***Update: I spoke with Suzuki USA directly. Suzuki USA said they are charging the price they charge on the SUB 30’s based entirely on the pricing they get from the factory in Japan. The markup is no different than the markup on any product they carry.
Richard Sleigh posted this video...
And these comments...
"I sent a post her a couple of weeks defending the price of the Suzuki SUB -30 ($185 US)
I compared the SUB 30 to a Bassoon that cost $36,000. Well.... now I have a new instrument to compare with the SUB - 30. That is the SUB 30 in Japan - 6,480 yen, or $82 US.
I put out a youtube video on the subject : http://youtu.be/GyHagW-8qEU
I want to make this clear - I think that the people of Suzuki Japan are good, honorable people, and I support the risk they are taking in putting out the SUB 30. I also think the SUB 30 has the potential to be a real gift to the harmonica community, opening up new and powerful ways to express the music we hear in our heads and the passion in our hearts.
But I do not support Suzuki USA selling this instrument for more than twice what it sells for in Japan. If you bought one of these harps and want to talk to Suzuki customer service about the price, hers is the number: 1-800-854-1594. I looked for an email of their website and could not find one.
Richard Sleigh"
Can anyone confirm that 1.) this pricing difference is a fact, 2.) that the SUB30 will continue to retail for that price in Japan, and 3.) how Suzuki has responded to the topic?
At $185, the SUB30 does not play as well as a Richter harp as similarly priced customs. While this can be addressed by tweaking, not everyone feels comfortable with that. If you want it to be optimized, you have to put as much work in as an overbend harp, which will play better overall at a similar price point (but you use different bends and technique).
I would LOVE to see a harp like the SUB30 succeed and even move to different brands (probably not likely, though). I would also love to offer the harp customized, and have already started to do so with great results. That being said, if the harp starts at a lower price point, I can offer it at a lower price point.
The SUB30 is a huge asset to harmonica players. Enormous, and its impact cannot be understated ASSUMING it is done right. Currently, there are a couple of red flags, and while I find it imperative that we work with the facts and not just assumptions and rumors, the SUB is getting some negative comments online.
It's not uncommon for products in one country to be more than double the price on import to another. In Australia we regularly get ripped off this way on all sorts of things, and it usually works out cheaper to buy online and import yourself - even with duty - than pay retail.
Personally I think the Japan price is probably at the top end of what a new innovation for diatonic is worth, and I'm quite sad that the pricing in US is so high as it will only act as serious friction on the uptake. The flip side is it leaves a lot of room for the other manufacturers to undercut Suzuki internationally with their own versions, assuming they can get the engineering worked out.
I'm quite sure there is more than a little reverse engineering going on right now!
As mentioned previously, I was at the launch in Tokyo and was surprised when I actually played it despite the negative programming from the web forums. I still wasn't going to buy one at what I thought would be US price but then they announced the price (I think it was about Yen 6800 for the launch) so I bought a C harp, and have since picked up a D as well.
I stand by my comments that the stock Sub30 plays fine OOTB, it just needs some "breaking in" and an open mind to new playing technique. You can always go for the mods later.
That's also about 800yen cheaper than the harp shop in Jimbocho.
Type "sub30" into the search box top right and press the search button to the right of the text entry box, and you will see the sub30 page as #1 entry on the search results list.
Edit: If Soundhouse is out of stock when she wants to get them she could try taniguchi-gakki store in Jimbocho (or via web) where they are 7,140 yen or ~us$90 They might have some in stock in their 4th floor harmonica/accordian department. It's harmonica nirvana there!
Please note they do not sell for resale: "?Please read the following notes well. 1, It is not possible to buy it excluding an individual purpose of use (resale etc.). 2, We can speak only Japanese. Please send E-mail when you contact us. 3, We do not accept any returns for reason.Please confirm the commodity well."
so anyone who is thinking of running an international arbitrage business in Sub30's...please don't abuse their goodwill. They are tight with Suzuki and I think it might not end well for all involved.
