Lots of debate on the forum about bending with the tongue vs. bending with the throat. I want to share my experiences.
Keep in mind this is coming from a lip blocker. I am not a pucker player because my mouth never takes the kissy shape. Imagine you are about to fall asleep in a chair and you jaw drops open just a little...then put your harp in and play in this relaxed position. Using facial muscles is a detriment to your playing. The back of my harp is tilted up..way up. Why would you not want the center of air pull ..the throat..aimed at the center of the opening of the hole being played? A vacuum hose is it's best if you aim it directly at the object to be vacuumed instead of away from it. First of all, yes, the tongue will move if you bend from the throat. However, the muscles used to move the tongue are in the throat. Keep the tongue relaxed. If you bend from the throat, this enables you to keep your jaw dropped at all times, tongue out of the way, and a big open mouth. We all know this makes for a deeper, richer tone. If you bend with the tongue, your bends probably have rich tone, but the unbent tone probably is not as rich because you move the tongue up which shrinks the size of your resonator (oral cavity). Do a draw bend and try releasing into the unbent pitch WITHOUT moving the tongue. This will tell if you are bending from the throat. Imagine a golf ball holding open your throat. Once the throat muscle has developed, the control is amazing. I don't know how you could do throat vibrato without being a throat bender. Throat bending makes it very easy to go between the 4 pitches of the 3 hole draw, while maintaining a sweet vibrato and the same depth of tone for each pitch. My guess is that if you draw bend with the tongue, then you are probably one of the people that blow bends by hinging the jaw closed. It works but you lose tone depth and pitch control. Watch the great first position players like Mitch Kashmar and Jason Ricci. They can wail between the 3 pitches of 10 hole blow with great control and vibrato. You will never see their mouth close to get a blow bend. Throat! If you want to overblow and overdraw with a big fat tone, pitch control, the ability to bend up 1/2 steps, and have a sweet vibrato at the same time...bend from the throat. I don't claim to be a great player but I doubt you could tell my overbends from any other note based on tone and timbre. Overbends now come as easy as any note. It takes a LOT of work mind you. You must focus to keep the mouth very open and relaxed at all times. It is all about reshaping the throat. Did you ever wonder how Jason moves so quickly between OBs,OD,s Blow bends, Draw bends, and unbent notes? He could not do this if he totally reshaped the mouth for each type of note. Watch his throat. Throat bending makes the size of your resonator larger which means less force is needed because more air is available to you. Playing from the throat also allows for very emotional playing. Growls,stagger vibrato, wailing between pitch is awesome with throat bending. Keep in mind I am not speaking to full time tongue blockers. I do TB octaves and splits most every song my band plays...... this is for puckerers, pursers, and lip blockers.
@harpdude: As usual, your experience matches mine almost exactly. I especially like your discussion of why we lip blockers are NOT "pucker" players. Have you seen the recent series of videos by David Barrett where he exhibits the "tongue block trainer" learning device? I actually have had the thought to make one of those myself, and make a series of videos using it as a "lip block trainer". In the last year or so, I have taken it upon myself to actually learn Tongue Blocking (more than just the octaves I had been doing all along). Unlike others who have delved into TB from LB playing, I am not a "convert". I do have a wider opened mind, however, and a better understanding of how the techniques can produce the same, and unique, sounds. One thing I've been doing is really paying attention to throat position during bends in both TB and LB, and I must say that your post describes my findings perfectly. Further, I have started incorporating valved bends into my repertoire (in addition to overbending), and I can confirm that valved bends are achieved with the EXACT same technique I use for normal bends and overblows (from the throat). I have made the rough cut of a video about valved bending where I describe this in detail, but I haven't had time to edit it down and post it to YouTube. I've actually got a series of videos made in rough form, but not edited (how to make and apply your own valves, blutak tuning, and a bit more on bending). I hope to get these all up in the next few weeks, as these topics have been burning a hole in mind! :)
Anyway, thanks for posting! Very informative, as usual! ----------
I throat bend on the three draw on all my harps and on the other holes too when playing on higher harps (d and above)...I didn't realize this till later (2 years ago) when I was trying to teach people. I think tongue block bending can be more accurate simply because its TOO easy to bend with the tongue when lip pursing...You can get carried away so easily wavering between pitches, searching...so I found (subconsciously at the time) that "Throat" bending was like splitting the difference. Great topic. Meow
Catfish great subject forgot to mention the top end...Yes on any small reeds/higher thats what Im doing. Thank you for noticing. Always great to be in the company of Mitch also!
