MP
2770 posts
Jun 12, 2013
1:19 PM
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I just read the following quote in a recent article on James Cotton in the Wall Street Journal-
'At 77, he will still, with the force of his playing, rapidly destroy a harmonica.' "It will last around maybe two or three songs," he said with a laugh during a recent phone interview. "And if I'm getting a record with it, maybe it lasts a week."
So don't feel bad if yah blow 'em because one of the greatest bluesmen who ever lived busts reeds too. i wish i was half the player the legendary, innovative, monster harp player, singer, songwriter James Cotton is. He was w/ the great Muddy Waters for twelve years, just did a record and is still goin' strong last i looked.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by MP on Jun 12, 2013 1:21 PM
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Rick Davis
1942 posts
Jun 12, 2013
1:28 PM
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I'd heard he starts with a new set of Marine Bands for every gig...
Here is the article
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jun 12, 2013 1:30 PM
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MP
2771 posts
Jun 12, 2013
1:41 PM
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Thanks Rick!
technology isn't my strong point so i didn't put in the link. i was relying on someone like you to do it for me. :-)
my tongue blocking technique isn't very strong so i'm almost amazed when tongue blockers break reeds. i've always thought you can destroy a reed much faster and more efficiently lip pursing:-)
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by MP on Jun 12, 2013 1:43 PM
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HawkeyeKane
1759 posts
Jun 12, 2013
1:47 PM
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"I'd heard he starts with a new set of Marine Bands for every gig..."
Just like Charlie, I think James has jumped on the Seydel bandwagon these days.
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Hawkeye Kane
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eharp
2110 posts
Jun 12, 2013
1:48 PM
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sounds great for a sound bite, but i aint buyin' it.
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FMWoodeye
661 posts
Jun 12, 2013
1:49 PM
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I've seen a fair number of Mr. Cotton's videos, and he doesn't seem inordinately abusive to the instrument.
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LIP RIPPER
687 posts
Jun 12, 2013
1:51 PM
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AG is a hard hitter. When I first got into it in 07-08 Adam anounced that he was coming to Gulfport and do a show with Mr. Satan. It was a couple hours away so Deedie and I reserved a room at the hotel where they played. I asked AG for a lesson and he said if he had the time we would. As it turned out he really didn't have the time and wanted to prepare for the show. He is adamant about that and the tuning of his harp's which gets us back to the hard hitting. He invited us to sit with him while he worked on his harps. He was complaining of a brand new one he'd just bought that just didn't work. Anyway after sitting, talking about the tweaking of harp's, a guitar tuner for such and things in between; he asked me to play him something and in trying to get half the volume he had, my Lee Oskar's would lock up. I obviously had the reed's very close and there wasn't any way of getting "that sound".
LR
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Rick Davis
1943 posts
Jun 12, 2013
1:55 PM
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I doubt he tongue blocks every note. Sounds to me like he purses a lot.
LOL, so much for all the smarty pants critics who insisted on lecturing me about BREATH CONTROL every time I blew a reed.
For me the goal in harp playing was never about preserving the harp for X number of years, but to play music. It looks like James Cotton has the same view.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Rick Davis
1944 posts
Jun 12, 2013
1:57 PM
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Tim, in the picture accompanying the WSJ article he is not playing an 1847 Seydel. Looks more like a customized Hohner.
I know quite a few players who are official endorsers, and some of them play other harp when performing.
But.... when I heard that thing about Cotton bringing a new set of Marine Bands to every gig it was quite a few years ago, before Seydel was on the scene.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jun 12, 2013 2:04 PM
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HawkeyeKane
1760 posts
Jun 12, 2013
2:29 PM
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@Rick
I dunno man....Here's the back of an 1847 Classic...
and here's the pic from the article...
Could be????
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
1947 posts
Jun 12, 2013
3:55 PM
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Tim, you are right! I was looking for the white comb...
