I pretty much stayed away from here for a year or so, dropped in on occasion to read a thread or two. It is painfully obvious to me that there is an absence of Joe Lee, you guys run him off? did Adam bannish him from the kingdom? did he just get fed up and leave? anyone know? care? I enjoyed Joe Lee's rants and loved his stories, I hope he is well.
---------- Most wisdom I've seen written on a harp forum ever: "The harps voice is so unique that it sticks out like a violin or something. This is fortunate and unfortunate at the same time. If one wants to make the harp really count I think there are many times that one must use it sparingly"<-> Mark Prados
Last Edited by JD Hoskins on Mar 17, 2013 10:36 PM
Something like that, and not wanting to be associated with a den of liberals, to the extent that he wanted the name Joe Lee Bush scrubbed from this site, demanding that we delete all his old posts (which was just silly). So, if you mention the name Joe Lee Bush on this site it might bump him up in the search engines and then his name would come up associated with this site and, unfortunately, since I mentioned the word 'liberal' in this post, he (Joe Lee Bush) will be linked with the word liberal, based entirely on how many times the words Joe Lee Bush and liberal appear closely together.
If it seems like I'm disrespecting the wishes of Joe Lee Bush to not be associated with the word liberal, well, maybe, but I'm not doing it for political reasons. We welcome people of all political persuasions here, as long as they treat each other with respect. He (Joe Lee Bush) left this 'den of liberals' of his own accord because he didn't want to be associated with us on the Googles. What political affiliation has to do with harmonicas, I don't know, but it certainly gave him a case of the grumps.
I wrote down much of his advice. Some of it was pure gold. I was gone for a little while when his dust up happened. I was very sad to see him go. I had already purchased a bottle of liquor to keep him primed at HCH, but obviously he did not make it. For a man with such thick skin for playing harmonica on the street, he had a thin political one. It is too bad, because I thought a great deal of him and wanted to meet him. His Little Walter credentials were neat to hear about too... ---------- Danny
In many ways, I can relate to him because like many pros I've met over the years, especially the old bluesmen, he was blunt AKA brutally honest and often will tell you a truth you may not be prepared to hear, which in many ways, could easily describe myself.
It's obvious his political views are very conservative, wheras I find myself much more moderate as I've found over the years both liberals and conservatives really need to shut up and listen without getting into bullying, and this where a moderate can at least hold back each sides excesses.
I consider myself more of a traditional blues musician, which is more where he is, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate other genres or other approaches, but as I've learned over the years, everything needs some tempering and not everything is gonna work across the board and so one needs to be flexible musically and listen to their music with bigger ears, meaning listening to things in far greater detail and remembering that there's no such thing as a detail too small, too trivial, too unimportant to pay attention to because the things you ignore nearly always come back to haunt you at the worst possible moment leaving you with your pants down and badly exposed. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I don't think the issue is honesty or credibility. I think what turns people off to a personality like that is the perception of a closed mindset.
Bob's comments are wonderful to read here. He's a good example of someone who is honest, credible, and able to articulate where he is coming from with things. That being said, if someone isn't in total agreement, he is able to state his case or opinion with respect to others.
That has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. That has to do with being a decent human being and understanding the difference between opinions and facts. It also has to do with thinking critically about things and having an open mind...Having an open mind has nothing to do with being "liberal". ---------- Mike OOTB Harmonica Price List VHT Special 6 Mods Note Layout Comparisons Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas (Updated 10/25/12)
One thing to put into perspective. What sounds like something being a jerk, when in person, by the way they talk and inflect in their speech, the same words that sound nasty can come off anything but as well as the case in reverse. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
One thing to put into perspective. What sounds like something being a jerk, when in person, by the way they talk and inflect in their speech, the same words that sound nasty can come off anything but as well as the case in reverse. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I met Joe Lee when he came to hear me play a couple of years ago in Atlanta. He was extremely nice and polite and we had a good conversation about harps and things.
JD, I didn't always find that to be the case. It seemed to be the case as long as you agreed with him, but he didn't seem to respect other people's right to have a different opinion than his. Even although it's not in the forum creed specifically, politics can be a hot button issue. If we lose members in a dispute over tongue blocking or puckering, well, at least it's got something to do with harmonica. When we lose members over stuff that has nothing to do with harmonica then we've gotten off topic.
