"DO you think an amatuer guitar or harp player is really going to notice the difference betwwen original P10Q's and reissues? Hardly."
tmf714 - Tom, did I at anytime suggest changing out reissue P10Q's for originals? No I didn't. What I said was ""DIfferent speakers can really make or break an amp". Now if a player for example replaces Alnico's with ceramics, the difference to an amp's tone can be quite large. It's been well documented by many players that mixing speakers in their Bassman amps has had a big effect on the tone. I'm sure even Kim, Rick and any other "name" player you care to mention would agree.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 29, 2013 8:20 AM
"Now if a player for example replaces Alnico's with ceramics, the difference to an amp's tone can be quite large"
One would have to be quite inept to replace Alnicos with Ceramics-It would never happen with a Bassman,which is what we are talking about in this thread,correct?
Please dont try to tell me someone would take a good set of working vinatge P10Q/R speakers and put Alnicos in-thats is just absurd. "It's been well documented by many players that mixing speakers in their Bassman amps has had a big effect on the tone. " Mixing speakers as in smooth and ribbed cone,,different size magnets and brands yes -otherwise,you would have to provide proof to back that up.
Sonny Jr started mixing Alnicos and Ceramics in his 4-10-fairly sure he was the first to do so ina production amp. But thats not a Bassman,which is what the discussion is about.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 29, 2013 3:02 PM
The question got me thinking. Why not survey what the dedicated harp amp builders are using? These people have devoted years to fine tuning every aspect of a tube amp for harp, including the speakers; why not take advantage of their expertise? Surely their choices must count for something. They presumably tried, and rejected, many speakers before choosing the one(s) they did. So I gathered as much information as I could, either from the builders' websites, or from other sources if the websites weren't there or were short on speaker information. I had a look at these amp builders:
Buffalo Fat Dog Harp Fanatic Harpgear Holland Kendrick Kinder Marble Meteor Mission Serrano Sonny Jr. ThunderHarp
I looked for magnet type, speaker manufacturer and speaker size. I know there's many more speaker parameters I could have looked for, but they're not so easily found. I wasn't even able to get complete data for the limited areas I looked in. For some amps (Harp Fanatic, Kendrick and Mission) I wasn't able to find ANY speaker information, though the Harp Fanatic builder's website did show a photo of the back of the amp-- two blue frame speakers on the top, two different blue frame speakers on the bottom. They look to be ten inch speakers, by the photo.
If anyone reading this message can help me fill in the gaps, or correct mistakes, I welcome that. I'm talking about other researchers, or, better yet, builders or owners of the above amps. Also, if you feel I've missed some "harp dedicated" amps, feel free to add to the list. One that gets a lot of mention by harp players was the Victoria 4510 (Bassman Clone), but I didn't include it here because it was not built specifically for harp.
Here are the results:
MAGNET TYPE-- 5 Alnico, 4 Ceramic and 2 Neodymium magnets SPEAKER MANUFACTURER-- 4 by Eminence, 5 by Jensen, 3 by Weber SPEAKER SIZE-- 7 eight inch, 13 ten inch, 7 twelve inch and 1 fifteen inch
The best modern speaker for harp is a 10 inch alnico magnet speaker if widespread use by the dedicated harp amp builders counts for anything. I acknowledge that many amps mix speaker sizes. The most popular manufacturer is Jensen; except if you eliminate the European amps (Marble and Serrano), Eminence comes out the winner. The European amps uniformly preferred Jensen ceramic amps, and skewed the results. So, focussing on this continent, the most popular modern harp amp speaker is a ten inch alnico speaker made by Eminence.
I have to note, though, that two of the best American harp amp manufacturers are mixing magnets and manufacturers-- I'm talking about Sonny Jr. and Harpgear. I respect them both. What I've taken from them is the advantage of mixing types and brands of speakers to get tonal richness and complexity. Fat dog mixes magnets too-- two tens, one alnico and one ceramic. I think I'll try this in the course of modifying my 1995 Blues Deluxe, which is too harsh with its one 12" speaker.
I'm no expert, but have read enough to know that the best speaker for one amp may not be the best for another. The speaker and the amplifer have to match each other. Translation, there can't ever be one universally accepted "best speaker" for harp amps.
That said, I want you to see a couple of quotes that resonated with me as I did my research:
Brian Purdy talking about Harpgear amps: "In the 10" line I love the Weber 10A125-0 speaker over everything I have tried in that size"
Sonny Jr. talking about the Sonny Jr. Four Ten: "We use the Weber version of the P10Q (10A125) on top, one speaker having a smooth cone which gives a warm smooth sound, and the other using a ribbed cone, for more bite and attack. For each of the bottom two speakers I use a large ceramic Eminence which just fills the house with bottom end and fullness."