"I am not a pucker player because my mouth never takes the kissy shape. Imagine you are about to fall asleep in a chair and you jaw drops open just a little...then put your harp in and play in this relaxed position."
That's what pucker-playing is. Pucker players don't actually play with the "kissy" shape. ----------
Hey Isaac! Great to hear from you man! I always enjoy your youtube vids and look forward to hearing about valved bends!
Thanks Moon Cat! I learned a lot from listening to you and more when I started watching close. I knew there had to be a reason the 10 hole blow sounded so fat!
Hey time...I can't link you to it at the moment but there are instructional videos that teach puckering or pursing by starting with the kiss shape.
If you tilt the harp up with the kiss shape all holes are blocked.
Other techniques work great for many players styles. I just wanted to present this one.
I love this topic, harpdude61. You say you are not talking to full-time tongue-blockers, but as one, I say you are. I am also a "convert" from lip-blocking. Anyway, everything you are saying (except, for me, the tilting of the harp) applies equally well to tongue-blocking. This is a topic that I have not heard discussed by the on-line teachers, but I think it is a key concept that deserves more attention from teachers and learners. I believe it is the secret to big tone. Throat-benders unite! ----------
As far as Mitch Kashmar goes,his jaw is dropped beacuse he tongue blocks all the blow notes and bends on the upper register-one of the few players who does so.
Here is Lee Sankeys excellent video on this subject from almost 1 year ago-
@harpdude: "However, the muscles used to move the tongue are in the throat."
I don't think so. The throat muscles are independent of the tongue muscles. I talk about stuff like this with my student who is a dentist. We get into musculature a lot and he gives me his knowledge of the mouth, tongue and throat based on his medical studies.
If your bends are based on believing the throat moves the tongue and the throat creates the bends, I salute your success.
I am from the other camp and love teaching beginning students to bend to pitch with ease within a week or two using the tongue approach. Remember, as a teacher, I favor concepts that have been proven effective and quick with many years of experience in this area.
How would you describe to a beginning student how to bend with the throat? I'm always open to new concepts. ---------- The Iceman
I agree 100% Anyone with a basic understanding of anatomy/physiology will tell you the same. I don't believe that anyone can "throat bend". I am quickly finding that the harmonica world is as steeply rooted in old wives tales as badly as most every commercial gym.
-Carl
Last Edited by CarlA on Mar 04, 2013 6:19 PM
@tmf714, you've gotten me curious about something... do you think that it's true that most tongue-blockers don't TB the high-end blow bends? As a 99.99% TB'er, I always have (well, once I converted from LP'ing, at any rate), and at this point can't imagine not doing so. It just seems to be such a natural thing to do (given that I'm TB'ing everything else) that I just can't imagine that most other TB'ers would revert to lip pursing for those occasions (though I could certainly be wrong).
@yonderwall-you would be surprised-Kim Wilson,Rick Estrin,Jerry Portnoy just to name a few,lip purse the blow bends-Mitch just has the most sweet high register blow notes and bends I have ever heard-he tells you why in the vid.
I dunno if this is right, but I have always thought the tongue IS a muscle, rather than a lump of flesh driven by muscles somewhere else. I don't think I believe in "throat-bending" as a concept distinct from "tongue-bending". I think it's about perception, but you know, I'm prepared to be proven wrong. Dave Barrett has apparently been working with a guy using an MRI machine, to scan him while he bends notes, so when that study is released we'll be able to see exactly what happens in Dave's head when he bends. Would be interesting to get someone who thinks they use their throat to undergo the same scan. Until then its kinda hard to know...IMHO of course ----------
Last Edited by SuperBee on Mar 04, 2013 6:40 PM
Every time I have had an MRI I was told to take off everything metal in another room. I assume it is like putting a spoon in a microwave. I cannot have a MRI anymore because of a metal plate in my throat. I wonder how they are able to get around this.
Yes, indeed. The tongue is the most amazing and versatile muscle in the human body!
Howard Levy worked with Dr. Hank Bahnson in the medical lab and there are some interesting videos on youtube using scopes and scanners of a hospital showing what goes on w/tongue and mouth while Howard plays harmonica.
