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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Reading music
Reading music
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HarveyHarp
389 posts
Nov 15, 2012
7:03 AM
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Last night, at the Crescent City Harmonica Club monthly meeting, one of our newer members who plays harp and Sax, mentioned that he wanted to put together a project using a horn section composed of two horns and a harmonica. He asked if I knew any harp players that read music. After I told him of the harp players that I knew that did indeed read music, he said that they were all chromatic players, and he wanted a diatonic player. My question is this, unless your are a Howard Levy type, is there anyone out there that playes diatonics in various keys that actually can read music. How would you do that, since you constantly change keys of harps?
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HarveyHarp
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2012 7:04 AM
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HarveyHarp
390 posts
Nov 15, 2012
7:05 AM
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Will some moderator please change my topic to read music? Please!
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HarveyHarp
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HarveyHarp
391 posts
Nov 15, 2012
7:25 AM
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thanks
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HarveyHarp
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bonedog569
719 posts
Nov 15, 2012
8:09 AM
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MIchael Rubin?? I can read (poorly) - which I do at times when playing sax. But fahgedaboudit on harp.
When I needed a 'chart' recently for some trickier harp parts that needed to be exact, I wrote out tab. It was the first time I played harp from a 'chart' of any type - and it worked for me.
This could work for horn charts, though the horn section arranger would have to be a llittle more patient they he would otherwise.
The player (or how I do it anyway) records the suggested horn line, then listens carefully and writes out his own tab. That tab can then be used for the same horn line in different keys. the "I feel good" horn line, "walkin the dog" horn line etc.
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laurent2015
530 posts
Nov 15, 2012
8:06 AM
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Wouldn't it be better that the harp player could compose -or improvise- himself on the background music?
I'm not sure that playing diatonic would fit with an inflexible sheet music (contrary to chrom harp).
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smwoerner
141 posts
Nov 15, 2012
8:38 AM
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I can read sheet music, not fast enough to just pick up a sheet and start playing but, well enough to figure out the melody.
The great thing about transcribing from sheet music is that you can transcibe for the original key (position of your choice) and then just change harps if you want a different key.
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victor
1 post
Nov 15, 2012
9:25 AM
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I read and notate my music on a staff. To handle the 12 keys, I transpose the key I write in as if I'm always playing a C harp e.i. the 3rd space is always 4 blow regardless of position or key of the harmonica. There has long been precedents for this in written music. When a clarinet player plays the note that a piano player reads as C, he actually plays Bb
After doing this for a while sight transposing seems a little more in reach.
Victor
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2012 9:29 AM
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HarveyHarp
392 posts
Nov 15, 2012
10:09 AM
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I play with horn players all the time down here in New Orleans, and I just do it by ear. I just was curious about the reading music part, and how you would do it. I suppose you would have to do a mental transposition.
After we had the conversation, we had the weekly jam session that I attend, and we had two horn players and myself do Jump Jive and Wail, and we all played the horn parts by ear. It sounded great. Heck, at my age, I can barely read and type english anymore, much less music
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HarveyHarp
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Michael Rubin
693 posts
Nov 15, 2012
10:13 AM
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Until you learn to overblow, you can only read the notes available on the harp, assuming you have control of your bends.
If you want the cross harp sound, it is good to remember you can only go down to the 4th below your root and to the 4th above your 3rd highest root. In other words, the C harp starts and end with a C. In the cross harp key, G is the root note. In the G major scale, C is the 4th note. You really only have two full octaves, 2 draw to 9 blow, and some extra notes. Make sure the piece you are working on doesn't fall off the harp.
Then, it is good to remember there is no major seventh in the mid range of the harp. In other words, the seventh note in the G major scale is F#. There is no F# without overblows in the middle of a harp. You can learn to overblow, get a valved harp, a sub 30 or a country tuned harp.
Then, although Eb (one overblow and 4 overblow) Bb (6 overblow) C# (7 overdraw and 10 overdraw)) G# (9 overdraw) are not on the harp, that does not mean those notes are not in the written music. You need to see if those notes are there.
If you have a written music piece with some notes missing, you have to know the layouts of other harmonicas to see if you have all the notes in the piece, but you will lose the cross harp feeling!
If the song is not in the key of G, you have to know the layout of the cross harp harp you want to play on.
OR
You have to know the scale degrees for the cross harp numbers template. For example, in the key of G, G is the first note. Everywhere there is G on a C harp, 3, 6, 9 blow and 2 draw, that is a one. If your song is in the key of D and you want the cross harp flavor, you need to play a G harp in the key of D. Everywhere the composer writes a D note, that is a one. You could therefore play 3, 6, 9 blow or 2 draw and produce the D note. This takes real knowledge of the numbers template and the numbers of each major scale.
