Is there a big diffrence between those two amps?? I try to find a good amp and it is very hard, i had a 72 princeton reverb and it was awesome for the tone but not loud enough.. I tried a 1968 super reverb but it didnt have any bass. I tried an ga-30 1953 and again the tone was awesome but not the volume.. I NEED HELP!
In terms of volume....yes, there are differences between the two, but not as significantly different as the respective cirtcuitries and speakers.
Bassman has 2 channels, Normal and Bright, and a Presence control. It comes stock with the (IMHO) lackluster Jensen reissue alnicos.
The HG50 410 has only one channel, no presence control, and it comes with a pair of Weber alnicos in addition to two of the same Jensens found in the Bassman.
There's also a bit of preamp differences that can lead to differences in tone and volume depending on what tubes you choose to load the amp with.
If you have a major music retail store in your area like a Sam Ash or a Guitar Center, I'd recommend you stop by there and give a Bassman LTD a try. You won't find an HG50 in the same manner, but at least it'll put you in the same ballpark on what the volume can be like on it. ----------
I've played both amps and I own an early Bassman reissue. Both are fine harp amps.
A used Bassman RI will cost you less but will likely require some tweaking. A new or used HG50 will likely cost you more but will be plug 'n' play. If you like fiddling with amps (like I do) then the Bassman will be a better choice.
The Fender Bassman reissue is the amp most often used by working harp players. The downside of both amps is the weight. My Bassman weighs in at 63 pounds, and I can tell you that gets old fast.
Are you sure you need such a monster? There are some really good midsized amps that are bigger than the Princeton Reverb and smaller than the big 4x10 amps. They are capable of filling a room with fat tone. Many have a line out jack for PA support.
Wich amps are you talking about??(mid size) And i had a bassman reissue but it wasnt warm enough for me.. dont know if an atenuator would help to get warmer at a lower volume. I aleo have a harp break now. I saw something great on kijiji: a 5f6a bassman clone point to point.. Any ideas?
As I said, a Bassman usually requires some tweaking. If the Bassman RI you had was an LTD version it had the new Jensen P10R speakers which can indeed sound shrill. The early Bassman RI amps with the blue frame Eminence speakers sound better.
There are LOTS of resources out there for info how to turn a Bassman RI into a good harp amp. I have some stuff at my blog, but I got much of my info from the Green Bullet Mics website.
The HarpGear HG50 is a great amp, so are the '59 Bassman RI and LTD. Either is a great choice for a harp amp. In my experience if you change V1 in a Bassman LTD to a 12AY7 then you're good to go. Like Rick says there are many mods online for the Bassman RI and LTD. Of course if go the HG50 route, then you don't really need to do any mods.
Like Rick says though, are you sure you need a 4X10 amp? The Princeton Reverb is a great harp amp (my personal favourite all time amp for harp). I know a guy who has a Mission 32-20 and he loves it. Then of course there's the HarpGear Double Trouble which is a killer amp too. Plus many more. Also don't forget the Lone Wolf Harp Break and Harp Attack pedals, DIgitech RP pedals that Richard Hunter uses or the Holmes Harp Commander. WIth those you just plug direct into the PA and you're good to go. The choices are numerous.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 26, 2013 10:20 AM
I agree with Kingley. The Harpgear Double Trouble and HG35 are good mid-sized amps. If you can find one, a used Sonny Jr Super Cruncher is good. The Megatone ME-18 is really fine, but quite expensive at $2K.
Used Fender silver face amps can sound great for harp,and the prices have not really sky-rocketed like their other vintage amps. The SF Deluxe reverb can make good harp sounds with some tweaking. A Fender Blues Jr or Pro Jr can sound good. It really depends on how much you want to fiddle.
The benefit of tinkering with the amp is that you are more likely to get the exact sound you want (if you keep at it). The benefit of buying a custom harp amp is that you don't really need to tinker at all! Up to you.
This tinkering can range from simple tube and speaker swaps to taking the amp to a tech for circuit changes.
However, the HG50 can be more feedback-prone if you are not familiar with it. It is also very pedal friendly if that that is your thing, I used it with a Kinder AFB and occasionally a Harp Break with good results.
Aside from a little delay, I prefer to pretty much plug and play now, so the Bassman has been my main gigging amp for quite a while. I also use a Sonny Jr Cruncher for smaller gigs, which is a fine mid-sized amp and may be an option worth considering.
