I’m going to rename the major pentatonic scale “the money scale”.
Two weeks ago I was called to sit in with a country band. Three hours of tunes later, I had played 80% major pentatonic, and 20% blues scale. Last Saturday morning I was called to play with another country pick up band, that night. Three hours of tunes later, I played 70% major pentatonic, and 20% blues scale, and 10% minor. And the only minor tunes were ones I picked and sang.
Things may be different where you live, but after learning the major pentatonic 2 years ago (after playing for 8 years) I have found it to be the workhorse that gets the job done for most of the tunes that people call out. Every time I tell the gang at the club about the major pentatonic, their eyes glaze over. I think it’s the technical name. If I rename it The Money Scale, maybe people will listen. If I called it The Country Scale (as some people do) their eyes would not glaze over, but their eyes would roll back in their heads
I repeat. if you want to fit in more places, and make money, make sure you have down the Money Scale.
Frank, Do the math, 70% major pentatonic, 20% blues, 10% minor. I say that shows where the money is.
Hvyj, I have NOTHING against the blues scale, and I LOVE it. But MY reality is echoed in the numbers I posted. What my frustration "localy" is the people that are resistant to learn the major pentatonic, or people that play the blues scale when a "money scale" would sound better. ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Jun 25, 2012 5:44 AM
Jim I understand the blues scale is for playing the blues, fairly obvious don't you think? I understand there are folks that don't comprehend that either. My half serious point was ya probably ain't gettin a big paycheck no matter what scale you be havin fun with. I'm sure it ain't as funny now that I explained the joke... :(
I'm not sure the scale needs a fancy name so much as when people talk about this scale or another they probably should include by default the pattern for the scale. Perhaps their eyes wouldn't glaze over if you always included R 2 3 5 6 & R b3 4 5 b7 (the second being a scale most blues harp players are familiar with anyway). Wikipedia suggests there are 5 different pentatonic scales on the black keys of a piano, no wonder eyes glaze over!
Ryan I think the glaze comes from the words "major pentatonic". Call it the "country" scale and now it's not do scary, but now some people refuse to even listen because it has the word "country".
If I called it the "Amazing Grace" scale, maybe that would get some interest. And the name fits, because that song is the major pentatonic scale.
My first blues song to learn was via Jon Gindick's Robert Johnson series tape. That first song was "Love In Vain". 7 years after learning that song, I now see that it's not a blues scale, it's a "money scale" :)
Big Boss Man is another example. Though I could play a blues scale to it, my first and current interpretation of that song is a major pentatonic (or mixolydian) scale.
So to prove or disprove my point, I ask everyone reading to think back to the last few times you were called to sit in with a band cold turkey. What was the mix of scales that you used?
---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Jun 25, 2012 10:33 AM
"and I agree that there is not much money in live music for the average joe".
Jim, let alone all the "below average", joes or johns or well, the name is'nt important, these Mcdonald and burgerking type players are keepin the prices low, it's a real disservice a calamity.
Last Edited by on Jun 25, 2012 12:08 PM
Grandpas. Taking all the high-paying McDonald's gigs from honest musicians.
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____________________ At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong. R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne Elk River Institute for Advanced Harmonica Studies
"Oh, Eeyore, you are wet!" said Piglet, feeling him. Eeyore shook himself, and asked somebody to explain to Piglet what happened when you had been inside a river for quite a long time.
Last Edited by on Jun 25, 2012 8:31 PM
Let's call it the Always Scale--since you are always playing it. It's also an Irving Berlin song, he wrote songs on the black keys and used a device to transpose the piano--so it's the Black Keys scale. When I taught guitar several decades ago, one of my students called it the "Chinky scale"--that's not very politically correct, is it . . . Irving Berlin called it something else--it's another racial slur, you can find it here-- http://gozips.uakron.edu/~sjk19/Berlin.htm
Hahahahaha, GrandPa nailed it, I'll take some of his fast food...Then there are the hyped up bands with self penned write ups in the paper making it sound like they should be headlining in Vegas and when you go to the gig to be entertained you get this - a waste of time and MONEY...
"It's also an Irving Berlin song, he wrote songs on the black keys and used a device to transpose the piano--so it's the Black Keys scale."
i think it was an extra special super wonderful gigantic piano capo; at least that is what i heard. something about only being able to play in C or something. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
I use both the blues scale and the country scale (as I call it), intertwined, in most of my playing on blues songs.
The opening riff of "Juke," repeated eight times, is the country scale minus the major second.