We've lost several members over the years, and even the ones who I've had disputes with I've usually (not always, but usually) managed to avoid badmouthing people after they've left the forum. I guess the thing that sets me off is how in the end he demanded we take down all his posts so he wouldn't turn up in a Google search connected to any of us. I guess I find it kind of silly and absurd. He sure could play though, and I really do wish him all the best.
I claim to be the most far left liberal on this forum...I hope Im not violating the creed....in the biography of little walter joe lee was mentioned....what an honor....again,nobody is as far to the left than me...born that way....peace&joy
My experience with pro harp players has been WAY different than BBQ Bob's. I've met and talked to quite a few, including some old timers, and every one of them has been 100% pleasant.
I have met a few pro musicians (usually guitar players) who seemed eager to tell others "a truth they may not be prepared to hear" but my experience is those guys are usually obnoxious drunks. And I know a thing or two about that.
I didn't get the impression that Bob's statement was specifically harp players, but the elder bluesmen in general. I've heard similar stories from other guys that worked with some of the elder bluesmen. My experiences as a fan has always been positive, but I'm sure working with many of those guys would be different. Bob Margolin,and Steve Freund have both shared stories of "tough love" from elder bluesmen. A friend of mine toured with Albert King, he has some stories. My ex and I attended The Legendary Blues Bands first road gig at a tavern in Seattle back in the day. We had spoken to the guys a little during their break, I had met Pinetop and Portnoy before at Muddy's gigs in the 70's. When we were leaving at the end of the evening Pinetop was at the bar, he practically sprinted across the room to shake my hand and give the wife a peck on the cheek inviting us back the next evening. Nothing to do with anything, but what sweet guy he was. I was just trying to get over my disapointment that Louis Meyer had declined to road tour.
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2012 8:35 PM
I like 'ornery people (is that a word) They stir things up and often do have a way of cutting through bullshit that can be refreshing in this PC world. Although he wasn't hardcase i miss HVJ as well..can never hear a Train or Fox Chase now without reminiscing some. ^
Rick, I was looking at this statement, maybe you were seeing something else-> "In many ways, I can relate to him because like many pros I've met over the years, especially the old bluesmen, he was blunt AKA brutally honest and often will tell you a truth you may not be prepared to hear, which in many ways, could easily describe myself". I believe Bob was Jimmy Rodgers harp player for a while and I think he has worked with Luther "guitar jr" Johnson, Sunnyland Slim, and Lousiana Red among others. No offense, but his experience, like Joe Lee's and Walter Tore, goes well beyond internet forums. 8^)
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2012 9:55 PM
JD, Bob was clearly defending Joe Lee's demeanor in this forum. That is the topic of the thread you started -- What happened to Joe Lee. Others said he was obnoxious. BBQ Bob said he thought Joe Lee was entitled to be "blunt" because he reminds him of old time blues guys. Fine, but I disagree.
I am a political professional. I do it every day. I know all the issues and arguments and all the flaws in all the arguments. I can win any political debate I care to join, especially against an amateur. So, does that mean I am entitled to embarrass every person who expresses a political opinion that may be counter-factual? I suppose, but it would be meaningless and everybody would rightly think I am overbearing. Why bother?
It is the same in any endeavor: Music, cooking, rodeo, whatever. The best policy is to be supportive of others, not so eager to be "brutally honest," especially when that person has not asked for your opinion.
But I must say... It sounds like I could have had some fun with this Joe Lee guy.
as usual Rick I get the sense that you and I are talking about two entirely different things. I have no interest in discussing anyone's politics. My own questions about Joe Lee here were based on my enjoying his non political posts that I recall. They were his often brutally honest critiques of stage presence, fashion, and musical ability. That's the only subject I was privy to personally. I am only interested in the the human nature of interesting characters with interesting life experiences, and of course the music. So any of my comments (if you read them) or any of my questions were about the circumstances of his leaving and as to how he was treated. The politics are of no interest to me at all. My question was answered, and Bob and I have continued our discussion about old "tough love" musicians off line.
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2012 8:50 AM
Everyone, this is starting to get out of hand and it's time to think about putting a muzzle on it before things get twisted and spun totally out of proportion and people wind up projecting their own views in a way that winds up twisting things into something that they're not.