I tried a few 1847 Silver harps and the reeds blew out like birthday candles. Odd reeds, too... not the ones that usually fail on other harps. I can relate to what Cotton said.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jun 13, 2013 8:16 AM
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HawkeyeKane
1761 posts
Jun 12, 2013
4:31 PM
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Rick, I know exactly what you mean. I've found that Seydels, by nature, are very responsive harps. Very little breath needs to be applied to them to get good tone and volume. But the reeds blow out very quickly if you treat it like a Hohner. Even the steel ones. I can see why Charlie has a liking for them since his style tends to be more mellow and laid back. But for a rip-snorter like Cotton, I can understand him going through a full set per gig.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Jun 13, 2013 6:47 AM
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BronzeWailer
1026 posts
Jun 12, 2013
4:41 PM
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'Fraid so. Used to be one or two a month. Now I'm down to one every 2-3 months though. I don't discriminate. My harp scalp contains Seydel 1847 low D, Manjis, Special 20s, Session Steels, Crossovers, a 365 and MBD. I am trying to be more gentle, but...
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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Harpaholic
205 posts
Jun 12, 2013
4:58 PM
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I dont buy it, but it makes a good story.
There must be something wrong with me because I rarely
blow out a reed, and I play everything including Hohners, Suzukis, Seydels, Joe Spier customs, etc:
I know I use more breath force than the average player and always push the bends to there limit.
As a beginner I did blow out harps, but rarely do now.
I would like to hear from our Pro's on the topic. Jason? Adam?
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Jun 12, 2013 5:03 PM
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Rick Davis
1949 posts
Jun 12, 2013
5:36 PM
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I blow out harps much less that I used to, but it may be because I switched mostly to Crossovers. I try hard to never bend a reed beyond the "floor" but I know I sometimes play harder than some other players. Nic gives me crap about playing to hard.
Way back when I used to play small low-powered amps I blew harps out a lot faster. The Mission amps and the Bassman help a lot.
I blew a reed out of a MBD a few days ago (a harp I've had for more than 3 years) and gave it to a local harp mechanic who happens to be a member of this forum. I'll post a review of his work when I get it back!
Actually, he does all the harp work for local legend Al Chesis, and Al told me Scott is "the best." Can't wait to play the harp.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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MP
2774 posts
Jun 12, 2013
7:16 PM
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a lot of harp players break reeds. that is why Hohner, Lee Oskar, Seydel, Suzuki, and Herring (are they still around?) make tool kits.
even if you don't fracture a reed they get old and lose their brightness,overtones, volume, etc.
according to Kim Field of Harps, Harmonicas, and Heavy Breathers-they are appox. one two hundreth of an inch thick. except for a 6 draw on my 64 chro i haven't blown out a reed in years. i do replace ones that don't perform up to snuff. did it for my neighbor yesterday. his three draw was weak and the tuning drifted.
i just fixed an order of 17 for a member of this board.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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jbone
1277 posts
Jun 13, 2013
4:37 AM
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I'm no James Cotton, but in one of the first bands I worked with, I once blew out 4 harps in a single night. The band was incredibly loud and my mistaken assumption was that if I played louder I'd be able to hear myself. The Fender Delux amp didn't cut it. I had no spare hars at that time so I was more and lore limited on what keys I could play in. And making $60 for the show and spending $80 on 4 Sp20's- this was in the eraly 90's- that brought home to me the dilemma of harp durability and playability and the volume issues we hear on stages all over the place.
I moved into Suzuki Manji territory not long after they came out, about 3 years ago, and have not looked back. I am not a harp worker, just a harp player. Out of the box it better WORK is my philosophy. I like the tone, and volume at the harp is bigger than most any other harp I've tried. Reed plates are affordable when I do wear one out. Which is not often.
It seems I've heard Mr. Cotton really punishing draw 4 very hard on some of his stuff from the 70's and 80's, so it's no wonder if he blows a reed here and there. One must expect to wear some stuff out if one is to get the job done most times. I do have a hard time believing anybody can blow up a whole set of harps in a night or a few sets.
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tmf714
1798 posts
Jun 13, 2013
5:48 AM
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Question is which reeds?
I bet it is all high register blow reeds-check out his shows lately? He enters onto the stage blowin the hell out of the upper register-lip pursing-then he visits first position at times throughout the show. He does not live there,but when he visits,those upper reeds know he has been there.
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HawkeyeKane
1762 posts
Jun 13, 2013
6:59 AM
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I do a lot of heavy bending and power chords in my band. Mainly because we're a rock band and I have to keep to a certain volume, tempo, and stylization. Believe it or not, the harps that have always seemed to last longest under my abuse are Silvertone Deluxes. That might be because they are leaky through the reed slots and the airflow on them isn't quite as intense, I dunno. Don't get me wrong, I'd take the tone of a Hohner or Seydel any day of the week. But when it comes to needing a workhorse that'll stand up to the abuse I deal to them, the HSD's are a good, inexpensive solution.