I felt that $185 was a stiff price to pay for a harp that I'm not even sure I'd like. And then if I do happen to love it,a big hunk of cash to have multiple keys. Now,if it was,say,$100,I'd probably jump in with both feet. Hard to believe overseas shipping would add $100 to the cost.
Please note Tanaguchi specifically does not ship for resale, only for individual use, which means a customiser value add sell through is out of the picture.
@Tuckster Go for it, as an individual player should be no problem to buy them. Even with US duty it should come in way cheaper than US price.
People rip on companies like Hohner for charging a lot for things like replacement parts, but I've always found them honest about their costs, which are usually very high, from overseas.
$185 for a diatonic that gives you all those extra notes without any of the playability issues of half-valving or overbending is a steal!!!!! (Assuming it plays as well for Richter playing as a half-valved for overbend harp).
But Tombo does not sell Lee Oskar in Japan, I have to import reed plates from US, though I have not done that for a while as I'm still retuning the ones I have (though I only really have to import the altered tunings, not major).
Mike-I guess I'm a cheapskate when it comes to harps. I have a Buddha custom that I like,but I don't think it's 4 times better than a stock MB. I think you are in the minority on what players are willing to pay,but it's your money to spend as you wish.
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2012 8:46 AM
Brad Harrison proved that American consumers would line up to pay $180+ for an advanced-design, OOTB harmonica. Hard to blame Suzuki for trying fill that marketing niche.
I guess they simply didn't think they could sell at that price in japan.
timeistight is right. Even if the minority here would value a professional grade overblow harp, half valved, or ultrabend harp at more than $85, that only represents a small small small fraction of harmonica players on the whole.
Anyone in a harmonica-related trade would have to admit that the bulk of business doesn't come directly from forum participants. The harmonica is the most popular instrument in the world with hundreds of thousands of unique users (well, millions to be more precise). There are like 300, or well under .003% of harmonica owners posting on this forum (assuming there are only 100,000 serious harp players in the world).
We spend all day every day making very broad assumptions and claims here, and I am just as guilty, with little evidence to support our opinions. I, for one, am not ready to say that SUB pricing is morally wrong, and that harp players won't pay $185 for a pro level harp. Heck, we have a lot of customizers around here getting $185 for customs all the time, thousands of pre-orders for the B-Rad, and a company like Suzuki figuring they can make a profit at $185.
I'd say every harp company's bread and butter are sales of stock low to mid priced harps at the big box stores.
Mike- You're in a position to know. How much demand is there for a $150 and up custom? I'm sure Suzuki researched the hell out of pricing the SUB30. Is demand higher in Japan than it is in the States?
I would say the demand for a better instrument is high enough that people are willing to $150 on a very regular basis, even if it isn't for overbending.
Out of respect for other customizers, I am not willing to get more specific than that, but would continue the conversation via email.
I can only speculate as to what Suzuki is doing and why, and I have some opinions that I am just keeping to myself. The only real negative thing I am willing to say at this point is the SUB30 should come better stock.
Those opinions will not be shared, even by email, lol. I do think we are very quick to assume malice in this situation, which is true of most things.
Bottom line, and I am not asking for sympathy as a small business, but if the shoe were on the other foot, most of us would be frustrated if we were getting flack for something that may or may not be warranted.
***Update: I spoke with Suzuki USA directly. Suzuki USA said they are charging the price they charge on the SUB 30’s based entirely on the pricing they get from the factory in Japan. The markup is no different than the markup on any product they carry.
