Incorrect. Heavy customizing makes a huge difference. Different covers make a huge difference. On the first three holes, the sympathetic reeds are simply not worth the trouble, IMO. Tape them off. You can choose to leave if half valved if you want.
The gapping of the sympathetic reeds was off on all three of mine based on my style of play and you absolutely need to tweak those to your personal taste. Oddly enough, I didn't here that sort of rattle/squeal from your sample. What I did hear was leaking air, which would be helped by gapping. I also heard a valve squeal similar to what you get on an overdraw. I am sure that would be harder to do with gapping, but the case could be made that was a technique issue.
I've also had to gap the regular reeds as well. The A and C were solid harps with just gapping. The D hasn't been touched at all and I don't like it as such.
I have had no problems with squeaking at all like the first part of your clip. While I totally agree that they aren't gapped well out of the box, I find that if you take the time to gap the harp, it will play much better on holes 4-10.
I am trying to publish a vid from this morning to YouTube. You can physically see me playing the extra bends without having to really force anything and without there being any noise issues.
***The factory gapping is not what it should be and I can't understate to others the importance of regapping the harp when you get it. We can debate the tone and timbre of the instrument, and even how airtight it is/isn't, but you have to expect to adjust the gaps! ---------- Mike OOTB Harmonica Price List VHT Special 6 Mods Note Layout Comparisons Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2012 8:33 AM
The look of a gap means nothing. If it is hard to play, it needs gapping. I can hear the air leaking when you play. It sounds like something is off on the 3 to get that sort of squeal from a draw bend. It sounds like the squeal from an overdraw or valve bend.
A different comb would be a huge upgrade. I broke the 8 draw on my "A" being stupid, so it is out of commission, but it is a FANTASTIC harp. I did a review on a C that has been gapped and have had the first three sympathetic reed blocked off...no embossing, reed profiling, etc.
Great video Mike thanks. I got mine a day or so ago and for the moment anyway - it's more of an expensive novelty item than a harp I'm drawn to to pick up and play. I have tape just on the first low sympathetic for now - the others aren't that different with or without after a little gapping. The whole harp is pretty 'airy' and the tone a bit 'light weight' for my taste. Draw bends on 9&10 take a bit of draw pressure/ work to get. I haven't taken the reed plates off yet - and I'm hesitant- especially after hearing that even you butchered one of the reeds. . I'm not at all sure what I'm doing -or should be doing when gapping the sympathetic reeds. A video on that process would be nice. ----------
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2012 11:09 AM
No harp that costs that much should require so much customizing just to make it playable. You could get 3 sp20's from chromatic blues for that price or a Spiers stage 2 with that money.
I have been a great lover of Seydel. I still am. I was even when I worked at Harrison. They treated me with nothing but kindness since day 1 - even and especially when I was at HH - and I love their harmonicas. There are a lot of harmonicas I don't like, but I don't go around trashing them. With that in mind, I say:
I tell y'all what would be some major, bodacious front-page news: If Jim found a harmonica that he liked that's not among the models he sells or saw somebody else's custom work that he liked, or even respected. Now that I am retired, I can say these things. A lot of customizers don't speak out against Jim and some of crazy things he comes up with about others' work, because they are afraid he will seek out one of their harmonicas and then trash it, like he has done to so many others in what I can only assume is an effort to make his own products look better. As a business plan, it's classless. Me, I don't care about that anymore. I'm not making customs, so I've no business to lose.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
It's not even that I deny that harmonica he got is a piece of crap. It probably is. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back for me. He has used this forum to publicly trash the work of numerous customizers (who are his American competitors), or trash the products of other harmonica companies, whose products he does not sell. He is not an unbiased source of information. How can you be when talking about your competition? Think about this, people. Please. Could I be the only person who has noticed that he constantly uses this forum to trash his competitors' products? ONLY HIS COMPETITORS' PRODUCTS. I am completely perplexed as to why he gets all these positive, supportive comments to all these negative things he spouts about his competition. This doesn't help Seydel either, it only hurts it. Seydel is not this way. As a company, they have class. It would be nice if that class were to rub off. This has gone on for years and nobody has ever called him out on it. I suppose after saying all this, he'll get one of my older customs or maybe a newer one and do some video on it and trash it because it does not comply with the Eugene Ivanov method of customizing harmonicas. That's fine. I accept that. I won't be angry about that. Go ahead and do it. I won't launch some counter-campaign of negativity about your products. I am retired for the most part, so I can deal with it. It feels really good to get that off my chest. It has been on my chest for years. I feel much better now.