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Hawkeye Kane
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smwoerner
187 posts
Jun 13, 2013
8:21 AM
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What I’ve found interesting is that a lot of time on the high end it’s the draw reed that goes bad and not the blow reed. I’ve got a half dozen harps in the queue right now that need 9 draws and the player tells me he only play s the nine blow. You’ll also notice on the lower end that when some of those bends stop performing the way they should that a blow reed adjustment can make a big difference.
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Harpaholic
207 posts
Jun 13, 2013
12:52 PM
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If you break reeds like birthday candles, there's something wrong.
MP said "a lot of harp players break reeds. that is why Hohner, Lee Oskar, Seydel, Suzuki, and Herring (are they still around?) make tool kits"
Harmonica players have been breaking reeds for well over a hundred years, retail repair kits have been around for what? five, ten years, (except) Lee Oskar.
It makes sense to repair or tune yourself if you have the patience, I don't! Thankfully there's guys like Joe Spiers to take care of that for me.
Still hoping to hear from actual Pro's.
Do other pro's blow out reeds on a regular basis?
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Rick Davis
1952 posts
Jun 13, 2013
1:53 PM
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I know several pros who tell me that reeds break down and blow out frequently. They have to get their harps serviced regularly.
I'd like to hear from the pros here, too.
Harpaholic writes: "If you break reeds like birthday candles, there's something wrong."
You better talk to James Cotton!
What I wrote was that the 1847 Seydel Silver harp reeds blew out like birthday candles when compared to other harps, but it was nowhere NEAR going through a reed every 2 or 3 songs like James Cotton! More like every 2 or 3 months.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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sonvolt13
137 posts
Jun 13, 2013
3:20 PM
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When I saw Cotton about 2 years ago he was using the seydels. Darryl Nullich sat next to him and would hand Cotton the key he wanted. He struggled at the gig and couldn't finish solos. This concert was a cautionary tale for me regarding hard breath force. Besides the obvious downsides (possible tone issues, breaking harps) can hard breath force be sustained as one ages? I feel soft breath force is the best way but certainly respect those who disagree.
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tmf714
1799 posts
Jun 13, 2013
3:57 PM
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@sonvolt-what about Chris O'Leary? I know he blows pretty hard-how do his harps hold up?
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sonvolt13
138 posts
Jun 13, 2013
4:13 PM
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@tmf, play however you want, shake your shimmy. As for Chris, he is my cousin so I know Cotton is one of his favorites and that Chris plays hard. The last time I saw Chris at a family function he mentioned that he blows out a lot of harps, including an MBD I gave him ( I prefer sp 20s.)
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garry
408 posts
Jun 13, 2013
4:13 PM
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the last time i saw cotton, he played a single set of harps. they seemed to all survive the gig.
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MP
2775 posts
Jun 13, 2013
5:09 PM
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Five draw is the most common fix i run into. A and D harps are the most common repairs because blues in second position is often in E (A harp)or A (D harp).
this is not surprising to me because the five draw bend is not even a 1/2 step. it just sorta bends into a very blue note.
next comes 4 draw. it's a very popular reed to break.
next is 4 & 5 blow.
if i remember correctly, i read on Joe Spiers site that a blown 4 draw is what he sees most often.
when i used to play whammer jammer every gig i would kill the 9 and 10 blow in a maddening routine.:-)
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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Miles Dewar
1469 posts
Jun 13, 2013
8:37 PM
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This reminds me of the several posts on here about Breath Control.... all that jazz about how Cotton doesn't suck hard, and is really sucking softly...yadayadayada.........
Maybe we'll hear someone push an argument that Cotton is just a skeevy, lying bastard who is just pulling our leg... or that some other forces are to blame for his harmonicas breaking.... or any number of outrageous claims about his *true* playing technique.
Last Edited by Miles Dewar on Jun 13, 2013 8:38 PM
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SergZZZ
69 posts
Jun 13, 2013
9:55 PM
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We must play with a clean mouth. If you have recently eaten rinse your mouth before the game. Corrosion fatigue endurance reed sharply reduced in a hostile environment.
+ There are so many ways to prolong the life of the uvula and its hardening.