I was all set to say this was just a fluke, Richard ought to calm down some, it's just some renegade company underpricing and selling just above cost. Apparently, that's not the case, Richard is absolute right (although I think it's misdirected against the wrong people) - and we get a taste of what people in U.K. and Australia have been complaining about for years. I surfed around, using a translator, Japanese Web sites. Apparently, this $85 is actual retail set by Suzuki in Japan. I actually found them CHEAPER than $85 - $81.75. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=ja%7Cen&u=http://www.10holes.com/ten/suzuki-sub30-f.html
This has nothing to do with Suzuki USA, I'm sure, it's retail prices set by Suzuki Japan. As I understand it, Suzuki USA is a separate company, not owned by Suzuki Japan (is that right?). Apparently, they are selling them to Suzuki USA for Japanese retail. The only realistic resolution I could see would be to raise the price in Japan. I don't know how Suzuki sales are divided around the world, but the United States is the world's largest harmonica market.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Suzuki Music USA is not marking up the SUB 30 any more than we would on any other harmonica that is imported into the USA. In the process of importing these instruments in a legal, ethical way, factors such as duties, taxes, tariffs, and shipping costs come into play....this is part of what sets the US retail price for these instruments. The rest is a function of what the Suzuki factory in Japan charges Suzuki USA for wholesale instruments.
PLEASE NOTE: Any Japanese retailer selling Suzuki harmonicas to US customers is doing so in clear violation of multiple trade agreements. Suzuki Music USA has the exclusive distribution rights for Suzuki harmonicas in the US market. Period.
Before we go any further, has anyone here in the USA placed an order with one of these Japanese retailers?
Have you received your order?
What were the charges for shipping and duty?
Before we start enforcing trade agreements, I'd like to know if anyone has actually "availed themselves" of this "low" pricing.
Also, before anyone else drops their hard-earned cash trying to get a SUB 30 from overseas, please note that harmonicas purchased in foreign countries DO NOT come with the Suzuki Music USA one-year limited warranty, and we will not service instruments purchased outside of the USA. Furthermore, Suzuki Music USA assumes no liability for mis-shipped items, incorrect billing, fraud, or any other issues associated with buying harmonicas from foreign retailers. BUYER BEWARE.
More updates to follow. Thank You. ---------- -Daron Stinton SUZUKI MUSIC USA Got a question about a Suzuki Harp? Call (800) 854-1594, or e-mail harmonicas@suzukicorp.com
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2012 1:24 PM
I just ordered a Turboslide. I would have liked to get a Turboslide and a Sub30, but the budget only covered one, and the Turboslide based off the Sessions model was only $120, including shipping.
Just had a word with a British retailer, they think the UK price will be around the £130 mark. Hoping it will be in before the end of the year but no guarantees.
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2012 3:11 AM
Just to put things into perspective, this issue is nothing new, and not restricted to the SUB30 - or even harmonicas.
According to a UK friend in the business of import and distribution of electronic equipment, the issue of Japanese prices on a wide range of products undercutting European and USA prices has been rumbling for a long time.
Apparently MAP prices would sort out the issue because it would create a level playing field. But Japan would have to enforce this world-wide.
There is an interesting article on MAP pricing here: http://saxforte.com/M_A_P__Price/m_a_p__price.html
As with anything, things are not always as simple as they seem at first sight...
With all due respect, no one is "undercutting" anyone.
Japan is the original market, their retail price is set for their market. They know the manufacturing costs, marketing costs, support costs, margins and what the market will bear.
International import markets are set to whatever they decide, given import & local support costs + margins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggested_retail_price
If anything, they are trying to maximize their profits in international markets. Whether the price is seen to be "acceptable" or "gouging" will be decided by the market itself. Any local retailer who tells you the problem is the original manufacturer market is "undercutting" them is full of it, and is most likely gouging a captive market that is discovering how much they are getting ripped off by the retail import markup game.
However, as SuzukiDaron points out, the advantages of a well priced import are local support and warranty in case of issues. Whether it's worth it is up to you, as is the case for any import product. [& don't forget you are most likely voiding this support/warranty as soon as you open it up and mod it]
As David pointed out "- and we get a taste of what people in U.K. and Australia have been complaining about for years. "
As I posted in #2 above "It's not uncommon for products in one country to be more than double the price on import to another. In Australia we regularly get ripped off this way on all sorts of things, and it usually works out cheaper to buy online and import yourself - even with duty - than pay retail."