Thanks for the therapy.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
I really do feel better now. Back to kindness and gentleness for me. That really was a load off. ---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Like after Buddha passed THEN he posted a video trashing a Buddha harp. Real Class!! Jim thinks he is all that then some. I dont see nobody raving about him!!!
Suzuki makes some great harps. My only point is that the sub30 is very expensive and seems to need a high level of customization that is beyond the ability of %95 of players to do themselves. It seems that it would take someone like Dave, Mike, or Kevin to make the harp playable. If the crossover was like that people would go ballistic.
"Could I be the only person who has noticed that he constantly uses this forum to trash his competitors' products? ONLY HIS COMPETITORS' PRODUCTS."
I've noticed it; you've noticed it. We can't be the only ones.
"I am completely perplexed as to why he gets all these positive, supportive comments to all these negative things he spouts about his competition."
Speaking for myself, I wanted to comment about his ridiculous stunt of turning a B-Radical into a pseudo-Seydel but I was reluctant to get into a slagging match.
I remember reading an article about an executive, maybe the head of Bose. He had a trick when he was interviewing new employees: he'd ask them about their cars. Some of them would talk about how great their cars were, their new Lexus or Beamer... he'd never hire them. The ones he'd hire were the ones who say, 'I just wish the cup holder was better.' He wanted people who would complain if something wasn't perfect.
Of course, there are different levels of 'perfect'. What is perfect for one person may not be perfect for someone else. There is a great TED speech by Malcolm Gladwell about pasta sauce and the search for the universal answer. I think if you go into someone's post with the idea that they are talking about their truth, maybe not the universal truth then you don't get as worried about things. I liked the B-Rad Steel idea- even if the harp isn't as good afterwards, or it is better, either way, knowledge is gained.
My grandfather used to work for GE. He used to love to tell this story. Another company was very proud of it's wire. It claimed to be able to make the finest wire in the world. To prove this claim, they hammered two nails into a piece of wood pulled a strand of their wire across and sent it out to other companies. It went around a while, and people were impressed. GE got a hold of it, and sent it back to the original company, with a hole drilled through the middle of their wire and a strand of GE wire run through the middle.
Harps are harder to judge than wires. Maybe we need a Kickstarter campaign to fund an equivalent study of harps. We could send the best customs around to the best players and get their opinions. There are going to be times when people claim they've strung a finer piece of string, but harps are, of course, more complicated. Buddha once told me he'd used a freezer to do cryogenic metal experiments on harps. Harrison milled their reeds differently. Seydel switched to steel. It's all, hopefully about learning.
That's a great urban legend that has evolved. My grandfather told it to me as the Americans made the world's smallest drill bit. They sent it off to the Japanese to show it off. The Japanese sent the drill bit back with a hole drilled in it.
So... I'm gonna try to get all this off my chest, so I get over it and move on in peace and harmony. I really don't like doing this - it took me years to get to this point.
All this negative hype looks bad for Seydel and that is very unfortunate, because they are such a great company. It does NOT work like he thinks it does. There are people who think ill of Seydel, or have a bad taste in their mouth when they think of Seydel - specifically because of the things he says. Some people have told me privately that they have posted negative things about Seydel, just to piss him off. I have, for years, been frustrated by this. I have to spend time going behind him and trying to pick up the pieces. I've tried to spread the word of Seydel and then this stuff goes on. I feel that every bit of positive I've tried to do by spreading he good word of Seydel is negated by this constant negativity. There is a reason companies normally don't say many negative things publicly about their competition. It doesn't work. It always backfires.
Jim is NOT a Seydel employee (I am not either). A lot of people think he is, I know, because they tell me. I can tell you for damn sure these views do not represent Seydel's views.
One more thing, why the hell does he keep spending money on these harps if they ALL suck?
Again, thanks for the therapy.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
At SPAH this past summer, a group of us went to a late dinner. Upon returning after midnight, we ran into all the reps from the big three. They were all drinking beer and laughing together. I stood out there talking with those guys for an hour or so. Most the conversation was about their mutual respect for each other and their products. You could tell that the reps from different companies were all good friends.
1. It's too expensive 2. People don't want to adapt their technique to fit a new instrument.
In Japan the cheapest price seems to be 6,480 yen from Soundhouse Japan online music store which is about half price of US. This is about the most I would ever pay for a harp to be honest - high for a standard Lee Oskar player like me with a smattering of other harps to test out.
Point 2 is more important. It's a different beast imo, and you need to approach it differently. Not to say you can't modify it, like any harp, but I think players should initially approach it with an open mind and see it as an opportunity to learn something new...in the first instance.
Agree fully on the negative trashing vs constructive criticism Dave brought up.
