It seems they no longer make the minor tuned special 20s which would leave me down to the marine band or the Lee Oscar. Not a big fan of the marine band as my mustache hairs get caught up in there and pull sometime. Then I've heard complaints on the lee Oskar. Any thoughts? Is the sound really that much better with the marine band?
If you play on tunes that use the natural minor scale, 3rd position can be fine, but when harmonic or melodic minor scales are being used, 3rd position can be very limited in what you can do.
Outside of totally shaving off your moustache, the only way to avoid the hairs getting caught based on my own experience with having moustaches, beards of many types over the years (haven't had one in about 20 years) is to keep it very neat and trimmed 24/7 and don't ever let it get to be a bushy mess and there are many guys that let it get that way and so it is no surprise that this happens.
The only moustache that rarely ever gets caught are the pen line kind, but you really got to be anal about keeping it neatly groomed and trimmed at all times.
Lee Oskars in the minor keys, unlike the way Hohners are, having the keys marked in the cross harp keys rather than the first position (for example, Cm is first position on a Cm harp) with Hohner, and with a Lee Oskar, that very same harp would be marked as Gm, which is the cross harp/2nd position), but unlike Hohner, they are available in natural minor, harmonica and melodic minor scales. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
If you want to stay with the SP20s in minor, this might be an option for you. Call up Ron @rockinronsmusic4less.com. Tell him what you are after and ask him to drop a SP20 off to Gary Lehmann. Gary is known as Gnarly on this forum. He will tune the harp to minor for you. You can contact Gary @ gnarlyheman@gmail.com. Both of these gentleman are top notch and happy to help you.
I bought my first minor a couple of months ago and I love it. Yes, you can play minor tunes on a major harp but the chording is quite different. I like the flexibility to play either way.
I just got a Special 20 natural minor from Rockin Ron a couple of weeks ago. He had it in stock. They are still listed on his web site. Now I have a Lee oscar in Am and Hohner special 20 in F. I like the Hohner a bit better.
I have yet to try either harp in a jam or with a backing track so I am nut sure how the labeling conventions for the two harps work yet.
I have not tried a Harmonic minor yet. I have only seen those in Lee Oscar.
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 01, 2013 9:14 AM
Lee Oskar is the only one who makes them that way as a stock instrument. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I have found that as my moustache has gotten longer, It no longer gets pulled while I am playing. It is long enough to allow the harp to slide to the notes and I feel the pull when I take the harp away from my mouth.
I love my Am LO minor--if it pulls hairs, I just take the covers off and make sure they are seated well by tweaking the cover--once you have a good seal there, no hair pulling.
I can play in third position too--but, for some songs, I just can't beat the sound of a minor tuned harp. . . ---------- Oldwailer's Web Site
I have a moustache but my harp is always back in my mouth below the stach....sam elliots`stach overlaps his lower lip....Im quite sure he would have problems
My Lee Oskars pull my mustache in a different way than other harps. Most harps, it's along the front edge, between the cover and the comb. Like Sp20's, that doesn't seem to happen on LO's. They seem to catch on those funny square cut-outs on the end.
If you keep things trimmed it won't be an issue, and I've found the longer I've played, the less often it happens, even when I need a trim. I suspect I've trained myself to stay away from the holes.
The labeling thing is a pain. Either system is fine, but together they make a mess of things. I've been logging a lot of hours on my harmonic minor lately.
You can get minors from Seydel too. You just need to order it through their configurator on their site. It costs a little more. (You can also get a lot of other crazy tunings, and even custom configure it.)
I love my minor harps. Cannot comment on the moustache problem though as I don't sport one.
An underrated tuning is I think the melodic minor or melody maker. I make my own as Lee Oskar only offer a small range. They are promoted for use in cross harp play for melodies eg Folk, Bluegrass, Country etc. They are not suited for blues. But rarely is mentioned the benefits of being able to play minor tunes in 1st pos. The Lee Oskar G Melody Maker when played in 1st pos is in the key of Am(d). I play tunes like Summertime, St James Infirmary, House of the Rising Sun etc in 1st. Here is an example of a tune that I have heard far better players than I struggle with intonation or have to resort to juggling 2 harps. This is easy in 1st on a MM tuned harp.