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www.ermonica.com
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GMaj7
231 posts
Jun 14, 2013
6:28 AM
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There are a few things a player can do to prolong reed life. Practice a little with a tuner - I know.. a what???? Yeah, a tuner.. Take off the sunglasses and you might notice that you really don't have to play that 5 draw as hard as you think to get the sound or note you are looking for.
Also, there seems to be some success with reed polishing where the mill mark at the base of the reed is removed thus eliminating a starting point for reed fracture. I can't say for sure it works, but I've been trying it on recommendation from Eugene and Seydel and it sure seems to be on the 30 or 40 I've done so far.
CERTIFIED BLUE MOON HARMONICAS REED TECHNICIAN
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Honkin On Bobo
1130 posts
Jun 14, 2013
8:57 AM
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HA!! That post made my day Mark.
i guess Cotton needs to work on his technique, ya know the whole not waking a baby in the next room breath force.
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STME58
463 posts
Jun 14, 2013
10:46 AM
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This discussion reminds me of beginning brass classes, when the students are told not to puff their cheeks when they blow. Someone will invariable bring up Dizzy Gillespie!
Bottom line is, if something is truly is working for you, there is no need to change. But if you are just learning, it might be wise to try what instructors are saying first.
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1847
826 posts
Jun 14, 2013
10:48 AM
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i agree with harpaholic and garry
he is exaggerating.
not saying he is not hard on them
but 2 or 3 songs... come on get real
seydel makes one of the longest last harmonica's in my experience. . also the manji and lee oskar
are known to last a fairly long time.
the harps that go out the fastest are
hohner cross harp
hering black blues
bends juke
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PASS THE HAT
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MP
2778 posts
Jun 14, 2013
12:45 PM
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For what it's worth, this is not the first time i've read about Cotton blowing out harps like a guitarist will break 08 or 09 gauge E strings shredding on his axe.
i may be just a stock thing Cotton says. i dunno. it looks good in print. even so, i have no doubt that he used to ruin his harps with joyous aplomb. i did it for, i kid you not, for decades. even when harp prices hit the $20 mark and it was getting really expensive; even that didn't stop me.
one day i noticed i didn't break reeds anymore and i'm not convinced it is because i play softer. if anything i hit harder lately.
i think it is because my technique doesn't rely on floor board wails-as much as i still dig them.
That is one of Cottons trade marks. Draw bend like all hell is breaking loose. :-)
i used to work w/ sheet metal. bend a sheet back and forth enough times and it fatigues.
using that analogy to a little one two hundreth of an inch thick reed and the thing is gonna develop a stress fracture.
i've noticed that if someone sends me a harp and a reed is a 1/2 step flat- i don't even bother tuning it. that guy is dead or dying and out it goes.
just because you break reeds doesn't mean you're a bad person. :-)
i'd trust Gmaj7th advice. he knows what he is talking about.
have a good morning. see yah. Mark
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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HawkeyeKane
1769 posts
Jun 14, 2013
1:10 PM
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"i think it is because my technique doesn't rely on floor board wails-as much as i still dig them. That is one of Cottons trade marks. Draw bend like all hell is breaking loose."
Have you found any evidence of the wail-bends in any number of Hohners you've repaired recently, Prados? ;-)
I agree with Mark. The going consensus, for whatever reason, on the topic of blowing out reeds is that it's a result of using too much air and playing too hard. Well, I'm of the same school of thought as Mark on this one. There are other factors involved.
One of mine is that a lot of my playing style is single-note riffing which stems back to my days playing trumpet. As Mark pointed out, wailing bends are an integral part of my playing style in a rock band. And I probably use my main harps two to three times more a month just from gigs than the average player. Serg points out that food caught in the teeth is a hazard, which is why I almost never eat right before a gig (but also because I get heartburn more these days after I eat).
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Hawkeye Kane
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1847
831 posts
Jun 14, 2013
1:21 PM
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when he played hohners they were tuned to just intonation.
he was already pretty close to a half step
out of tune to begin with...wouldn't take too much
to blow out 5 draw.
not sure if he is using a stock 1847
or if he gets them tuned to just.
i would think they would be cause that is what he is used to.
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PASS THE HAT
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jim
1434 posts
Jun 14, 2013
1:37 PM
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Blew out several superlow brass reeds (seydel Favorite, top octave).
A couple of brass chromatic reeds. Also top octave.
