interesting with the boot thing. BTW it is a good jam track-surprised the guy just had an F harp in his pocket-not a lot of instrumental guitar blues in C Its an over reaction but - As Don Corleone said There are people in this world who go about demanding to be killed. You must have noticed them. They quarrel in gambling games. They jump out of their automobiles in a rage. They humiliate and bully people whose capabilities they do not know. These are people who wander through the world shouting, "kill me". And there's always someone ready to oblige to them.
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Jun 16, 2013 8:31 PM
I seem to remember a discussion on this on another forum that had lots of guitar players. They were more sympathetic to the guitar player. Somebody commented that this was a player from an earlier band who got too drunk and tried to play.. so he did not crash backstage, which might explain why security did not react.
Yeah, there are tons of other better responses. Walk over and unplug his mic, tell the sound guy to turn him off. End the song. Ask security to tell him to leave. I am in the camp that there are very few problems better solved by violence, that is how I survived being a wimp in high school with some pretty rough gangs and individuals.
@LSC: Yes, a wuzzy kick indeed. That -could- have been a lot less wuzzy: but it wasn´t. Therefore the punishment fitted the crime. I have no reason to think Marc F would want the guy killed etc (that would have been an overreaction). It wasn´t glorious, that´s your phrasing, but it was appropriate.
I´ll leave the "machismo" debate. A problematic concept and mostly misunderstood.
@easyreeder: You will just have to accept that I have another notion of justice. A "wuzzy " kick to the stomach, a punch in the nose, a kick in the ass etc -- some minor infliction of discomfort was both symbolically and morally the right way to go with the form of "rudeness" expressed by this harmonica player who crashes a gig, and obviously is being told (repeatedly!) to leave the stage, but comes back -- and comes back again. As I said, not pretty but appropriate.
That´s my take on it -- and I leave it at that since this isn´t Modern Moral Philosophy and we´ve drifted quite a bit from the harmonica.
Interesting that this minor bit of violence has disturbed so many as the blues we play and love is often rooted in violence.
'Least he didn't look on yonder wall for the shotgun,32-20, 44 or other instrument of mayhem we sing about. Or maybe another mule kickin' him out of the stall.
Harvey - you're totally right. Turn it round for the audience's entertainment. I wouldn't have enjoyed watching the show after seeing an assault unfold on stage.
@Martin: "...this isn´t Modern Moral Philosophy and we´ve drifted quite a bit from the harmonica."
We do indeed have a different notion of justice. But the discussion didn't drift, it took it's natural course. You chose the path when you created the post, and you led the discussion along the same path with each reply. When you create a post praising violence it shouldn't be surprising that a discussion about violence ensues. It wasn't much about the harmonica in the first place.
I think it's hard enough to use music to express oneself emotionally,"soothe the soul" and entertain and please an audience without being violent at the same time. It's like performing without ever smiling. You can't make yourself approachable and draw your audience in if you can't humanize yourself and build rapport through what you're trying to communicate. The kicker communicated that he wanted to folks to keep their distance and I'm sure they felt that.
It's not unlike playing too loud. I can hear you if you shout, but you're not going to move me if you're yelling at me. It's no wonder most comments here were critical of the playing. It was proficient, but touched no one's heart. No one's going to be saying they wished they could communicate the way this band did.
I vote against assaulting eardrums or kicking an audience member in the chest. Not a show I'd like to hear or see and I'm not going to even remember what the band played, let alone want to emulate it.
"@easyreeder: You will just have to accept that I have another notion of justice. A "wuzzy " kick to the stomach, a punch in the nose, a kick in the ass etc -- some minor infliction of discomfort was both symbolically and morally the right way to go with the form of "rudeness" expressed by this harmonica player who crashes a gig, and obviously is being told (repeatedly!) to leave the stage, but comes back -- and comes back again. As I said, not pretty but appropriate."
That's great 'n all that you get to voice your opinion... but a damaging blow to an important, and sensitive, part of ***another*** individual's body doesn't compute in my mind as justice, or equal, or fair, or whatever.
It is the simple fact that you truly believe Ford has the right to inflict bodily harm to another human being simply because he was slightly inconvenienced that is befuddling us. I would purport that as being analogous to an angered motorist beating up another driver simply because he/she was cut-off in traffic.
Last Edited by Miles Dewar on Jun 18, 2013 6:40 PM
@Martin - "That -could- have been a lot less wuzzy: but it wasn´t." It wasn't because the dude doesn't know how to deliver a proper front kick. He just pushed a foot out there. You'll also notice he stayed shielded behind the bass player.
"Therefore the punishment fitted the crime." There is no logic to that statement. Not to mention it implies forethought and control of which there was none.