I mean this in the most kind, loving way and this is my way of reaching out to Jim: if you are gracious, you will go much farther. I want to see Jim succeed in things he does. I want to see everyone succeed. A rising tide raises all ships in port, that was a saying Brad had about other companies. Kindness, graciousness and respect are far more powerful. That is how Seydel operates. Operating in that way does Seydel good - and in that, we want the same things.
The bend squeal can be fixed in about two minutes with a little nail polish. A bend squeal is just like an overblow squeal - they are created the same way - the reed is squealing from similar torsional stresses found in an overblow. It usually happens when the reed is bent beyond the point it should be. It happens in some harps, but not others. It's a rare phenom, but it happens.
Actually, it's pretty much the same as an overblow. It happens in a draw bend at the point when the draw reed has pretty much stopped vibrating normally and the blow reed is doing all the work. It's almost identical to an overblow squeal in the physics that makes it happen, only the blow/draw is reversed. I've seen it a handful of times. It's always been when a harp was set up awesome and extra stress was put on the reed as a result. Not saying this harp is awesome. I'm just speaking from my experiences. I've never seen such a squeal on a leaky, shitty harp.
I had one custom 1847 that the customer had this squeal. I got it and couldn't make it happen. I talked to him on the phone, etc. trying to figure this out. Only when I bend it down as hard as I possibly could, way past the floor, could I force it to make that squeal. I couldn't even make it happen in normal playing. That's the only specific time I can remember seeing this. I believe it was on the three draw bend.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Jim seem to be the only customizer that get scared of the greatness of harmonica evolution. I can play the most expensive custom harp in the world and make it sound like crap. Does that make me look like a fool or does it make the customizer look like a fool?
I can see a lot of things you could do on a sub30 that will be very hard on a "regular" custom. Try to toungslap an overblow. Or adding deep throat vibrato to the flat third in first position.
Milsson, Could you explain "Toungslap on an overblow"..??
Unless I've hit the liquor cabinet a little too hard, the one thing you CAN'T do on a SUB-30 is over blow/draw. ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
I'd be the first to say (and I have said publicly already) that the SUB30 UltraBend is not as good as I wanted it to be out of the box. There is a story behind that which may get told in time...
But bear in mind we're in the very early stages of what I believe will be a revolution in diatonic harp playing. I listened to Jim's clip and, though he concentrates on the negative, I also heard beautiful supple bends and vibrato on notes that couldn't be inflected that way before.
The UltraBend (and other harps that will follow it) has so much going for it that the early teething troubles will be ironed out - as with other useful inventions throughout history. The first telephone, or flying machine, or washing machine, or whatever... they were just a starting point. Once people realised how much extra they brought to enhance their lives, tweaks, improvements, modifications quickly proliferated to move the invention on from its imperfect beginnings.
Naturally I don't compare the UltraBend with the significance of the telephone (!), but it does give the diatonic harp player 18 really easy interactive-reed bends (instead of 8 up to now) in the size of a stock 10 hole harmonica. They can be used for adding soul to previously fixed notes, creating totally new phrases and licks, easy playing in previously difficult keys, and full chromaticism - all through bending alone.
That IS a revolution in the development of the small 10 hole harp, but because it's so new it will take time for the instrument to be optimised and styles to emerge that exploit this fabulous new expression.
Many harp players these days know how to do some light or intensive slot embossing. Like any other harp, the UltraBend benefits a lot from that. Jim is a self-professed expert at this technique, so I look forward to hearing a clip once he has embossed all the reeds.
In addition, soon there will be a variety of custom combs available to bring out the best in the new reedplates. I will have two main designs available in solid materials within a month or so, and I know others are planning to make custom combs also. The UltraBend can sound really good on the stock comb with embosssed reedplates, but cleverly designed solid combs definitely enhance the performance considerably.
Though they are very different on the surface, in a way you could compare the Suzuki UltraBend to the Hohner Marine Band: they are both harps with great qualities, but which require hand customisation to bring out their full potential. At this point, that's the reality.
But I can assure you that once you play a well set-up UltraBend it's very hard to go back to a harp that can't bend those extra notes. I created the first half-valved harps back in the early 1980s and have played half-valved ever since, but am currently in the process of switching over all my diatonic harps to the triple-reed format. Those new bends are just too addictive!
Last Edited by on Oct 20, 2012 3:30 PM
I really love the instrument, both customized and non-customized I think it's great and I had no problems with either one I tried at SPAH - both were very playable and usable. Of course the custom one was better, but the stock one was fine for me. I think it's a really great instrument to have in one's collection and certainly takes the place of valved harps, at least for me. I'm sure that Suzuki will continue to address any issues and improve it.