It's really just a question of when it's appropriate to use the flat seventh, flat fifth, and flattish third (all varieties) vs. when it's appropriate to use the major third and major sixth. The truth is, ALL those notes make sense at various points in a standard 12-bar blues progression. And all of them show up in bluegrass. Heck, pretty much every single fast solo throwdown in a contemporary Nashville hit uses all those notes, with lots of flash added.
But there are certain majorish chord progressions, sometimes in country, sometimes in pop, and often in folk, when the flat seventh, fifth, and third are a bad idea. Part of our professional training as musicians is to know, to intuit, when this is the case.
Jim is quite right about all this.
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2012 4:37 AM
"It's really just a question of when it's appropriate to use the flat seventh, flat fifth, and flattish third (all varieties) vs. when it's appropriate to use the major third and major sixth"
Just to be sure: it means we have to feel the best between using the blues scale or the Penta M, or am I lost?
Some you guys have your act together musically. You guys don't need to worry about this stuff. I spoke to a talented harp player that said,"I've been playing since I was 5 years old. I don't know if I play a major petatonic or not". I say that's OK too.
In my local group, there are a few that have learned the blues scale. Now they love the blues scale and play it all the time on every tune. My experience says different tunes need different notes. I put the "safe notes" into 3 scales: major pentatic blues minor
My recent surprise was the how those 3 were divided in frequency of use. I was surprized to see how often the "money scale" was used. I was hoping someone else would post how their scale use is divided. So far, Adam is the only one to say he uses both scales, and he does not mention the ratio of one to another. Arbite, said he prefers to have chromatics added, and that puts it in a "I don't know what" scale.
It's possible that many players don't care or don't know what they are playing. If it sounds good, then I don't care either and I say good for you. But if it doesn't sound good, looking at the choices of "safe notes" could help. I have found those 3 scales meet most of my needs.
---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2012 10:31 AM
*** My following posts in this thread are all in response to recently deleted posts by billy_shines. The quotes supplied are of those posts.
--------------- "im lost this sounds like rules which is contrary to anarchy and freedom of the individual. i think one of the worst things you can do to destroy creativity is take a lesson. my theory is if you cant play blues on harmonica or strings you probably never will. i dont think its possible to write blues music on paper and if it is i could never read it. that involves keeping your eyes open without dark shades and thinking instead of feeling. when you harp nerds have sex do you methodically plan everything? rhythm timing vocalizations? or do you just do it?" (billy_shines)
What a bunch of malarkey! How many great artists do you know were ENTIRELY self-taught? Get real. ---------- "my theory is if you cant play blues on harmonica or strings you probably never will."
I cannot even fathom how that makes sense. EVERY player that ever picked up a harmonica or guitar were not born with the ability. Because of this, they had to have previously not been able to play Blues.
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2012 9:45 AM
"when you harp nerds have sex do you methodically plan everything? rhythm timing vocalizations? or do you just do it?"
Are you telling us that you can achieve a feat so big as to play EVERYTHING you ever play from pure creativity?!
If what you play is from your own personal memory, then you are cheating! Do you not understand that this technical talk of Major, minor, pentatonic, etc., is simply us making use of a larger, collective memory?
I am pretty sure that the bulk of my sexual behavior comes from my own memory, and a collective memory such as the one I speak of. Not from creativity.
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2012 10:49 AM
@Jim: Jon Gindick likes to use that term, "safe notes". I suppose it's good for getting beginners over their music phobias, but after awhile, you need to leave it behind. The idea that you can just tootle away on a certain set of notes without listening is wrong, IMHO.
And the idea that you must not play the "unsafe notes" is also wrong. Here's a blues melody that uses all the notes:
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2012 11:08 AM
"The only training he ever received was at 16 years old when he had 3 or 4 drum lessons with Carlo Little (an early member of the Rolling Stones). Interestingly, Carlo Little was also a self taught drummer."
Explain to me how this is being self-taught? ---------------- "NaS is self-taught in all the major academic areas of history, philosophy, science, math, English."
LMAO! REALLY?! He is simply self-taught in all the aspects of science, math, english, history, and philosophy?! You expect us to simply Believe this?! Where are his standardized tests? Does he have ANY evidence that he has actually learned this stuff? Because searching quantum mechanics on Wikipedia does NOT qualify you as understanding quantum mechanics.
So far you have provided no real evidence for your claim.
"a teacher has one of those documents on the wall that say blah blah this person can teach blah blah blah and make money at it instead of getting aressted for teaching without a license. an artist has one of those flat black hats also worn by bald fuck harp players and latin american revolutionaries."