"I have no reason to think Marc F would want the guy killed etc (that would have been an overreaction)."
I never said or implied that serious consequence was his intention, only that it was a distinctly possible outcome to his overreaction. Would you still be defending M.F if the intruder had been seriously injured or killed. Would you still figure that was appropriate and if so, do you yourself kick everyone who annoys you because that is an appropriate response? And if your answer to that is in the affirmative, do you have a good bail bondsman and criminal lawyer on retainer? Might want to think about getting that organized and possibly putting together responses to large sexually deprived cell mates when they decide what might be appropriate.
"It wasn´t glorious, that´s your phrasing," Actually that wasn't remotely my phasing. I actually asked a question. I did not make a statement.
If the intruder had jumped the bass player or started knocking over gear or started throwing mic stands at people than I would agree that a case could be made for responding to violent and dangerous actions with violence could be appropriate. Being an idiot and blowing a couple of notes down a mic is neither violent nor dangerous. Being an idiot and kicking someone for blowing a couple of notes down a mic is both violent, in a wussy sort of way, and dangerous.
From my heart, and based solely on the one note that the intruder was able to share as an uninvited guest, I truly believe that there was an opportunity to add some sparkle to a mundane performance before the scuffle became a disgrace.
I have done my fair share of bartending and bouncing and never had to use excessive force. Drunks can quite often be disruptive but they are rarely dangerous to none other than themselves. A hands off escort to a taxi would have been the best approach and the whole incident could have come off as amusing rather than appalling. Quite possibly even entertaining.
The force used in the video was inappropriate and illegal in many places. It's also indicative of a an unstable performer. The violent act did nothing to solve the problem. The object was to eject him in the most peaceful manner with minimum physical contact. The musician had many choices and he went with worst one. His job, at most, was to keep his distance and let the pros handle it.
This video features an intruder that was even more annoying, I think, but there were a lot more smiles and laughs:
Bob Dylan had a really hard call to make there. Too many music icons have been shot or stabbed by lunatics. That gut should have been tazed before he ever got that close or immediately once he had. That's pretty poor security.
Thievin' As I recall, security was a bit confused as to whether it was part of the show. Understandable, given how goofy so many of the Grammy shows are. Still... it is somewhat baffling as to why he was out there so long. I can imagine the knucklehead putting "I was Soy Bomb!" on his artist resume.
Interesting thread, by the way, I missed it the first time around. I'd have to agree that it was poor judgment on the part of the Marc Ford but it's not uncommon for bad judgment to be the defining factor in an improvised response. Youtube is full of them!
You know, it's funny, no one seems to have commented on the possibility that escalating the violence can end badly for the person escalating it. Yeah, you get a sucker shot in, but then the other person gets to throw a punch.
(Warning, the audio has a lot of profanity)
Here is an angry musician mixing it up with a bouncer. The musician (Glenn Danzig) escalates things with a shove. The bouncer was arguing, but not being physical. Danzig shoved him, and then tasted the pavement. Danzig was surrounded by his fans, but the bouncer dropped him so quickly they couldn't do a thing (and no one is going to mess with a guy who can drop Glenn with one punch.)
So, the possible outcomes- You succeed in getting him off the stage You succeed in getting him off the stage, but then have to face legal charges. You succeed in getting him off the stage, but then get sued because you seriously injured (or killed him) You escalate the fight and get hurt (or worse) You start a bar clearing brawl.
Only one of those options is good for your bottom line, and waiting for security will accomplish the same thing. The only way it seems like a reasonable response in your own best self interest to me is if you fear that the gusser is physical threat.
That said, we live in an era where we taze fans who run out onto the field in during a ball game. In my opinion, that's an over response. The theory behind it is that it then provides a deterrence to the next guy who is going to try it. I could cite all sorts of studies showing that as a deterrence that probably isn't going to work- it becomes more 'badass' to run out on the field if you know you are going to take a tazing for it and the thrill seeker isn't terribly responsive to adverse risks. The non-thrill seeker personality type probably wasn't going to run up there in the first place.
I saw the Dylan incident on TV and the broadcast was from another angle which was more focused on Dylan from the front. I saw wariness if not fear on his face during the whole time the idiot was on stage. Dylan always had the guy, at least peripherally, in view and positioned his guitar between himself and the threat. There was a slight hiccup in the song but it continued to its conclusion. A professional reaction from all, I thought.
If it's true that the harp player had a backstage pass then it's hard to put much blame on security, especially if it was a drinking venue where the kooks are expected to be in front of the stage.
The bottom line is, drunk or sober, anyone capable of putting the hurt on someone who is not physically threatening the well being of another has a deep seated problem. Simply put, the guy is a bully and there is no excuse or cure for that after pubescense.