@ Orphan thanks! I don't use the standard minor tuned harps, but I am happy to retune harps for folks. I like to try different tunings, and once retuned the Major Cross to harmonic minor--very cool! I'm working on another 16 hole LeGato, a slide version of the Fourkey. Again, much obliged for the props!
Last Edited by Gnarly on Mar 01, 2013 11:50 PM
There's a Welsh folk song called Sospan Fach which is very difficult on a standard diatonic, but which is so simple in first position on a hohner harmonic minor. I really love the opportunities the tuning allows.
i too can re-tune major key harps to minors. for a naural minor you retune 6 reeds but some folks only like 5 reeds retuned. harmonic minors are never requested of me and i think it is because it sounds like sad european folk music.
click my user name for my e-mail ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
"harmonic minors are never requested of me and i think it is because it sounds like sad european folk music."
MP, then you need to play them with more umph! I play a couple pretty upbeat ones on mine. They are pretty easy to play depressed sounding European folk on though, not that there is anything wrong with that. Try a chug line on them though. I do a beat box thing with one tune.
My favorite dichotomy is "there are two types of people, those who divide people into two types and those who don't"
With repect to minor harp and positions, I get Jim's point, but I think each tool has its purpose.
On a song like "Summertime" I like to play it in 3rd on a normal harp because or the expressiveness of the bends available. I also like to play it on a minor harp because is sounds good to me to add in the minor cords. Melodies can be played easily in minor or major on either a minor or major harp, all the notes are there.
If you want to take virtuostic machismo to its extreme, you only "need" one harp and skill to play all 12 positions with overblows.
Jim > There are many types of people & such assumptions as you made are quite fatuous. I understand that some harps might offer an easier option and there is nothing wrong with that providing you can cope with some possible limitations. Of course the best and easiest option is to play everything on a chromatic
Personally, and it depends on the music, I play my standard diatonics in pos 1 to 5 plus at one stage there was one tune I did in 6th & I often play in 12th. I use standard diatonics in the majority for all types of play. I use major cross or mm tuning in bluegrass & country & have discovered their use as a minor harp in 1st pos as being useful on some melodies. I use my Tremolos & my Chroms occasionally &, once in a blue moon, might use natural minor or harmonic minor harps.
Now I certainly have not shirked away from playing 3rd 4th & 5th pos so am not the lazy bum in type 1.
I am also not the great harp player, far from it, that is your 2nd type.
What I find is that occasionally my playing goes through a hiatus. It is good to experiment with other options where a switch to learning some new music on a different flavoured harp sustains interest. ---------- HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
My thoughts on minor keyed harps or indeed any alternate tuned harps.
Yes they can be fun to use. However I'd advise anyone to stick instead to a standard tuned diatonic and learn positions, scales, modes, etc. Simply because if you are in a pinch and can't get access to the alternate tuned harps you want/need for whatever reason. You'll still be able to play the music you want when you want on any harp. If you rely on alternate tuned harps for "your" sound, then there will undoubtedly come a time when you are stuck and can't play certain things due to circumstances beyond your control.
I forced myself to learn 3rd posi to play minor tunes with my band. Now I play a couple in 2nd as well. I have been thinking of getting a minor harp now that I have an interest in learning harpboxing. My rudimentary efforts sound less-bad on low harps like a low D or low C. Just wondering, is it absolutely necessary to have a minor harp to do that beat box thing? Experts?
I will admit/agree. For Harpboxing, minor tuned harps are "the bomb". I attended a harpboxing crash corse by Brandon Bailey. When he pulled out the minor tuned harp and played, I could only say WOW. A minor tune harp is great for harp boxing. ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
I think I heard rod piazza saying in an interview - 'it's only a tiny little instrument, and you have to use anything you can to provide contrast and light and shade'
Personally, if playing in a minor key, which I do a lot with my jam band. I always have two harps on the go, a LO minor and a major in 3rd.