As I've stated before, I believe that the "throat benders" are simply bundling two separate sets of muscles into one in their minds and are not aware of it.
However, like you, if they can tell me how they teach a beginning student to "throat bend" and have quick and consistent success with this philosophy, I'm all for learning something new. ---------- The Iceman
@tmf714 - that is surprising! (though obviously interesting information). I once asked Steve Guyger after a show if he was TB'ing the high-end blow bends and he said that he was, so from that point forward I just assumed that everyone did (I was obviously wrong; though I still imagine that there must be a fair number of us... it can't just be Steve, Mitch, and me :)
@SuperBee - I think you're right, the tongue is (from what I gather) a "very complicated" collection of muscles. I also agree that what most people (including myself) will call "throat bending" is ultimately just us using the back portion of the tongue (which extends deep, deep into the throat), rather than the more forward portion (which we typically think of as being "in the mouth").
I think it really boils down to where along the tongue you create the constriction to drive the bend. I can't imagine trying to bend that 2- (or 1-) hole on a low-F without going farther down the tongue into the throat.
So many of the best players use TB and single note technique interchangeably in order to get what they want from the harmonica.
I teach students both techniques and tell them that you should be able to pick and choose as you go - not to commit fully to EITHER ONE WAY OR THE OTHER (unless you choose to do so after learning both techniques). ---------- The Iceman
Some of yall's crazy, this is for sure a real thing, its the same type of movement you make when tongue block bending from the same place only while pursing...and you can see/demonstrate to yourself or others the muscles working differently and or separately when you do it. I'm not hip to anatomical accuracies and/or which muscles are connected/included/grouped together and all that but you can definitely bend different ways and "Throat bending/tongueblock bending" SURE feels,sounds and appears in the mirror to be from further back in my mouth and throat. Feels like a tongue block bend without my tongue moving back like a "lip purse bend". Like I said I wasn't even aware I was even doing such a thing till two years ago....This is most easily seen in this case scenario here, Exhibit A: Several students of mine could barely bend, they were lip pursers, when I was teaching them single note tongue block bends later on, they were INSTANTLY able to bend tongue blocking because they were bending like this all along. These students were employing a different sort of bending then the average lip purser who later struggles to bend tongue blocking. They were bending instinctually as if they were tongue blocking while employing the only embouchure they knew (pursing). Its a good thing to think about and try whatever your theories are. Meow Meow to the Meow Meows.
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Mar 04, 2013 9:11 PM
BTW I agree whole heartedly with The Iceman's last statement. This approach is standard for the old kick butt chromatic virtuosos who never much argued over embouchures but rather saw them as means to an end with different advantages and disadvantages...If you wonder into the "Old Timers" rooms at Spah you'll see on their sheet music different passages designated for pursing and TB's..It's just natural to them and it's no different for diatonics either. Kudos Larry!
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Mar 04, 2013 8:49 PM
No matter what your life experiences have taught you, just because you have not done something does not mean it does not exist. With no harp in mouth can you go aahhhh---eeee by opening and closing the throat.... or kuh kuh kuh If you reshape the size of your throat opening the tongue has to move. If you bend your elbow your hand moves even though you use no hand muscles. When Buddha was about to build my harps and I played for him, the first thing he said is you are a throat player. This is real y'all. It IS the way a lip blocker/purser can get the same big tone as TBer. It is the only way to control the high end blow bends without closing the mouth.
ICe...going aaahhh and reshaping the throat is how to teach someone to throat bend. Can you do throat vibrato? I stand by my elbow/hand analogy. You cannot open/close throat without tongue moving...but you can move tongue without the throat doing much.
But why does that make the throat responsible for the bend? Are you sure you aren't just talking about "breathing from the glottis" as JimiLee says? If I pick up my beer and move it to my mouth, by bending my elbow, am I elbow drinking or hand drinking? ----------
Bee, I don't get the logic in your analogy. Yes...the throat for sure. I can watch my Adam's Apple move in the mirror while doing bends.I can feel the throat muscles opening, closing, and reshaping.
With practice you can bend from the throat without the tongue moving at all.
I promise this is not a joke that me, Isaac,So n So, and Moon have contrived to upset the balance of harmonica theory.