This is not a "Japanese" issue. In Australia we get equally ripped off by US, Asian, and EU import to retail markups.
You also would not believe some of the markups done in Japan on US Import instruments. Just...effing...crazy. A friend of mine met some serious resistance from the Japanese music retail market mafia when he direct imported one very name US brand of guitar you would all recognize, but could save the eventual buyer 100,000 yen or more. They really didn't like that at all! But I didn't hear any cash strapped musicians complaining, or the original manufacturer that was still pushing product.
The Sub30 case is not unique. Could it have been handled better? Most definitely imho.
I work for Suzuki, doing repairs. Yesterday I got .to retune a Double Bass, man is that a harmonica. I am glad I am not involved with this drama--but it makes for gripping, must-see email. Whatever Richard Sleigh's motivation for his recent actions, if I were directly impacted, I would be furious. It was most unkind
Suzuki can price however they want. It's within their rights to do so. On the other hand- sometimes, a man feels he has the civic obligation to stand up and say "this is bullshit." That's Richard's motivation, it's just directed at the wrong people - I was confident even before Daron chimed in that this was not Suzuki USA doing the U.S. markup, it was Japan.
Now Kumoso had an excellent point and nailed it right on the head thusly: "they know... what the market will bear."
Anybody notice anything specifically familiar about the price of $185?
I sure did.
Anybody know of another innovative harmonica that was priced at $180? They think the U.S. market will bear it, because they know well there certainly was no trouble selling B-radicals for $180.
I'm extremely convinced that's why the price was set for the U.S. market as it was. They drew upon the B-radical for their market evaluation.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
"Come on, the US market is about competition and better pricing. IMHO, it's vice versa - the Japanese market can "bear" much higher prices than the US. Japan has a higher cost of living. Higher wages - and thus, higher prices."
@Jim You clearly don't know much about Japan, not to mention your simplistic model of market pricing dynamics.
"I'm extremely convinced that's why the price was set for the U.S. market as it was. They drew upon the B-radical for their market evaluation."
More than likely, as well as the XB-40. The manufacturers know all the sales data, I'm sure.
I have to say I'm still surprised at the number of people who were going "$185? That's cheeeeeeeeeeap!" You just validated their pricing decision in a nutshell.
Importers of foreign products have a lot of risk and responsibilities. They typically buy for considerably less than retail directly from the manufacturer. But there’s much more going on.
They usually have to guarantee a minimum amount of orders annually – especially if they have an exclusive agreement. Importers provide a distribution system of dealers or reps for the manufacturer. They pay FOB pricing (plus export fees, freight forwarders to ship the stock across the Pacific, any import fees, tariffs, etc. Usually they have to pay up front, put it in escrow or use Letters of Credit. None-the-less, it’s upfront money.
Then the product must travel from the USA ports, either on airplanes or trucks to a local distribution terminal. Then the local truckers load and deliver to the final destination. But wait, there’s more. The warehouse unloads and stocks it all. The reps place orders and items are shipped from the warehouse to individual stores. Then there’s the cost of honoring warranties – more labor – more shipping – irate customers, etc. And all along the way expenses are incurred.
I’m not trying to defend anyone’s pricing. But, being an importer can be a real PITA. It's much easier being an exporter.
Everyone keeps mentioning the B-Radical. “It’s the basis of the Sub30 pricing,” “B-Rad had thousands of pre-orders” and on and on.
If he had “thousands” of pre-orders, getting the financing would have been easy. The most likely scenario is that Brad was a great technically, but not a good businessman. He couldn’t deliver. I’m not slamming the guy, at least he gave it a shot.
Most techies turned businessman don't have a clue on setting a selling price. I've seen it over and over in other industries.
The bottom line is, if you don't see the value at the price point being asked - don't buy it. If you see the value - support it.