If you're interested, here is ALL of the information I was able to find in the areas I concentrated on
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 29, 2013 3:07 PM
"One would have to be quite inept to replace Alnicos with Ceramics-It would never happen with a Bassman,which is what we are talking about in this thread,correct?"
I have not said that anyone SHOULD change ALL the Alnicos in a Bassman to ceramics. What I have said is "DIfferent speakers can really make or break an amp". If a person for example mixes speakers in a Bassman they can make a significant difference to the tone. That fact is well known. As for providing proof of that , a very quick Google search will give you that. Rick Davis has even mentioned it his blog with regards to a Bassman. There are whole threads devoted to it over on www.thegearpage.net and www.ampgarage.com to name just two sites that refer to it. Now you can cite as many facts and figures as you like Tom and chase this dogs tail round and round all day. The inescapable FACT is that changing speakers CAN make a big difference to the tone of an amp. In this particular case the '59 Bassman RI and LTD. If you don't believe that then ask Bruce Collins, Mark Burness, Skip Simmons, Dave Kott or Gary Onofrio this simple question "Can changing speakers or mixing speaker combinations in an Bassman RI or LTD make a difference to the tone?" I'm pretty certain that they will confirm that it can.
"Really? "Now if a player for example replaces Alnico's with ceramics, the difference to an amp's tone can be quite large""
Where in that statement does it say all the speakers? Like I said Tom ask all the top harp amp guys the simple question "Can changing speakers or mixing speaker combinations in an Bassman RI or LTD make a difference to the tone?" and see what reply you get. Now as far as I'm concerned this discussion is over. If you wish to continue down this "troll" type road then feel free to do so. I will not be partaking in that event myself.
Rick. The copper caps do not sound different from tubes. I have tried them and measured them. They have built in voltage droppers who create sag. I understand that the amps with sag sounds better in your opinion, but not all people do that. The same for the Harp King. it does not be the best amp for YOU. But a lot of people like them, some of them are professionals.
IMO sag sounds good in recording amps and for small Lo-volume gigs.
And the MarkB's 5F6A modifications are made for sounding best in combination with solid state rectifier. It's made for be a good sounding work horse with a lot of volume if you want it. In fact i have compared it with some of the most well known harp specific amps and it's the loudestamp -and best sounding amp IN MY EARS! Maybe not in your ears? If you put in a rect-tube with higher voltage drop than a GZ34, in my Bassman with Marks modifications, you get a fuzzy,muddy amp.
arnenym, the original legondary tweed Bassman amps had a tube rectifier. Adam's great old 50s Bassman had TWO rectifier tubes, although he has removed one of them.
As I thought I made clear, I prefer solid state rectifiers in some amps and tubes in others. When it comes to sag I definitely prefer the dynamics of a real tube and not artificial emulation. But it is not something I get all worked up about. Just my personal preference.
But I am a little confused by your comment. First you said the Weber "copper cap" does not sound different than a tube, and at the end you said they sound very different. I agree they sound different.
My Bassman is very loud and certainly not fuzzy or muddy. I worked a lot with Bruce Collins to get it the way it is. I'm happy with it.
Is it throwing gas on this fire to mention that they originally used 2 rectifiers to reduce or eliminate sag? Then went to the 83 tube, which has no sag?
I don't understand the idea that class A amps have no sag, please elaborate why Rick.
As far as HarpKings. For me it is the ultimate harp amp, by a long shot. It was obviously developed with chromatic playing in mind, that's where the "by a long shot" is coming from for me. JMHE though. In the wrong hands the HK makes for an extremely painful listening experience and I've learned to swap to a weaker mic before letting someone else play through mine. When the amp is set for a chromatic to punch through, you can't grab your D harp and just start wailing. Well you can but it hurts. They have a lot of power and you need to be responsibly aware of it. I don't screw with the knobs for different songs, and I don't normally use a volume control. I am the volume control. And I only like the hottest most toneful cartridges.
Technique developed by playing on stiffer high powered amps, such as a BF Bassman or Blues DeVille can be a bit different than how most people learn to play amplified. You learn to make your own "sag" by attacking the front of the note, then immediately backing off the air slightly, for dynamics within the note itself.
"I don't understand the idea that class A amps have no sag, please elaborate why Rick."
This is a misconception, regarding real-world practice. All amps with non-regulated supplies (basically ANY tube amp that has ever been mentioned on this list with respect to harp) sag when driven. Class A push-pull amps are very rare and even those that may not sag, only exhibit this characteristic within their clean rated output. Irrespective of bias conditions & design philosophy, all amps have resistance in the power supply, which will cause sag with a big enough current draw.
If I blow a long chord into my Kalamazoo, through a hot mic, the sound will fade out to eventually no sound at all. Is that sag or something else? Discovered this once when tuning a harp, it doesn't do it with normal use. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
It may be the preamp not being biased cold enough to cope with the big signal from a hot mic (5VAC+?).