I'm not sure I understand this post. Are you simply an anarchist or anti-authority type that is venting? I am not suggesting that you Are, I just don't understand what this post has to do with our argument.
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2012 11:26 AM
"i dunno what it is but when teachers are finally replaced with computers it will be really funny to see them with something to really cry about"
Are you aware that the owner of this website (MBH) is a University professor? Or is that irrelevant because you are only talking about music teachers?
"a teacher has one of those documents on the wall that say blah blah this person can teach blah blah blah" (Seemingly in response to my NaS comment about academics)
Never mind my last question. I believe this is enough.
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2012 12:15 PM
@ billy shines, it's my understanding that every musician in Frank Zappa's bands had advanced degrees in music; 'prolly one of the most educated group of musicians playing outside the classical realm. Just sayin'..........
BTW, I'm almost totally ignorant of music theory outside of the I-IV-V progression.
@billy I listened to your video post and, quite frankly, a little music theory would go a long way to better your blues. just saying... ---------- Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2012 12:34 PM
during the Urban Cowboy Scare of the late 70s early 80s most of the gigs were C&W. Luckily, along with my LW and Butterfield wood shedding, i also was very big on Charlie McCoy. i played the Money Scale for six sets a night at a place called the Cowboy Inn but most other gigs were only four sets. it was a great learning experience to try to be interesting from 9:30pm till 3:30am on a regular basis.
of course i didn't think of it as a scale. still don't. to me it is just avoiding certain notes and substituting them with other notes. if you play something long enough it becomes a no brainer.
what happens is, your ability to play in genres other than blues expands big time. you learn melody lines. great tool for arsenal!
i'll go with calling it the Money Scale. i got paid.
EDIT oh yeah, aside from the Money Scale these folks wanted to dance ALL NIGHT LONG. so, you needed to play in 2/4, 3/4 4/4 and fit the time to what the dancers wanted. there are several different C&W dances which require certain time signatures. also, it is real common for a C&W tune to modulate up a half step. sometimes climbing up and back down again in half steps. all throughout ..the Money Scale. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2012 1:28 PM
I spent 15 years with very little theory. I mostly just felt it. I spent 12 more years with a lot of theory. My feeling for music never went away.
I teach all my students theory right off the bat. For the first two years, they may struggle. Around the 3rd year, they all seem to turn professional. I define professional as gigging.
I believe everybody is different and learns differently. (I also teach techniques, improvisation and learning songs note for note) Some people have a sense of how music works without theory and can jam great right away. Some people with no theory never get the feeling. Others understand theory but cannot play well. Others understand theory and play great.
To say lessons are only for those who cannot learn intuitively and lessons will not even help them is ridiculous. I have taken many a pro player who never took lessons to a much higher level. I worked with many people who tell me they tried harp for many years on their own and couldn't make heads or tails of it. Three years of weekly lessons later and they are in bands.
I do believe many of the best players are self taught. The number one factor in learning music is determination. If you really want it, you will find a way to make it happen. Most determined players can buy an instrument and spend hours with it and figure it out.
What I do notice is many professional blues players (or any specific style) who do not understand theory cannot play anything but blues. Theory tends to help one style players become multiple style players.
Billy Shines, you are entertaining to say the least. But I think you need to consider that what works for you may not work for other people.
Every now and then what works for me does not work for the student. They are either very resistant to theory or they have a low aptitude for theory. I try and teach them another way, but it is a challenge since half of my hour long lesson plan is theory based. Sometimes a student is not physically ready for the next step of technique work. Perhaps I should teach non theory students half hour lessons.
Let's try it like this-- The reason pentatonics work is the two dissonant notes have been taken out of the major scale, F and B in the key of C. So any two notes go together without dissonance. Since I am playing the blues, the C harmonica is being played cross position, so the pentatonic is G A B D E--well, the major pentatonic. The "minor pentatonic" which is actually a Bb major pentatonic starting from G is G Bb C D F G. Both of these scales work well with the blues. The notes we have left out (in the key of G) are the b9 (the Ab), the C#(the flat 5--it's draw 4 bent down, you will add it to turn the "Country" scale into the "blues scale"), the flat 6 (that's an Eb) and the major 7th (F#). Three of the five notes of the pentatonic are the root chord--1 3 5 of the scale. Of course they sound good, they are in the chord!!!!!!!
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2012 2:23 PM
You know, I don't know the theory behind it, but often you can use the 5b for flavor when playing the "Money Scale" and it sounds just fine. Sometimes it doesn't sound so good, but quite a bit of the time it seems to work fine.