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2012 4:35 PM
Noodles, don't forget fluctuations in the exchange rate! ---
Absolutely right. The weaker the American dollar, the more imports will cost- the more weak dollars you have to cough up. As an importer/seller you can't bounce your prices up at down at the mercy of daily exchange rates. There's probably a factor (a pad) in the final pricing scheme that is designed to smooth out those upticks and downticks over the long term. Something like a rolling average over time to create an "average cost," based on historical data trends, I would suspect. I wish the gas companies would used a method like that. It would reduce the volatility of gas prices. It's the oil speculators that bid up oil futures on a whim. Not the case in almost any other imported product, other than a few commodities, I believe.
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2012 5:14 PM
Noodles, you're wrong here. I know you're just venturing an educated guess, but I can tell you for a fact the financing was not easy, not with the banking crisis that was going on when he launched the company. I know. I was there. I watched it all happen from the inside.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Noodles, you're wrong here. I know you're just venturing an educated guess, but I can tell you for a fact the financing was not easy, -- Dave, I was responding to an assertion by another member that there were "thousands of pre-orders." If that was not the case, then we agree - financing would be near impossible.
"Thousands of pre-orders" means that the sales were already made and long waiting lists of pre-paid customers were waiting for product. It is akin to a guaranteed return on investment. There is almost no better collateral when approaching an investor. If that was the case, (having the orders in-hand) then I am correct.
BTW, there are loads of investors looking for an opportunity like this, especially in a tough market.
I can't say anything about the number of orders, because I promised I wouldn't. I can say we ran on national CBS Sunday morning twice and had a big preorder sale. Connect the dots.
All I can say is financing was not easy. I do know a lot more than I can say, and I can't say them because I promised I wouldn't say specific things - and I do not believe that this story is over. It's a bit frustrating at times to know things and not be able to say them. I just pipe in occasionally on these things, since I'm the only one here who was there when it happened and can say stuff that's not based on assumptions. I can't always support the things I say, but I say them anyway because I think I should. If it's not believed, that's OK. I understand.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Jim: "I think the price is adequate even at 180$. I mean, you won't be able to make a sub-30 yourself anyway."
That's irrelevant. The manufacturer's bottom line is their production break even cost. That can be also be calculated differently depending on whether they include the long gestation period R&D costs as well as tooling up a new production line etc in that. Then wholesale/retail prices are set depending on add on marketing/support costs, sales/revenue projections. (and as pointed, FX rates are also no doubt hedged a bit as well)
In Japan the Sub30 is priced as a "Professional" product in the same range as their Pro-Master MR350G and Pure Harp MR550. In fact you can see this policy is carried through for the US/International market on these as well, where it is included in the "Professional" category.
Irregardless of what's been said,as an average,middle of the bell curve harp consumer,that's too much money for me. If I was Howard Levy,I could buy a "C" and play in all keys. But I'm no Howard Levy.
Your logic appears flawed. ***Edit: A few thousand presales isn't necessarily a green light for getting funding, and if it was, the company that bought the assessts would move to capitalize on the harp right away.***Before sharing anything else here, I want to point out that there was a time someone close to Harrison had explained to me some of what was going on, and that has all been stated on forums by others since - so I am not breeching any agreement, etc. What I know is nowhere near the level of people actually involved.
Harrison was trying to get funding, they were promised funding, they moved forward like they had funding, and then the funding never came.
Regarding the price point, one person made the B-Rad comment and a couple of others agreed...so about 1% of the posting members here think the price is related to the B-Rad. I would argue that the B-Rad was a factor, but I am sure they looked at other factors like the custom harmonica market to determine pricing.
It is pretty common place to assume a really nice custom diatonic that can play added bends (like overblows) runs between $150-250. An OOTB harmonica that plays great and can play extra notes with little lead time would be worth that sort of money.
The biggest mistake every harmonica company/customizer/etc has made has been taking orders and money and demand WITHOUT having the product in hand.
Some day, someone who is patient is going to have a BRILLIANT idea and the means to start ready for action rather than needing to solicit orders, etc, to get something started.
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2012 12:42 PM