Joe Lee does remind me of the old black bluesmen that I've worked with or met. Some of them were brtually honest, yet they didn't make you feel like they stabbed you in the gut and some really got nasty about it, but from experience, I can tell you this. When I was very young, like more than a few people on this forum and a few others, I'd hate to admit it, but I myself was thin skinned, meaning ANY critciism of ANY kind, I took personally, but from Jimmy Rogers, I did learn that you have to stop taking everything personally or you'll be your own worst enemy, and unfortunately, many people never learn that and become exactly that. Have I been heavily humbled in my lifetime and had my head handed to me?? Absolutely 100% YES!!!!!
Brutally honest doesn't necessarily mean being a jerk but again, the words written when expressed face to face with their voices and how it's inflected came come off far different. I don't go tearing people apart unless it's directed at me, and if I'm gonna do it, you'll KNOW about because you'' get full force of venom and then some and better than half the time, when I read some of the venomous stuff here, which at times resembled Harp-L at its worst, sorry to say, I wind up cracking up laughing because some of you make too much out of stuff that, by comparison to having to first go on kidney dialysis and then a kidney transplant, it seems so trivial by comparison, which is something I've gone thru. A line I heard when I watched the Dr. Phil show one day has more than a ring of truth and that's "What you NEED to hear isn't always going to be what you WANT to hear," and just from my own life experiences alone, that statement is very true.
Do I agree with Joe Lee's politics? Some yes, but mainly not. Politicizing everything is something I've grown weary of and it's becoming the battle of two idiot networks mainly MSNBC and Fox, which I can't stand as it's a battle of the thin skinned and hard liners making a contest of who can be more of an a**hole than the other. The best example of this in this forum and a lot of other harp forums that resembles this are the constant gear threads.
So everybody, do me a BIG favor, SHUT ABOUT ABOUT THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!! God, it's so easy to have "computer courage," which is the equivalent of liquid courage than it is to learning how to listen and be civil and remember no one's gonna agree with you 100% of the time, and neither are their experiences. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
And Bob.... Everybody has the right to hold and express their opinions. Telling people to SHUT UP when they disagree with you is not productive, especially coming from someone who insists on being "blunt" and "brutally honest." If you cannot take it you have no business dishing it out.
I think this forum has become much more civil in the last year or so. I like it. Good riddance to Joe Lee.
Nicely put, Bob. Thanks. I appreciate your insight
I liked Joe Lee. I was considering going to Hill Country Harmonica. When he pulled out, I decided to bail on the event. He is a funny and fun dude. Totally, old school. I like and admire that quality.
How can a person ever improve, if they are always told how great they are? Brutal honesty from people I respect has made me reassess parts of my life. I hope it made me a better person.
I respect guys like Bob and Joe Lee. It's a lot of work to play as well as they do, hustle gigs (which are quite often shitty) and do it over and over for decades. Guys like that offer a unique insight into a world that few ever experience. Blues being a traditional folk music makes those experiences part of the journey.
What Bob, Joe Lee and Walter Tore freely offer and share are experiences that only usually occur when relationships have been developed and trust has been earned. In the real world with the real artists, that process often takes years, those guys give their trust without it being earned and offer their insight freely.
All Joe Lee did was what anyone would do in reality. He said screw it. If people don't value what I have to offer, then I won't offer it up. What he had to offer was valuable and rare. If people don't appreciate it, it is their loss.
@JD - I saw Louis Myers with the Legendary Band, it was great. I was sad to see him leave that group, but happy at the same time. When he decided not to tour, it allowed me to see The Aces back up a ton of people. I can't remember if Steve Freund went with them. I know he was a member of the Legendary Band for a while, I'll have to ask him the next time I talk to him.