A new Bassman RI weighs in at 53 pounds. Mine is heavier than that because of the two ceramic speakers I installed. Big magnets. I put caster wheels on the amp, still it is a beast to schlep to gigs and back. But the tone is worth it. Maybe...
I think the basic HG50 is around 45 pounds. Not bad. The Mission 32-20 I have (a 1x12) weighs about 35 pounds.
I don't know how much my 6-watt vintage Marvel amp weighs, but it feels like a feather compared to all of 'em and has more soul and crunch than any amp I've ever heard. But it won't gig.
Chinaski, that sounds great!
Here is a short clip of me playing the Bassman a while back:
Chinaski, yep, that is the good one. Nice playing. Mud Morganfield comes to Denver frequently and my buddy Al Chesis & The Delta Sonics support him. Good stuff, always fun.
Thanks alot for all the advices.. I think i'll go and try the point to point 5F6A bassman clone and we'll see..! Rick, you bassman sounds awesome..! What are the mods..???
Fender '59 Bassman Reissue amp. It dates from April of 1991 by the production code. I paid $500 for it in October of 2011 and made the following mods:
The preamp tube lineup right now is 5751, 5814a, and 5751. The 5814a is a military 12AU7 tube. I’ve tried nearly every combination of tubes possible in this amp and this setup produced the tone I was after.
The circuit mods to the amp include some tone cap replacements and a bias trim pot for the power tubes which are biased rather cold. The power tubes are Tung Sol 6L6 and the rectifier is a vintage 5R4.
A big part of the character of the amp is the two Eminence Lil’ Buddy speakers installed in the bottom of the cab. These speakers are very efficient and have a deep and colorful tone. The other two speakers are original Fender Blue Alnico.
I use a Kinder AFB+ pedal to help control feedback and an MXR Carbon Copy delay pedal to fatten up the sound.
That is pretty much it. Oh... two coats of Minwax Polyshades Satin Classic Oak stain on the tweed.
bazzzzou, one small tech tip: You will need bigger plate load resisters for the preamp tubes if you use the 5814a tube. This tube (and the 12AU7) draws more current than other tubes in the 12--7 family, so the ¼- watt carbon film resistors in the stock Bassman get stressed, sometimes burning open and causing a nasty hum and damaging downstream components. Mention it to your amp tech. It is an easy fix.
Some players never do this mod and everything is okay. It is a good idea if you have the chance to do it, though. It will save problems down the road.
As for the price of the amp, I did get a very good deal. You see these older Bassman RI amps for around $500 from time to time. A more typical price might be $700. Don't be afraid of some wear or dirt on the tweed -- that just gives it mojo. Stain over it with the Minwax and it looks cool. This amp is a player, not a vintage show piece.
The upgrades on that amp set it apart from a lot of other Bassman R/I amps-one of the most important being the point-to-point wiring-that is a very substantial upgrade,getting rid of the PC board=PIO {paper in oil}caps are another-and the Weber copper cap rectifer is a great addition as well. Finally,I think I see a bias pot there as well. All in all,you could not ask for a better harp amp for the money.
Bazzzou, that looks like a great deal.! It will likely still need some tweaking. Try the tube combinations I suggested and see what happens.
As far as the solid state rectifier, if I were you I'd throw that thing as far as I can. I don't care for them. Early Bassman reissue amps (like mine) came with solid state rectifiers like that and the first thing most harp players do is replace it with a real tube. I use the 5R4 tube. The original 5F6A 1958 Fender Bassman circuit had a GZ34 tube rectifier. You can also use a 5U4 (very popular for nice sag) or a 5AR4.
The Weber Copper Caps are a full wave solid state rectifier -- a couple of diodes and a resistor inside a tube-shaped copper housing. If they get too hot the solder joints can melt sending high voltage to the copper tube. If you touch it you can shock the crap out of yourself. This is not a problem with glass tubes.
Some players -- particularly guitar players -- like solid state rectifiers because they stiffen the tone somewhat and make the amp slightly louder. But louder is not really a pressing need for a Bassman amp being used for harp.
dropped two big magnet speakers in and the 2 jensen equivalents.
