|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Tuning for sweet minor chords?
Tuning for sweet minor chords?
Page:
1
HarpNinja
3129 posts
Jan 23, 2013
6:05 PM
|
If I tune a harp to Natural Minor to get chords, how do I approach tuning for the equivalent of 19LI, but with minor thirds? I would normally play ET, but I want awesome chords.
Thanks!
I have some low Big Rivers I am tuning down, so I am not biting new.
----------
Custom Harmonicas
Optimized Harmonicas
|
nacoran
6425 posts
Jan 23, 2013
8:55 PM
|
That hurts my brain!
Warning: All of the below is just speculation!
I haven't thought about that before, but it might work out to be as simple as tuning each hole the same number of cents off as before (once you've adjusted it to be minor) but I could be wrong about that.
A minor chord is just a major chord with the middle note tuned down half a step, so if you take a 19LI C harp, for instance, and try to turn it into a C minor, and it's got the chord sound you want, the top and bottom notes of the chord would already be tuned to sound good with each other, so the middle guy would be the reed that would need adjusting. I'd start with blue tack and adjust it exactly half step down from the 19LI and see if that sounds right.
Another option would just be to use the same tuning you would for the relative major (which might, for all I know, be the same thing). Use the same pitch adjustments for an A minor as you would for a C major? I don't know if harps are designed for maximizing all the chords or just the I IV V.
Alternately, you could figure out how many cents there are between each note in a in your 19LI, and use that formula.
Or, you could maybe give this site a try:
http://ohw.se/hca/tuning-theory/
The math. It burns!
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
Gnarly
466 posts
Jan 23, 2013
10:36 PM
|
Yeah, he has a chart for minor on this page . . .
http://ohw.se/hca/tuning-theory/#4
|
Zadozica
242 posts
Jan 24, 2013
7:50 AM
|
The Lee Oskar Natural Minor has a flattened 2 blow, 3 draw, 5 blow, 7 draw and 8 blow.
So what you might try is tune to 19JI and then flatten those reeds.
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2013 7:52 AM
|
isaacullah
2283 posts
Jan 24, 2013
8:06 AM
|
I've retuned several richters to Nat. Minor. Seriously, don't worry about the math and just go by your ears. Use your tuner to get you in the ballpark, then check the octaves for beating, and tune slowly. Then check the chords for smoothness, and tune slightly again if necessary. It's actually not that difficult to get the chords sounding sweet. I don't have a tuner that is accurate enough for me to really tell you what the tuning system is that I get to this way, but if I had to guess, I imagine it's closer to 19LJI than anything else.
It helps to use the blutak method, since all you are doing is lowering pitch. Blutak is so easy to adjust that you can really do things by trial and error and not have to worry about. It's how I do any and all pitch lowering these days.
----------
View my videos on YouTube!
Check out my songs on Soundcloud!
Visit my reverb nation page!
|
HarpNinja
3132 posts
Jan 24, 2013
8:23 AM
|
Thanks all for the info. I use a Harp Tuner and generally tune by ear after setting reference pitches. However, I have memorized where those notes should generally be. I wasn't sure if the same math worked for a minor interval or not. I will use a Low E Big River for minor chords 99% of the time. I have a Marine Band in Low E for playing octaves and single note playing, but could get a lot of use of Em chords.
----------
Custom Harmonicas
Optimized Harmonicas
|
barbequebob
2175 posts
Jan 24, 2013
9:52 AM
|
I haven't tuned a minor in just intonation in many years but, if I remember correctly, is that when you tune the 3rd of the blow chord, you would need tune it 16 cents sharp and the 3rd on the blow chord about 14 cents sharp. I don't remember what the 7th of the draw chord was, but I do know it definitely wasn't 31 cents flat as you would with 7LJI in a major, but don't be surprised if you have to tune it sharper than equal, but to you need to hear the note together with the other notes of the chord to where the chord completely stops beating.
If you can get a yourself some older harps that have been out of production for awhile, like a Hohner Orchestra II, which were tuned out of the factory in minor keys, and I'm pretty certain that it was tuned in just minor, you can use that as a guideline.
Get in contact with Pat Missin, who is one of the most knowledgeable people on the planet about harmonicas of all kinds.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
arzajac
971 posts
Jan 24, 2013
12:39 PM
|
http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tun4.html
"(Natural Minor) layout has no consecutive intervals of the same size, so the whole thing can be tuned perfectly in the 5-limit, giving perfectly consonant chords without any huge deviations from 12TET. The 5-limit tuning for the minor triad, assuming that the root is set at zero, places the minor third at +16 cents and the perfect fifth at +2 cents. The draw chord of the Natural Minor tuning actually has two minor triads, the tonic minor rooted on 2 draw and another minor triad rooted on 4 draw. (If your 2 draw is at +/ 0, then 4 draw should be around +2 cents, which means that 5 draw needs to be around +18 cents and 6 draw about +6.). One nice side effect of this tuning is that the major chord in holes 3, 4 and 5 draw also comes out perfectly pure, as does the major seventh chord in holes 3, 4, 5 and 6 draw. You also get a lovely minor ninth chord by playing all the draw notes from holes 2 to 6. These extended chords sound beautifully rich in Just Intonation, in a way that cannot be achieved by any tempered tuning."
----------
|
jim
1371 posts
Jan 24, 2013
12:53 PM
|
Read the Anthology of Harmonica Tunings.
I've got intonation charts there.
----------
Free Harp Learning Center
|
Todd Parrott
1091 posts
Jan 24, 2013
2:32 PM
|
"If you can get a yourself some older harps that have been out of production for awhile, like a Hohner Orchestra II, which were tuned out of the factory in minor keys, and I'm pretty certain that it was tuned in just minor, you can use that as a guideline."
Yep... I have some old Hohner Piccolos that are in minor keys as well, and are tuned to just intonation, but I have no idea how to explain the tuning. These may perhaps be easier to find than the Orchester, though they do show up in Ebay from time to time.
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2013 2:32 PM
|
barbequebob
2177 posts
Jan 25, 2013
7:45 AM
|
Todd, I have a few Piccolos/Vest Pocket models over the years that I always loved for doing the "look ma, no hands" tricks, but I've never encountered one tuned in a minor key so it sounds like they may have been mainly issued in Europe than in the US.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Todd Parrott
1093 posts
Jan 25, 2013
4:02 PM
|
Yes, they probably were European issues. I forget where I found them, but it was somewhere online years ago.
|
HarpNinja
3136 posts
Jan 25, 2013
4:06 PM
|
Tuned the LE to 5LI minor and it is perfect. Thanks!
----------
Custom Harmonicas
Optimized Harmonicas
|
ElkRiverHarmonicas
1482 posts
Jan 25, 2013
6:10 PM
|
When you play a chord of three notes, there are more than three notes that can be heard. There's a lot of stuff. There's a pulse and a tone from the 1st and 3rd. Then, there's a nasty-ass tone from the 3rd and fifth because the E and the G (third and fifth) are pretty close together in pitch. That sound is the exact reason I hate Equal temp harps so much. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. When you increase the distance in pitch between them, that tone is diminished amongst the other stuff.
With a minor chord, you've increased the distance between the third and fifth. That nasty-ass ghost tone isn't there. The reason minor chords tend to sound so much smoother is because of that.
That nasty ass tone in the major chord is the reason all the thirds on the blow plate are tuned flat and all the fifths are tuned slightly sharp. It's not there on the minor chords, thus a whole nuther set of conditions and rules apply.
----------
David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
----------
David
Elk River Harmonicas
 
|
Post a Message
|