After re-reading your post, I realized I did not answer your question. You can harp-box with regular tuned harmonicas. If you want to harp box a minor tune, it will be easier (better) with a minor tuned harp (my opinion),
@ Aussie
In my book you DO fall into the 2nd category. You have learned and tried the most popular minor positions. Now you want something more. I say, more power to you. (the term "great" is always relative)
@ Theiven.
I understand what your point of view. Get minor harps as needed.
@STME58 I'm impressed you play "Summertime" in 3rd. When I try 3rd, I do not like my intonation on 3draw when I play it in 3rd. I take the easy way and play it in 4th (no bending). Congrats to you on doing it in 3rd. In my book, 3rd has more soul than 4th =============================================== Here's a longer, more detailed, explanation of my opinion of minor harps.
You can play wonderful minor tunes on them. You can do more with them than you can with a regular tuned harp. But I encourage all harp players to try some third position playing in holes 4,5, and 6 so you can play at least basic minor riffs for minor tunes and wont miss out on the fun.
Buying minor harps just to do minor tunes, means doubling the harps you buy, and doubling the harps you carry, for what makes up about 20% (or less) of the tunes most people play.
---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Mar 03, 2013 4:47 PM
Thanks Jim. It's new territory to me. I'll put in an order for a minor harp or two next time I hit up Rockin' Ron. In the meantime I'll play around with what I have...
I am just going to put some of my thoughts on this down because I am sure I will learn something from everyone’s comments.
When I think of position, I think of the key the harp is in and the sharps or flats associated with that key in major. A C harp has all the notes of the C major scale without bending (at least in the middle octave). It also has all of the notes of the A minor scale, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc. . When I think of second position, G, on a C harp, one sharp has been added. I now have to be careful to stay off the F or find a way to bend or overblow to F# to make major tunes work in this position. Going to third position I add another sharp and now have two notes to watch out for. Each position up adds another note to compensate. I am not sure if this is correct application of the term position. If I am playing in A minor on a C harp, I am using all the notes unbent and to me this seems like it is still first position, but in the relative minor key. What position would A minor on a C harp be considered? Conversely, playing in C major on an A minor harp would not require bending as all the notes are there. What position would this be?
Of course the manufacturers can’t even agree how to label a minor harp. My Lee Oscar Am harp has all of the notes I would expect for A minor (no sharps or flats), but hole one blow is D and the harp is labeled 1st Dm, 2nd Am. I would have expected a Bb in a D minor harp(relative to F major). On my F minor special 20, hole one blow is an F and the B, E and A are flatted. Exactly what I would expect for first position F which is relative to Ab major ( 3 b’s). The Hohner labeling system makes sense to me but the Lee Oscar does not. Lee Oscar seems to do something more than just call the harp in second position. Can anyone explain this to me?
Thinking about positions on a minor harp makes my head hurt - I'm not entirely sure that the concept of positions still works with minor-tuned harps
but I think it would theoretically be 6th position?
Assuming that is, you're talking about a LO-designated Natural Minor Am harp (i.e. most similar to a D major).. your root note would be the 3 draw natural - "C". It would lay out nicely, with the only regular bend being the 3 draw half-step, giving the major seventh - which is also 6 draw.
EDIT: I can recall that the reason that LOs name their harps 2nd position because 1st position no longer "works" - though it seems to give more or less the Dorian minor scale
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Mar 05, 2013 10:16 AM
I'm relatively new to playing cross harp, 1 year in April. I dicked around a bit in first position but didnt take it serious. I've really gotten into cross harp and have gotten some offers to play around town which is cool. I'm not where I want to be but I'm working. I appreciate all the advice and thoughts. I don't understand most of it but I'm learning. Please be patient with me as I'll probably be asking some questions.
From what I hear from Jim and GamblersHand, position is about the tonic, not which mode is used with that tonic.
I had considered that each position up would get tougher as you have more notes that need bends or overblows with each advancing position if you play in major in that position. If you change modes, 4th position is just playing the relative minor of the key of the harp. I had not realized that finding 4th position is a good alternative to counting back 3 half steps to fet to the relative minor key.
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