One of these days, I want to get one in low F# and record a particular song with it, which would be impossible to do as smoothly or soulfully on any other harp, position, or alternate tuning.
I don't personally know anyone who's got a SUB30, so I'd like to hear some equitable reviews on it (and, also, a little grace in one's tone makes it easier for others to respect an opinion or judgment). As mentioned before, the price is pretty steep, so folks need to know more before taking the plunge. Like Brendan said, it's the first iteration of a new technology, so thanks to everyone who's trying it, critiquing and thereby making it better.
Thank you for the review. I kind of suspected that another expensive OOTB harp would have issue like all the rest and require Customizing to be playable. It is disheartening that you put down your hard earned dollars, open up a brand new harp and hope you got a good one. I feel for the ones that can not do some tweaking. Why are these harps not caught at the factory and rejected?
Comments such as 528's above are exactly what I was talking about when I posted this earlier in the thread: "I am completely perplexed as to why he gets all these positive, supportive comments to all these negative things he spouts about his competition."
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Hi-- I examined every one of the latest batch of SUB30s before they went to our retailers to make sure that they were set up properly--the responder reeds need to be set to a negative profile--and they all looked great. Don't forget that this is a brand new product--everyone involved with it cares about making it a good experience for the end user. I just worked on a brand new 270, it can't be older than a few months, and it benefitted from my attention. It probably cost the customer as much as a SUB30--and they have been making them for decades!
I’ve followed this thread with some interest and it seems that there are two sub-plots being written about: Jim’s comments and the reaction to them and the Sub 30 tweaks and adjustments.
RE: Jim’s comments I think it’s unfair to take someone’s comments and the attribute an “intent” as to why those comments are posted. No doubt, Jim is blunt. Jim is also affiliated with Seydel. When one is affiliated with a manufacturer and posts a negative comment about the competition, those comments-whether right or wrong will be perceived as biased. It may not be fair but that’s the reality. So, it’s usually not a good idea to criticize the competition but rather stick to the benefits and features of those manufacturers you are perceived to be in alignment with.
RE: Sub 30 New product launches have always been a little tricky. Sometimes the hype used to generate the initial buying interest creates higher expectations than warranted. The risk is that customers may become disappointed more easily and lash back. Perhaps the product is at fault, perhaps the customer is being unrealistic – who knows?
Many of us went through the early days of computers with all of the frustrations, countless hours on the phone with tech support, crashes, bugs, fixes, updates, software conflicts, viruses – you name it. I felt like a guinea pig. Now, should I wait to buy a Sub30? Is my past computer experiences fair to Suzuki? – Probably not – these are my pre-conceived perceptions. But, the Sub30 is at a price point that may not attract the casual hobbyist, but rather a more discriminating buyer. Satisfying them is the Sub30’s challenge.
If you are someone who would purchase several Sub30s, you are most likely someone who adjusts your harps. A harp can be nearly perfect at the factory, but by the time it’s packaged, shipped around the world, bounced around on loading docks and delivery trucks through a myriad of temperature changes, thing could change a bit. And then, there are forums like this where one negative comment can travel around the world at light-speed. A final quality-control check close to the point of sale might be the answer. Perhaps that’s what Gnarly was alluding to.
Why are you so perplexed by my comment? I dont follow all the drama on the forum here or read every post. Jim posted that he bought a Sub 30 and it was terrible OOTB and posted a sound Clip. I would not want to put down my hard earned money and have that harp or any harp that requires more then gapping. Jim said he gapped the harp and it was not any better. If this is an isolated one off and not the normal then fine but I highly doubt the quality control will be any better then it is now with any manufacturers. That is all. I hope that clarifies my comment
Noodles: "A final quality-control check close to the point of sale might be the answer."
Todd Parrott: "Brendan, I really love the instrument, both customized and non-customized I think it's great and I had no problems with either one I tried at SPAH - both were very playable and usable. Of course the custom one was better, but the stock one was fine for me. I think it's a really great instrument to have in one's collection and certainly takes the place of valved harps, at least for me. I'm sure that Suzuki will continue to address any issues and improve it."