There are a few other minor changes that are related to things that Mark Burness (5f6h) suggested (he has a nice list). These are pretty easy to do because of the point-to-point wiring. The adjustable bias is nice because it makes it easier to change power tubes and to run them a bit colder (warms the tone up) than a guitar player would like.
you can clip out the bright channel as it is often too edgy for most harp players, then if you want bridge (but volume in both channels still interacts)
never had trouble with the solid state rectifier, after 5 years of use, but might try a tube some day just for fun... wonder if it needs to be biased or plug and play like the preamp tubes for the most part?
I don't use the rollers but invested in a walmart luggage dolly to wheel it around
"As far as the solid state rectifier, if I were you I'd throw that thing as far as I can. I don't care for them. Early Bassman reissue amps (like mine) came with solid state rectifiers like that and the first thing most harp players do is replace it with a real tube. I use the 5R4 tube. The original 5F6A 1958 Fender Bassman circuit had a GZ34 tube rectifier. You can also use a 5U4 (very popular for nice sag) or a 5AR4.
The Weber Copper Caps are a full wave solid state rectifier -- a couple of diodes and a resistor inside a tube-shaped copper housing. If they get too hot the solder joints can melt sending high voltage to the copper tube. If you touch it you can shock the crap out of yourself. This is not a problem with glass tubes."
Depeds on what cap is in there- Weber makes them to replace all popular series i.e.GZ/5AR4,5U,5Y etc.I will try to get a closer look.
The copper caps are reliable,and do have nice sag.
As far as getting jolted by that cap-if you are clumsy enough to touch that thing while the amp is live{I dont see how you could with the back panel on}you deserved to get shocked.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 28, 2013 6:07 PM
Sag is the drooping of power supply voltage in response to large transient signals. It only happens in big class AB amps. It presents a very nice compression effect.
Solid state rectifiers (diodes) have no sag -- zero. So, to artificially emulate sag you have to add two resistors in series. Weber uses two 5 to 10 watt resistors ranging from 47 to 120 ohms, depending on which rectifier tube they are trying to imitate.
The sag from real tube rectifiers sounds more organic and is more sensitive to your playing dynamics. It is as distinct as the difference between solid state amps and tube amps. The vacuum tube does not use up current energy to heat a resistor. The tube has a more natural tone because it more efficiently uses power available from the power transformer.
Some people who like solid state rectifiers say they are more reliable, but it is true that tube rectifiers rarely fail.
It is important to know that sag is also generated by your amp's transformers and filter capacitors, not just by the rectifier you choose.
I prefer tubes for their organic tones. Putting a solid state rectifier in a big class AB harp amp is a step away from that.
Since we are talking about rectifiers and sag, I should note that one of my harp amps has a solid state diode rectifier and it sounds great!
It is a class A amp: The 1964 Marvel has a half-wave diode rectifier. It is not a Weber thing; it is just a diode soldered on the circuit board. Small single-ended amps do not get sag, since they are always pretty much cooking on "High" anyway. The amp sounds awesome. But no sag, so this is not an issue.
tmf, in your comment above you said this: "one of the most important [upgrades] being the point-to-point wiring-that is a very substantial upgrade,getting rid of the PC board."
But your Harpking amp -- the one you tout as being by far the best harp amp in the world -- is not point-to-point wired. It is a printed circuit board amp.
Changing a Bassman from PCB to point to point doesn't make a very big difference in tone. Unless you're changing many components for better quality ones. What it does do, is to make the amp somewhat easier to work on in the future. The biggest single changes a person can make to a Bassman is to change the valves and speakers. After that tweaking the circuit can be beneficial. Having said all that though, I personally believe that the Bassman LTD with a 12AY7 in V1 is a good amp and doesn't really need any further tweaks to it. I have played through quite a few Bassman LTD amps and never once experienced the shrillness in the speakers that some people refer too.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 29, 2013 6:35 AM
I would kindly ask that you point me to a post where I stated the HarpKing is by far the best harp amp in the world.
After owning three HarpKings and servicing them myself,I am well aware it is a printed circuit board-John built them that way after building a few handwired units that had some issues. He figured there waa less to go wrong with the PC board-especially considering the weight of the 6-10 being bounced around travelling from gig to gig.
And believe it or not,the PC board amps sounded better when A/B' ed against each other.
The Fender Bassman RI is not built like a HarpKing-unfortunatly,there were a few design flaws with the flimsy Fender PC board,and the reverse holds true for the Bassman R/I-point to point wiring actually INCREASES reliabilty,and alllows for easy modification to the chassis.