And, of course, 4 draw on my first Alabama MS. It did have pretty strange scratches inside... someone tuned manually it before I bought it from the shop.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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MP
2781 posts
Jun 14, 2013
2:10 PM
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gouges can't be a good thing being as they are at the stress point of the reed.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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Rick Davis
1955 posts
Jun 14, 2013
2:20 PM
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OT--
Tim, if you are suffering from heartburn go see your doctor and ask for Omerprazole. I know this sounds like a drug ad, but believe me, it works. It is prescription strength Prilosec. It kills heartburn, I mean it ENDS heartburn. I have never had a drug work so well for anything.
I had heartburn nearly every day of my adult life until the day after I started taking this drug, about 3 months ago. Zero side effect, and it comes as a very cheap generic drug.
To make this relevant to blues harp... I used to fast for EIGHT hours before gigs because playing could cause indigestion. No more, all that is gone.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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Harpaholic
213 posts
Jun 14, 2013
2:53 PM
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the 1847 Silvers SS reeds and reed plates are identical to
the 1847 classics.
I have three classics, they do choke up with too much force because of the tight tolerences, but the SS reeds hold up well.
I did blow out a four draw on a c harp after three years of use, not like birthday candles.
I sent my A harp to Joe Spiers to retune, he said the SS reeds where a MF (so to speak) to work on and he will never do another one.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Jun 14, 2013 3:24 PM
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jim
1435 posts
Jun 14, 2013
3:13 PM
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I find SS reeds way easier to work on.
They stay in tune, and their shape stays consistent. Though I must say I do work in quite a different manner from many other builders.
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Harpaholic
215 posts
Jun 14, 2013
3:22 PM
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Jim, I had it retuned to 7limit JI as I do with all my harps, would that make it more difficult than say a sp 20?
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The Iceman
910 posts
Jun 14, 2013
3:37 PM
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I breathe the harmonica...I don't suck and blow. When I teach students, I suggest they follow this format, but I always say "unless you want to sound like James Cotton. He uses force, not finesse in his playing. It's effective, but not the direction I enjoy."
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The Iceman
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Harpaholic
216 posts
Jun 14, 2013
4:41 PM
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I know what your saying Iceman, but you know and I know you can't breathe a 3 draw bend down 1-1/2 steps
Its obvious blowing out reeds on a regular basis is do to a lack of skill
and technique, unless your James Cotton (if you buy the story).
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Rick Davis
1958 posts
Jun 14, 2013
4:59 PM
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I have no reason to doubt what James Cotton says. He is 77 years old and has nothing to prove. He's one of the best of all time. What possible reason could there be for him to lie about this?
The people I tend to think are lying are those who say they NEVER blow out a reed and get all superior about it.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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Harpaholic
217 posts
Jun 14, 2013
5:42 PM
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I'm not saying he's lying, maybe stretching the truth?
He may have done it at thirty, but at 77 its not reasonable.
I've seen him three times live, and actually played one of his harps. I was in the front row at a small venue in Tahoe, I waved my harp in the air, and he handed me his mic and harp right out of us mouth, I didn't hesitate, I played it. What was weird at the time is the harp was upside down.
My point is, I've never seen him have any issues with his harps during a show. Not saying he doesn't.
Rick said: The people I tend to think are lying are those who say they NEVER blow out a reed and get all superior about it.
I would like to meet the person that NEVER blows out a reed!
I'm just saying, I blew out more harps as a beginner than I do now.
If that makes me superior, I can live with that!
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The Iceman
913 posts
Jun 14, 2013
5:48 PM
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Harpaholic sez " you know and I know you can't breathe a 3 draw bend down 1-1/2 steps"
Only you know and I know? Dave Mason, for sure.
Other than that, please don't be so presumptuous with statements about me ..
Truth be told, I do "breathe a 3 draw bend down 1 1/2 steps" as well as teach all my students how to do this...total beginners learn the technique and control their bends within 2 - 3 weeks. It's finesse, not force. My bending approach and technique has been discussed in other threads on this list.
Look'em up if you have the inclination.
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The Iceman
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jim
1436 posts
Jun 15, 2013
6:36 AM
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@Harpaholic:
if you want to retune brass, it will take 3-5 times to tune it. And it will go out of tune anyway.
I start with a blank reedplate, random blank reeds (i.e. not the same pitch and length that you would think I should take), and then make my own reeds, and tune them by polishing the reed while it's still not on the instrument.
It results in way superior steel reeds, and you will never those results by starting with a stock reedplate.
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