Sounds impartial to me, considering Todd is a Hohner endorser. Additionally, as someone who's just a non-name harp player, I think the Sub30 is fine OOTB. It just needs some "breaking in", not instantly shoot it off to the mod shop. Didn't we all do that once, "break in" a new harp? What happened to that concept? As well as treat a new instrument as a ...ta da...new instrument! [without starting a flame war on "Breaking In" harps lets just say it applies as much to the player as it does to the new instrument]
My first playing experience with the sub30 was at the Suzuki Tokyo launch, playing their test models. I was negatively biased with all the web forum chatter, and high price but tried it anyway. My first thought when I tried it..."hmm, this is DIFFERENT". Perhaps I should PLAY IT A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY! (Having the Suzuki master tech listening to me and give me some points was very helpful I have to say)
Having played live with it in some gigs and jam session I'm sold on its different sonic qualities, and reiterate my point that it is a DIFFERENT INSTRUMENT and will take some getting used to mentally and physically.
Something physical no one has mentioned but is key in this regard. The hole size is smaller than the normal diatonic for starters. Just going by my eye they look to be about 70% of the size of a Standard Lee Oskar hole. So straight away there is a physical difference in the instruments interface which will possibly have quite an impact depending on your embouchure technique and sensitivity.
Will it benefit from customization? As Brendan, Todd, and others point out of course it will, AS WILL ANY HARP.
But to repeat my point from previous posts, I disagree with the meme that the stock Sub30 is "unplayable" without customization.
Noodles: "If you are someone who would purchase several Sub30s, you are most likely someone who adjusts your harps."
This is "most likely" an assumption which may or may not hold a lot of water;-) Just saying.
But...whatever. Roll on Hohner, Tombo, Seydel Sub30 variants (hopefully cheaper) and roll on Suzuki.
ps: People's unwillingness to learn a new interface & stick with what they know is nothing new. If you think the sub30 chatter is bad, wait till you hear the howling over the new soon to be released Windows 8;-)
528, to answer your question, because as far as harmonicas are concerned, Jim is not a private citizen. He is a Seydel dealer. He sells customs. He repeatedly trashes products of the competition ONLY. He repeatedly trashes products of other customizers. He says negative things about the products of others, positive things about products he sells. There is a long, long pattern here that I've just now started to call him out on.
Lemme put this in relatable terms. The Chrysler dealer down the street posts how much the new Chevy model sucks and about how bad their mechanics at the Chevy dealership suck. Surely, you wouldnt go around saying "gee, I'm glad the Chrysler dealer told me how much the Chevy dealership sucks. Thankfully, he kept me from wasting my money on it. I'm glad the Chrysler dealer cared so much about me, that kept me from wasting my money on a Chevrolet."
There is a pattern here.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Well, I'm in agreement with Jim. I just received an A and a C. Both sound like they're full of junk. Very hard to play. Stiff. Hopefully they will improve with time. I doubt I'll buy another however, its more difficult than I thought to retrain my brain to find those new bends. I should just stick with a customized MB or SP20 instead. Oh! That's right? I tried that already when I sent Chris M. $600.
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2012 7:03 AM
In terms of chromatic harmonicas, I wonder would there be enough space on each reedplate/chamber for the 3rd (sympathetic) reed? This would be very cool, to be able to bend blow notes as well as the draw bends that are available on (currently) half-valved chroms.
I will readily trade Quicksilver Custom harmonicas for SUB 30's, FWIW. My custom site has been updated to reflect where we're headed in the New Year (a totally new site is being worked on as we speak and the new company will be made public this winter).
I'd credit a full $185 from my site in trade. Lead time on my end is 2-3 months. My email is on my site and my user profile.
The SUB30 is listed on my site as $210 customized - this includes the same reed work and profiling that goes into my other customs, etc. You have the option of different valve material, different coverplates, and blocking off the sympathetic reeds in holes 1-3 (which I do on all of mine).
@ Jim... Yes, I feel better. I will return to my world of rainbows, unicorns and puppy dogs now.
---------- David
____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Hi I bought two Suzuki sub30 Ultrabend after watching amazing demos of this new harmonica on Utube. (it is not a cheap Harmonica!). When I blew in it for try,I had a normal sound,with no bend at all.. or really light ..So I looked on the Manual and was surprised to learn that to have the bend effect I expected ,I should "set the Reed Gaps" and"adjust the Sympathetic Reeds"..... " lowering or raising the reed in the slot"...
If I understand well,I have to unscrew it ,and then ,one by one ,act on the 10 sympathetic reeds? It's like micro surgery...Then with what kind of tool should I practise???It is not written on the Manual... Toothpick?with surgery gloves? to avoid stripes on metal....it is not specified... It would be great ,even essential, to have a close-up Thanks if you have some ideas about sorry if my english is not perfect lol
I just found "a repair kit" forum interesting. perhaps found a way ,but still no tutorial vid on line would be great http://www.slidemeister.com/forums/index.php?topic=3972.0
Last Edited by Marseille13 on Mar 05, 2013 10:50 AM
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2012 9:07 PM