I think its silly to suggest otherwise.
Edited for spelling.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 29, 2013 6:44 AM
tmf714 - I don't think anyone has suggested that swapping out the PCB on a Bassman to point to point doesn't increase reliability or make it easier to work on.
"And believe it or not,the PC board amps sounded better when A/B' ed against each other."
I've heard that mentioned before about the HarpKing amps.
@KIngley-I would agree,except for the early Bassman R/I amps-the point to point kits usually include a bias pot,and when used in conjunction with tube sustituttions,can greatly affect tone.
@KIngley-my post about the board was in reference to:
"tmf, in your comment above you said this: "one of the most important [upgrades] being the point-to-point wiring-that is a very substantial upgrade,getting rid of the PC board."
tmf714 - Yes, biasing any amp will have an affect on it's tone. The bias pot just makes that process easier. It's not really what I'd class as part of "the circuit" though. It's a bit like adding a line out. It's more of a "make it more user friendly "mod, than a direct circuit mod in my opinion. Personally I believe that bearing in mind most people aren't tech minded. The changing of valves and speakers are the first things I'd recommend people to try when wanting to alter the tone of an amp. DIfferent speakers can really make or break an amp.
No doubt about the speakers-but garbage in garbage out still holds true.
I removed the blue alnicos that came with my R/I which are touted to be great speakers. I installed 4 Jensen reissue P10R's,and they sounded fantastic. And the bias pot is most certainly part of the circuit.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 29, 2013 7:04 AM
"No doubt about the speakers-but garbage in garbage out still holds true"
tmf714 - I'm a little confused by that comment Tom. I wouldn't ever say that any of the components that make up a Bassman RI or LTD are "garbage". I know of many players who use the blues alnicos that came stock in the 90's Bassman RI and the stock PCB and they sound great. I also know of many players that use the Bassman LTD with it's stock speakers and PCB and also sound great. We will have to agree to disagree about the bias pot. You view it as part of "the circuit" whilst I view it as more of a "user friendly add on" to the circuit.
"DIfferent speakers can really make or break an amp."
What comes out of those speakers is largley dependant on the players technique,micrphone choice and abilty. Hence the "garbage in,garbage out analogy.
If you simply install JUST a bias pot,which I still would consider part of the circuit,you may call it an add-on. If you install a complete Hoffman kit,like I did,the pot is part of the circuit.
You do understand why they added the bias pot to the LTD right?
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 29, 2013 7:39 AM
tmf, switching to point-to-point wiring will not fix any of those "flaws."
If the lack of a bias trim pot is one of your "flaws" it is easily and inexpensively fixed. Changing to point-to-point wiring to fix that is like trading in your car because you got a flat tire. It is absurd.
Point-to-point wiring in and of itself does not make an amp sound better. Many of these amps were assembled by hobbyists from kits. Anybody who has ever tried that knows it is a bitch to chase out all the noise. Wire dressing and pathways are critical. A point-to-point amp is no better than the tech who assembled it.
Even John Kinder utilizes printed circuit boards in his Harpking amps. I think you are chasing your tail in this little debate.
"What comes out of those speakers is largley dependant on the players technique,micrphone choice and abilty. Hence the "garbage in,garbage out analogy."
Tom, whilst that is of course true. It's hardly relevant to the discussion is it? I mean we could argue that same point all day long about harps, mics, amps and effects. The discussion at hand is about the Bassman amps and the Harpgear HG50 not playing technique, mic choice or ability. Like I said we'll have to agree to disagree about the bias pot. Even in a Hoffman kit, it's an addition to "the circuit". The circuit is a 1950's 5F6A, which didn't have a bias pot built in when Fender originally designed it to the best of my knowledge. So therefore in reality it's an "add on" no matter how you look at it.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 29, 2013 7:52 AM
@Rick-You tell me how the original Bassmans were wired-
Point to point wiring is a kit Rick -it comes with caps,filters and resistors that were made to mimic the original. It's not just "wiring"-My kit was instlalled by Chris Davis,guitar tech for Hall and Oates-John Oates said it was one of the best sounding Bassmans he had played through during testing of my amp. Again,I told you WHY John uses printed circuit board-are you not reading my posts?
You are asking,and I am supplying answers and valid support-now stop being so silly Rick.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 29, 2013 8:09 AM