A lower mu tube will have a bigger voltage swing capacity, but if the one that is in there sounds good & copes in normal use, there is no real reason to change it.
With a very big signal & a sustained note I'd guess there is some sag taking place, even if not the primary cause of this particular symptom. Preamp tubes don't contribute greatly to overall power supply sag unless you have a lot of them, or an under-designed power transformer. It's the power tube plate current draw that causes the majority of sag. ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
Mark-what are your thoughts on combinations of different speakers,i.e. Alnico and Ceramic,as pertains to the Bassman R/I amp?
I consider it sacrilage to swap out the vintage P10Q/R from the original 5F6 units-unless they cant be reconed of course-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 30, 2013 11:42 AM
fwiw a bias pot is just a variable resistor in the place of a fixed value resistor, so barely counts as a modified circuit.. or if you do it right you use a fixed resistor with it so you cannot git it way out of range of where it should be...
Like I stated earlier-if the amp did not come with a bias pot,its a mod no matter how you look at it-whether in the form of a complete Hoffman kit,or a stand alone bias pot,but especially as it pertains to the Hoffman kit,which is a comlplete circuit modification.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 30, 2013 12:12 PM
“Mark-what are your thoughts on combinations of different speakers,i.e. Alnico and Ceramic,as pertains to the Bassman R/I amp?”
Hi Tom, if an amp came with USA Chicago Jensens, or the blue Eminence alnico 102s, then I’d be reluctant to suggest changing them out. The Italian RI Jensens can be overly scooped in a bassman (maybe better in a Concert, Super Reverb, Deville) & lack some “body”, but how you tube up/bias the amp may mean you can work with them?
Personally, I’d prefer to sub out the RI Jensens and use different speakers (whether alnico/ceramic), 2-3 for character/voice, maybe 1 or 2 higher efficiency but darker/more neutral speakers for low end & “throw”?
I tend to look at speaker models individually, rather than focus too much on magnet material, also RI amps also vary wildly in B+ voltages, so there is always an amp and/or player somewhere bucking any trend ;-)
That's a fact, I helped Mr Microphone with the Filisko teach-in at SPAH. He had an unmolested early RI BM there that sounded incredible with no mods, other than a rectifier tube in place of the SS plugin. All AX7's, and we had it on 4 with no feedback in the little room. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Harpwrench, class AB amps draw a lot more current at full power than they do at idle. Sag occurs because the amp runs short of power during those big notes. In small class A amps that is not the case. They are pretty much always cooking on high.
Here is a link. Take note of the explanation for "squish" which can occur in smaller cathode biased amps.
@harpwrench: "That's a fact, I helped Mr Microphone with the Filisko teach-in at SPAH. He had an unmolested early RI BM there that sounded incredible with no mods, other than a rectifier tube in place of the SS plugin. All AX7's, and we had it on 4 with no feedback in the little room."
That is exactly the way Mark Wenner of The Nighthawks sets up his Bassman RI. Deak Harp has said on Facebook that he also plays a stock early Bassman RI. I've seen Nic Clark get outstanding LOUD tone from a stock Fender Deville 410. Some players are just super-human.
tmf, let me retype this very clearly for you: I *CLEARLY* said I dislike solid state rectos in Bassman harp amps because of their sag tone. I *CLEARLY* said I like the half-wave solid state rectifier in my vintage Marvel amp, SINCE THE AMP IS NOT CAPABLE OF SAG.
Rick. It maybe be something wrong in my english gramma. I meant a copper cap sound the same as the tube they should replace. I.E. My 5 different brands of GZ34 and a WZ34 sounds the same, My wy53Gt sounds the same as my RCA 5y3.. And its the same with 5U4GB and 5u4GB.
In a Mark B modded Bassman do a SS rect do a better job than a Rect tube because the circuit is made for it...
I have a lot of opinions of speakers but we take that in another thread. this thread is a comparison of HG50 and Bassman. I say Bassman is best.
Never will understand why some people get defensive, argumentative and downright uncivil when expressing opinions regarding what starts out as an innocuous question. Seems like we should be better than that. But what do I know? I'm just a harmonica player. ---------- LSC
Thanks everybody for all these answers! It was very informative and interesting.. I'll post a video after the mods! One last litle question, is it a bad idea to put a master volume on my bassman?? Or atenuattor! Thanks alot again!
@bazzzzou-you can get the same effect by bridging normal 1 and bright 2 with a jumper cable. You may or may not like it-if you do not like it ,simply unplug the jumper. It's not a true master volume,but may work well with the hand wired circuit.
@rick: regarding the sag pedal, the fender mustang series of modeling amps have a sag control as one of the many things you can adjust in custom settings. i played with it a bit when i got mine, but didn't really know what i was listening for.
garry, how do you like that Mustang amp overall? I ran into a guy in a music store in Sacramento who wailed on a Mustang III amp. Keep in mind this was recorded with my phone....