@Joe L--A very young Melvin Taylor did that first tour with The Legendary Blues Band and it was a great show, I really enjoyed it. Portnoy stood right next to my chair and played a 36 or 48 bar intro to Snakeskin Strut, first song in their second set. We were front and center table. It was a very memorable night. Melvin Taylor while sometimes struggling a bit for the right moves was a lot of fun and a very impressive young guitarist. It was his first gig with them. They had, if I understood correctly, gone to his house hired him and threw his gear in the van on the way out of town. it was just that I never got to see Louis Meyers play, and had gone expecting that he would be the guitar player. He, Luther Tucker, and Robert Lockwood Jr have always been my ideal of how I would like to play. Like a number of guys, Otis Rush comes to mind, the west coast is a long way from home, and Seattle usually a little less appealing than the southern coast 8^) I did get to see Otis Rush when he was here with Ronnie Earl in the 80's. ---------- Most wisdom I've seen written on a harp forum ever: "The harps voice is so unique that it sticks out like a violin or something. This is fortunate and unfortunate at the same time. If one wants to make the harp really count I think there are many times that one must use it sparingly"<-> Mark Prados
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2012 10:11 AM
Speaking of Robert Lockwood Jr...I was at a Sugar Blue show in a nice little Cleveland blues bar when suddenly Sugar stops the show and proceeds to acknowledge that there was a Master bluesmen in the house. Sugar Blue then begins to sincerely heave Praises onto Mr. Lockwood and thanking him profusely for all he has done for the blues - it was obvious that Sugar was very honored and humbled to have him in the audience and his demeanor when talking about Robert Junior Lockwood was very child like and Blue can be known for being a tuff guy! anyway, that's all :)
JD Snakeskin Strut is the the best piece Portnoy plays-in my opinion. i used to see him with Muddy but it was his recording of Strut w/ TLBB that knocked me out. the intro is priceless! all that 3 draw bend back and forth with slight variations on the theme before he abandons the lick creates serious tension. love it! ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
They say Mr Lockwood bestowed a little tough love on B B King back in the early Memphis days when BB was just an upstart. I met the man briefly, he minced no words.
Mark, I could see that, I think he was a little more restrained with Muddy's band. Even though Pinetop and Calvin Jones were the primary singers in TLBB it seemed Jerry was the bandleader to me. When Muddy Waters did the tour with Bonnie Raitt at the time she had "My Little Runaway" out, Jerry played harp on that and a couple of others. That was the second big impression he made on me, after landing the most prestigious harp gig I could possibly have imagined. But I do agree, Snakeskin Strut is his masterpiece.
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2012 11:49 AM
I dig Joe Lee and don't really care what his politics are. We had many offline correspondences and I do hope to meet him someday. The blues world today is a completely different place than when I was in it. It is like the difference from before the car to after the car came into existance. The scene has changed that radically. There were no camps, seminars, lessons online, videos, computers, etc. You had to hunt down the blues guys on their turf. There was no youtube and internet. Plus 90%+ of guys that frequent these forums would never go to such places and never be on the music scene full time as a player. Now it all comes to you via your computer screen and the newer artists have had very little to no contact with the old blues guys. They also are fighting an ever losing battle with trying to make a living playing music. To say something politically incorrect can really ding your future. I find the scene today to be technically great but emotionally boring. Don't offend, smile, be everyones friend, is todays musicians mantra. The old blues guys said what was on their mind. You had to earn their respect. Nowadays people want to go to open mics, seminars, jam camps and such and basically wank thier horn. They won't go if it means sitting and just listening. that is old school learning. You had to listen, and take the wrath of those guys when they heard you play. Most were kind hearted but they wouldn't lie. Once you earned their respect you were in for life. That often took years to accomplish. Just getting on a stage at a pro jam could take years. Now you pay your entry fee and within hours you are onstage wanking with the current crop of name players. that is of no interest to me. I am at peace in my studio. I come out when the vibe is right but it isn't right much lately :-). It was called an apprentership. Today it is called I pay you, you smile, and tell me how good I am. It is a forced meeting that came via cash. The old guys never charged you to learn. You simply had to become part of their life and it they dug you, they shared not with technical mumbo jumbo, but with their playing. You absorbed it, went home, and played inspired out of your mind. Eventually the moment came where you got to play for them and if it was right, you got on stage with them. Now people come to these seminars, camps, listen some but really can't wait to play. That would never happen back then unless you had earned the right. Now you pay for the right. Like I said that approach is of no interest to me. The whole respect thing is erroding away. There were always people in clubs that all they wanted was to get onstage make noise and feel like a star, and leave when they were done. Fortunately there was very little in the way of places other than basement jams for them. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I know the "old blues guys" are often assigned the rep of being tough but my limited experience as a kid in NYC meeting Muddy (he sat me on his lap), Jr. Wells and Cotton (they each gave me one of their harps), Carey (he laughed affectionately at my infatuation), Johnny Shines and definitely (your good friend and colleague Walter) Louisiana Red was earnest generosity. It was more the adopters (Mayall comes to mind) that were less generous of spirit. Personally I don't feel that Joe Lee's age or blues-cultural background are contextual justifications for his personality. d ---------- Facebook
I used to see Melvin a lot back in those days. He is a great guitar player. He's equally adept at Blues and jazz. It would have been interesting to see him with a traditional band. I saw him play with Sugar Blue one night with Sugar Blue. I think more musical notes were played that night that all other nights combined. It was crazy, but very good.