@harpdude DON`T DO IT! It´s like banging the head in the wall. I´ve been trying to say the same thing for some time but iceman refuses to belive that throat bending exist AND he sure as hell gona say to the rest of the forum that he is right and everyone that don´t do it his way i wrong.
@superbee That´s just ridiculous.
I both pucker and TB. In fast passages i play pucker BUT my tone gets thinner. Chicago style shuffle i always TB to get deep rich tone. My way of throat bending is a slow, controlled, throat vibrato and that´s all it is to it. If you can control your throat vibrato to do precise "steps" the you can bend with a fully open mouth cavity and with excelent speed. I´m not there with the speed yet but i´m on my way.
dude, you are so missing the mark. I never insist my way is right and everyone else is wrong. I offer choices and back up my conclusions with real time results with real people over many years.
harpdude....in regards to your comment "No matter what your life experiences have taught you, just because you have not done something does not mean it does not exist."
For your information, I did the aahhh-eeee throat orientation bending over 20 years ago - it's just that I've discovered something that works much better.
OK, here we go...
with no harp in mouth, going aahhhh-eeee. It is the tongue that moves and creates the change...not the throat.
For instance, I can go aahhhh-eeee with my throat open and get a full bodied vowel sound. Then, I can go aahhhh-eeee and keep my throat constricted and produce a tinny pinched sound. In both instances, I still create the aahhhh-eeee sound without actually moving the throat muscles.
As you stated, you cannot open/close throat without tongue moving...so, it is the tongue moving that creates the change. Once again, bundling the throat together with the tongue as one movement would lead one to an incorrect conclusion as to what is moving which.
For so many years, the aaahhh-eeee approach was the only one out there to lead players into bending technique. As I remember, it took a long time of "aaahh-eeeeing" before bending and controlling the bend happened - with myself and a lot of other guys learning this 20 - 30 years ago.
I even started teaching using this outdated approach and found that students would struggle for weeks and weeks until they found they could bend. Then it took a long time after that before they could totally control them.
Common theory at that time was "Well, you gotta keep at it for a long time. Don't give up."
This wasn't good enough for me. I was looking for a faster track in teaching the technique as well as refining my own control over creation of these notes.
I learned a lot from eastern philosophy and martial arts about minimal motion to create maximum effect. Also I learned to unbundle muscles and examine each movement separately.
The beauty of martial arts and t'ai chi are that all the movements are studies in minimalism - like Japanese Caligraphy and those simplified line paintings. Minimal energy used, maximum results obtained.
I applied this to self examination of throat, neck, tongue, lips, shoulders, diaphragm, and muscles used throughout these areas, eliminating unnecessary muscle impulses over time until I reached what felt like the bottom line - minimal muscle movement to create maximum results.
I began to teach total beginner students from this starting point and have found maximum success with minimal time spent by the student to easily and confidently bend notes - controlling them completely and to pitch - within one or two weeks. This is something that used to take months if not years with the aahhhh-eeee approach.
As a teacher, I am being paid to get the student to his destination using the shortest route possible. I always tell them that they can choose the short route or the long one. If they choose a long one, that just guarantees me more money spent on more lessons to achieve their goals, so I tell them I am happy with whichever path they want to pursue. I also tell them that the long path will feel more frustrating to them (and myself) and be more expensive in the long run.
To date, all my students have opted for the shortest path up the mountain.
Now, I understand the human response to defending a position that they've invested a lot of their personal time in achieving and promoting - mostly because that is the way they were taught. However, to let this go in favor of something that may be more correct and has proven totally effective in the field through teaching can also be a liberating "rebirth".
However, the choice is up to each of you which path you prefer up the mountain - short or long - keeping in mind that both paths will get you to the top. ----------
Last Edited by The Iceman on Mar 05, 2013 6:26 AM
Although I have the feeling that this thread may be going down in flames (I'm having vivid flashbacks to the original "Hip Hop" thread where it was me and MrVLUN against the world!), I feel that I have to jump in to help clarify some things.
First, I think the discussion of throat vibrato in comparison to this technique of bending from the throat cannot be understated. This is a CRUCIAL connection, but one that, it seems, is often totally misunderstood, and I think, mistaught. Let me explain. When I was learning throat vibrato, almost ALL the material I could find (books, videos, weblogs, forum discussions) talked about it as a kind of staccato effect: "uh, uh, uh, uh". They would say things like "open and close your throat, rhythmically", and things like that. The only other advice was "once you get it, then just smooth it out, and you'll have it!". Now, this is exactly the approach I took, but I think it's the wrong way to go about it. Let me tell you why.