OR
You can know the distances between the holes on any harp as measured by the keyboard notes in between them. For example, on a C harp, 1 blow is C. 1 draw is D. That is two keyboard notes higher than C. So one draw is ALWAYS 2 keyboard notes higher than 1 blow. Therefore, if you are reading music and you are playing one blow and the next written note is two keyboard notes higher than the written note you have just read, you can play one draw.
All of this is complex, but if you begin by buying some written music and treating every song like a puzzle to be solved, ultimately you will develop an easy working method.
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2012 10:17 AM
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MP
2557 posts
Nov 15, 2012
11:05 AM
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Boris Plotnikov?
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MP
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you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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nacoran
6202 posts
Nov 15, 2012
12:27 PM
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I can figure out a key signature, which would give me the harp I need, and in the bass clef I can site read the names of the notes. In the treble I can plod through. I haven't ever really tried to combine that skill with the harp though. I learned as a kid playing baritone and as a singer in choir.
I have run across a movable Do system that I think would work wonderfully for diatonic harp. I could draw it out on a piece of paper, but it really would only be useful if it was part of a software program that would easily transpose music. I'm sure some of the for pay programs would do that, but I haven't found a free one that does what I need.
Diatonic harp is poorly suited for standard sheet music compared to other instruments (unless you are playing chromatically, with all the overblows, but even then, it's more complicated. Other instruments see a note on a sheet of music and play the note. They play an Eb when they see an Eb. The fingering is always the same. On harp, depending on what harp you have in your hand, the hole you want to blow is on a different line for each key. Movable Do fixes that. It was used a lot in old Christian hymns, because when you get a group of people together you may have to adjust the key to fit everyone's vocal range.
Another option would be to write out the sheet music, but write harp tab underneath it. When I was learning baritone I used to write the fingerings under each note. The advantage of this is sheet music really has better rhythmic information than standard tab. (That would be a useful app for someone to write, a sheet music to harp tab app!) It would have to be a virtually permanent cheat though. Playing baritone you only ever had to learn 2 fingerings for each note on the clef. On harp you'd have to learn to slide the pattern around in your head for each of the 12 keys.
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Nate
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STME58
285 posts
Nov 15, 2012
1:58 PM
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I have come to prefer sheet music to tabs (I really like having both) The frustrating part of reading music not specifically written for harp is they put in notes I cant play on the diatonic(I'm working on it).
I look at the music and figure out what key it is in, the determing the notes in terms of scale position, like Michael Rubin described above. It is a bit slow and I can't quite sight read like this yet. The harmonica is the first transposing instrument I have played and it has to transpose into all keys depending on which harp you have in your hand.However, once you get the piece down further transposition is easy, just grab another harp.
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droffilcal
32 posts
Nov 15, 2012
2:27 PM
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I am a long time professional trombonist. I read music in all clefs, on whatever instrument I am playing. I have been playing a reggae/dub band where I am using harp for comping and improvised solos -- the lead guitar player quit, so I started playing some of the guitar leads on harp as necessary/appropriate. I learned the guitar parts from the charts provided by the bandleader (of course I already knew the tunes). I play harp on five tunes of the set, and used the following harps: low F, G, Ab, C, Db, D.
Unless you are playing music with a lot of harmonic movement (jazz, Brazilian, etc.) you usually only need one or two harps per tune. I overblow 4/5/6 to get chromatic notes in the middle octave (still working on the overdraws).
I work on reading music on harp by playing through trombone music (usually transposed up an octave), flute music, and standards from the jazz, latin, Brazilian Real Books. This whole practice started with chromatic harp -- since picking up the diatonic, I have largely let the chromatic harp slide......but I see no reason not to continue to read on diatonic.
Since I am a relative novice on harp (about 14 months), if I were to play in a horn section and read charts, I would want to get the charts in advance in order to look them over and plot out my harp choices, switching, and just get the notes under my fingers.
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2012 2:30 PM
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Komuso
105 posts
Nov 16, 2012
3:39 AM
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@Nacoran re: "I have run across a movable Do system that I think would work wonderfully for diatonic harp. I could draw it out on a piece of paper, but it really would only be useful if it was part of a software program that would easily transpose music. I'm sure some of the for pay programs would do that, but I haven't found a free one that does what I need."
Having just implemented a Moveable Do system in software for a prototype music skills app for pre-schooler's I know why you can't find one...it's not that easy to do!
I looked around before I did it and could not find much so I eventually rolled my own. In the end it was one of those simple yet complex things - you end up with something reasonably simple but you can only get there by a bit of sweat first. A straight moveable do isn't that hard, but when you add the La minor system as well as vocal output to sound the notes, with a transpose system it gets a little trickier.
Not sure if I'll add it to HarpNinja though, I'm not sure how many harp players are even aware of the solfege system or its benefits (or lack of them - the battle between fixed and moveable do makes the Hatfield's and the McCoy's look tame)
If you want to outline your idea to me shoot me an email and I'll have a think about it more.
(I'm working on Pitch to Tab for HarpNinja for next update as it happens)
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2012 3:46 AM
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