Most people that knew Robert Jr speak highly of him. Lets be real. He is about as influential as they come in Blues. There was way more to him than the Robert Johnson relationship. He made hundreds of great recordings under his own name and as a sideman. I saw him every time he came to town since the early 80's. I'll never forget the time I saw him at BLUES on Halsted backed by the Aces. That was an amazing night.
I'll never forget the night he died. I was hanging out with a couple of people that knew him. The stories they told painted a different picture of a man who was considered gruff and ornery. He sounded like I man who came up under difficult circumstances, but had a heart of gold once people earned his trust.
Another friend of mine, who is a well respected guitarist told me that Robert heard him at a festival. He offered to teach him everything he knew for free, if he moved to Cleveland for six months. He couldn't go because his youngest child was born. That doesn't sound like a guy who was a jerk and my friend had no reason to lie to me.
Guys like Lockwood never got the fame or probably more importantly, the financial compensation to live a comfortable life. I did not know him personally but have heard he had a day job much of his life. These level guys had people like clapton, etc, come to hear them, study their licks and then make millions by speeding them up, distorting them, and playing to all white teenager/early 20's audiences. This left a lot of them gun shy of people coming up to them about their playing because it usually meant they took it and ran. Once you got to know these guys and were genuinely driven to learn from them, they were the most kindhearted people you will ever meet. Louisiana Red played a gig in NYC one night. He was filling in for Lightning Hopkins who was sick. I was there because lightning would have me play with him. I was really bummed when I saw this Louisiana red guys name on the bill. I stayed and was blown away. I told red this after the gig. He laughed and invited me by his house anytime. I said how about now? He said sure and that is how I ended up living on his couch. I can go on with lots of stories like this with guys like albert collins, junior wells, champion jack dupree, cool papa, sonny rhodes, sonny terry. They all opened their hearts to me and were as kind and giving as one could be. But go there to get your picture taken with them, try to coach some licks out of them to copy, and they could be mean as it gets. Most people are not really dedicated to the music. It is a hobby and some of them want to steal what they can and run. These kinds of people are easy to spot. I learned that from the old guys. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
"But go there to get your picture taken with them, try to coach some licks out of them to copy, and they could be mean as it gets. Most people are not really dedicated to the music. It is a hobby and some of them want to steal what they can and run. These kinds of people are easy to spot. I learned that from the old guys."
JoeL, Walter, nothing but love and respect for Robert Lockwood, if it sounded different than that I apologize. He is one of the very greatest to me, and has been for many years. I was amused and enjoyed the way he dealt with photographers and fans when he played the blues festival here in Everett Wa where I live. It was a thrill to finally see him in person after years of listening to his recordings and studying his playing. Still when it came to folks pointing flash bulbs at him or asking silly questions, he minced no words, I have no problem with that at all.
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2012 9:53 AM
JoeL -Melvin was a kick that night with TLBB, not sure how old he was, couldn't have been much more than barely drinking age I would guess. He was all over the fretboard comping, a few times he would look right at me, shrug as if to say is this working and then roll his eyes as if he was saying what have I gotten myself in to here. It certainly wasn't as if he was at a loss for something to play, but more as if he wasn't sure he was playing what he was supposed to. It was his very first time on stage with those guys, I'm sure it came together, he never sounded bad that's for sure. He shyly hit on my wife a little, I'll forgive that.
Hey, I'd trade you my Melvin Taylor and one of my Muddy Waters, to see Robert Lockwood and Louis Meyers and the Aces, I'm not prone to envy, but that's just too cool!
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2012 10:44 AM
I didn't think that you were saying any negative about Robert. Sometimes, it's nice to hear another side to a story of a man who is as complex as his music. No offense taken.