First, this way of learning vibrato got me really confused as to what vibrato actually IS. Strictly speaking, the advice above does not produce vibrato (pitch variation); it produces tremolo (volume variation). I'm not going to get started into the other misuses of these terms in the harmonica world, but suffice it to say that what you really want from this technique is true vibrato, and not tremolo. Now, I should say that it IS possible to produce true vibrato from the throat, and THIS is where the connection to "throat bending" lies.
Think about your throat vibrato. Is it smooth? Can you hear pitch variation? Pick up a harp and do it. Go ahead, I'll wait....... Now, pay attention to the part(s) of your throat that are participating in this effect. Put your thumb and forefinger on either side of your windpipe, just above your voice box. Do the vibrato again. What do you notice? If you are doing it right, you will feel a slight pulsing under each finger. What you are feeling are some throat muscles moving to create a series of shallow bend, and THAT'S the muscle movement that you need start controlling for throat bending.
Now, about the involvement of the tongue. I do not doubt for one second that the tongue is involved in all of this. It has to be. The tongue is MUCH bigger than anyone typically thinks it is, and it is connected WAY further down in the throat than you think it is. Think of the tongue as an iceberg. The part you normally think about is just that small fraction of the iceberg that's above water. Paying attention only to that part ain't gonna save your Titanic. You need to be using and controlling the FULL length of the tongue, especially the deep down parts of it. Those parts play a big role in throat bending, because they are IN the throat! Consider the movement you make when you go to the doctor with strep throat, and she takes a tongue depressor and wants to look down your throat. You know, that movement you make to really open up your throat so she can see down in it? That movement is part of throat bending too.
Okay, so, before the flames start licking around this thread, I'm gonna make my exit with those pieces of advice. I do hope this helps some folks, as I really do think it's been a fundamental flaw/lack in the vast majority of currently available instructional material. Good luck and peace to all y'all! :-) ----------
This is a technique that I have just fallen into over the years in the pursuit of creating an even tone across bent and unbent notes. I am no biologist but agree that the tongue is probably involved somewhere, whatever.
However it is useful to describe the technique as playing from the "throat". Certainly the point at which the bends are activated feel as if they are much further back in the throat, rather than being within the mouth cavity.
And as Moon Cat has pointed out, this is the technique used when bending tongue blocked.
I have found that what it does for me (as mainly a lip purser/lip blocker/whatever) is that it allows less tonal changes between bent and unbent notes, I find it easier to hit and maintain bent pitches. I also find it easier to articulate bent notes and add vibrato and tremolo using the back of my throat.
So IMHO as the OP suggest it's probably worth trying it out.
Throat vibrato may be considered as separate from pure bending.
Once again, I don't like to bundle them, but approach them both individually.
A full bodied throat vibrato does change the pitch of the note slightly. The comment above of vibrato being different from tremolo is pretty accurate.
Once a student has the ability to bend to pitch with ease, I teach him (or her) about vibrato.
The throat will help change the pitch slightly during vibrato, but only because it works in conjunction with the tongue positioning. In this case, there is slight bundling between the two.
Once again, you takes your choice about which path to pursue to the top of the mountain.
One can't really argue against total success at an accelerated rate with beginning students in all these techniques. ---------- The Iceman
ICe! I could not agree more..If you do the ahhh/eeee to bend with the jaw up you for sure bend with your tongue...100% correct
However...now...drop your jaw as much as possible with tongue down and out of the way and the ahhh/eee becomes easy to do from the throat.
I cannot emphasize how important the jaw dropped and total relaxation is to bending from the throat.
I am so confident in what I say here. Remember when the doc told you to open up and say ahhh and held the tongue down with a popsicle stick. He was having you open up the throat.
With the throat you have so much more control over pitch when bending. I have not heard much comment about the blow bends that Moon Cat and I talked about. Non-throat benders...can you control the pitch of the 3 notes available on 10 blow, adding a sweet vibrato, without closing your mouth any? zero..Closing the mouth is cheating on blow bends. You change the resonator size and the tone thins slightly.
I play high end 5th position a lot and the full step bend is the flat fifth while the 1/2 step bend is the major fifth. You do not want to hit the unbent 10 hole blow note on most blues phrases. I cannot perceive closing my mouth quickly to hit these bent notes coming from the root(8 blow) or flat third (9 blow).
I found out something important about the Pharyngeal Voice/Resonator...The pharyngeal resonance is the "POCKET" that you should sing in, it is the MAIN RESONATOR, the "PLACEMENT" of the voice where you can blend the head and chest registers. Although there are other blenders, I find the pharyngeal the more important blender for popular music in general, because it is so conversational.
Listen to Amy Winehouse, Glenn Hughes and Myles Kennedy and you'll realize how much of that resonator they use, and how their voices are free and (sound) strong.
If you do not want this kind of ringing resonance in that big scale, you have to put more texture, or chest resonance, but never taking out the pharyngeal.
The other thing about finding this pharyngeal pocket is that it helps you to SHAPE YOUR VOWELS in the back of the throat, instead of in your mouth. To me, that is really one of the aspects of a good singing voice, when you say "that person can really sing!". If you think about it, the lower in your throat you shape your vowels, the closer it is to the source of the sound, your laryinx, and more space to the "shaped" sound to resonate.
Sure signs you're using your Pharyngeal Resonator/Voice
1. The ability to change vowels without moving your mouth or tongue. (Throat) 2. The ability to connect even more smoothly than before. 3. A Nasal sound is not used. (but can be added later for effect) 4. Larynx can be low or normal. 5. Can be done anywhere in your range. Whether low or high, Pharyngeal can be engaged
Remember the YAWNING technique too :)
Last Edited by Frank on Mar 05, 2013 8:19 AM
I haven`t got anything to add, but just want to say how much I`m enjoying this thread. Some great contributions here and lots to think about. ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
I am a beginner stage player. I have taken lessons and have found the throat bending concept hard to grasp. tongue bending is much easier to learn for me. I have had the chance to play with a few local bands and have found that the crowd just likes to hear good sound and have fun. So for me the tongue works.
I think what you all actually talking about is 'brain bending', right? The premise for this thread is 'lots of debate on the forum....' I musta missed those threads! ----------
I think throat-located bending is actually the uniting principle in the lip-block/purse vs. tongue-block debate. It is certainly possible to get bends using various methods and I'm sure I've run through them all. I don't recall now, but I'm pretty sure that my lip-blocked bending was headed toward a more throat oriented bend already, before I started to learn TB bending. TB bending was what really got me there.
I also think that The Iceman is correct in his principle of minimal effort and that this corresponds to harpdude61's principle of maximal relaxation. I suspect that both approaches should cause the bends to be generated further back in the throat.
The question for teachers is how to convey that to students? If you already know how to bend by lip-blocking, why not invest a bit of time learning to do it tongue-blocked as well? It can only give you more techniques to draw from. And, along the way, you will be introduced to throat-bending if you have not already experienced that. Then choose the method you like.
For teachers of new students, I'm not qualified to tell you how to teach this. ----------
funny...I saw Kim's head drop but not his jaw close. Great job Kim.....and you read Jason's post above. He thanked me for for noticing he was doing blow bends with his throat. Are you calling him a liar? The man knows what he does.
Tim-elf..it was people like you that inspired me to take a little break from the forum. You have not changed. You are one of those people that get's a woody if you can belittle someone or prove your superior knowledge. Why would anyone post a videos as you have and not comment why. You are sort of different. I do hope your need for attention is satisfied n this forum.
Oh well..I still enjoy sharing my journey with those that are interested. I sure appreciate what I have learned from many of you.
Very well said So&So. I'm doing pretty good at TBing to the side, but still not quite happy with my bends. I love my lip blocked tone since I have went to the largest resonator possible and learned to bend from the throat. I told a student of mine the the more your learn about harmonica the more you realize how much you do not know!
Don't know harpdud-but heres what Todd Parrott had to say a while back. "One thing that I have noticed about tmf714 is that when he critiques something, he usually follows up by posting what he believes is a better example, to backup his viewpoint. I can appreciate that as well"
Brain bending mught explain why brain hurts just after skimming over Frank's posts above. The Iceman's comments about unbundling throat and tongue gave me some kind of epiphany. Yes! Now to try and apply...
Last Edited by 