harpdude61
1376 posts
May 09, 2012
9:19 AM
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I play Golden Melodys which have a standard comb thickness of .250". I tried a thinner comb on a custom harp I ordered a few months ago and found it less desirable for my playing.
As an experiment I ordered some thicker combs from Tom Halchak at bluemoonharmonicas.com
I just tried the first comb which is wood with a thickness of .270". I took a fairly new C harp which plays really well.
All the existing screws worked fine but if I get much thicker I will need to find longer screws for the cover plates and reedplates. No problem.
Anyway, I LOVE IT! I found the harp easier to play, the bends work better as do the overblows and overdraws. Seems a bit louder and warmer. Of course the wood probably makes it sound warmer.
He sent me some .375" acrylic combs as well. I'm sure this is "maybe" too thick, but once I get some screws I can sand these down and find what is optimal for me. Thanks Tom! The combs are beautiful.
It really makes me wonder about how comb thickness can affect playing based on style of embrochure, mouth size, resonance chamber, etc..etc.. even the key of the harp could factor in. I play with mouth open, throat open, and try to maximize the size of my resonance chamber for the tone I want. Maybe a larger hole helps?
I also wonder about optiaml hole width? Has anyone ever tried a comb with wider holes? Same spacing just wider which would mean the post between the holes is thinner.
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nacoran
5645 posts
May 09, 2012
9:48 AM
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I'm not sure about the same spacing. The only harps I've tried with really thing spacing between the holes have been tremolos, and they sound different to start with. I suppose it might be easier to tongue block a bunch of holes that way, but that doesn't make wider holes, I don't think. I think they just pack the holes in more densely.
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Nate
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FreeWilly
205 posts
May 09, 2012
9:49 AM
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I think I saw something about Howard Levy's combs here lately. They have very small separations between holes.
This is an interesting topic I think. Yesterday I read that the reason Hetrick Bamboo combs are so good (allegedly) is because they are a bit thicker.
The Sleigh/Spiers combs also seem to be thicker than others.
I would be in the marked for a slightly thick corian comb that is flat but doesn't break the bank like Sleigh's does (although they are no doubt worth it).
Interesting topic. Hopefully some more experienced people than me will chime in!
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hvyj
2373 posts
May 09, 2012
9:53 AM
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I like thicker combs. I had some dymondwood GM combs made .270" thick and I think they provide nicer depth of tone--the high keys especially sound a little richer to my ear with thick combs.
I had a Buddha comb with larger (wider and longer) chambers (standard thickness). I didn't like it.
I have some Hetrick bamboo combs for MBDs/Crossovers and they are excellent. They are slightly thicker than the stock Hohner combs and the air chambers are LONGER (but not wider) than the stock Hohner combs. Frankly, I'm not all that impressed by the other Hetrick combs I've tried, but the Hetrick bamboo MBD/Crossover combs are in a class by themselves---outstanding compression.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2012 10:02 AM
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florida-trader
122 posts
May 09, 2012
12:45 PM
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Duane:
Thanks for sharing the results of your “experiment” so far. The entire subject of comb thickness is fascinating to me because, as I had related to you in our emails, I have had several requests recently for THINNER combs. Additionally, I have had a lot of positive feedback about my acrylic combs which are thinner. Many specifically state their belief that the thinner combs make their harps more responsive. And now you report that you like the thicker combs.
Your quote, “I found the harp easier to play, the bends work better as do the overblows and overdraws. Seems a bit louder and warmer.” is exactly what I have had others say about the thinner combs. Go figure.
So here’s my theory. One size DOES NOT FIT ALL. Perhaps you are onto something. The “ideal” comb thickness (and hence size of the reed slots) is different depending upon the size of the player’s resonance chamber. Style of play might have something to do with it too. Maybe people who are soft players prefer thinner combs and “hard” players do better with thicker combs because of the larger chambers they make.
So here’s another thing for you customizers out there to consider when making harps for your clients – mouth size – as if you didn’t have enough to worry about already.
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harpdude61
1377 posts
May 09, 2012
12:52 PM
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I love this harp. I'm already thinking I'll probably bulk order and change all my harps to thicker combs.
hvyj..I will try it on high harps. I have a high G that Todd Parrott made me from a F# that already plays great on a stock comb. It plays very fat for a higher harp. It will love this comb!
When I refered to hole spacing, what I meant was basically center of one hole to the next. So even if you make the partitions between holes thinner or thicker, the hole spacing remains constant.
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harpdude61
1378 posts
May 09, 2012
12:57 PM
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I agree Tom. We have seen how players prefer different brands of harp and different set-ups. Why should x" comb thickness be ideal for everyone.
I've had three materials for combs for my GMs but this is the first time I ever played a wooden comb. It changes the color of the tone more than any I've tried.
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FreeWilly
207 posts
May 09, 2012
12:58 PM
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Have those clients also tried thick combs that are extremely flat?
The first time I sanded a comb, I thought that the thinness of it helped me play. Now that I've tried it side by side a thicker, also flat comb, I'm not so sure. I think a thick harp helps open up your yaw and play relaxed. And I have a small mouth (ask my orthodontist :)) A thin harp helps to close your lips very tight to the harp perhaps, but that's not good for the overall tone...
This is all just my guessing of course!
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hvyj
2374 posts
May 09, 2012
1:56 PM
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@FreeWilly: Extremely flat is the whole point of using custom combs. Of course, the rivets on the bottom reed plate have to be sanded, too. If you are having thicker combs custom made, they should be extremely flat or you are not getting what you are paying for.
Before his passing, Buddha had mentioned that he thought the effect of a thicker comb was sorta similar to the effect of a double reed plate. I dunno, I've never tried a harp with a double reed plate.
Florida Trader's Blue Moon silver aluminum GM combs are very impressive, IMHO. Very flat and outstanding compression. Haven't tried any of the other Blue Moon combs, though.
Thinner combs have a quicker response and a different effect on tone than thicker combs. Useful in certain situations, but in general I prefer thicker combs. In general, I think thicker combs are more resonant. But, YMMV.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2012 2:01 PM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
964 posts
May 10, 2012
4:23 PM
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I did a lot of experimenting with this. I found
1) Nothing, nothing is more important than flatness.
2) thickness of the comb depends on your embouchure. There doesn't seem to be anything about it that correlates with tone. The only except I've found is that when you go really thick, it seems to get a little more sluggish, but not everybody would be able to tell the difference.
3) this is another embouchure thing, but it seems that really thin combs - like a little more than half regular comb thickness - work better for rack playing. You take it out of the rack and it plays like crap. Put it in the rack and it plays awesome. Embouchure again.
4) Resonance and comb thickness have nothing to do with each other. You'd have to make a comb so thick you couldn't play it for it to be resonant on anything. It's all about how it affects your embouchure.
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David
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Last Edited by on May 10, 2012 4:24 PM
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hvyj
2379 posts
May 10, 2012
4:47 PM
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Dave, I note that HarpDude and I are both throat players, so I have to wonder if this has anything to do with our mutual affinity for thicker combs. In other words, i am wondering if thicker combs work better for throat playing.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
966 posts
May 10, 2012
5:22 PM
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Is the harmonica in your throat? lol... I don't get what you mean. I thought everybody was a throat player, cause that's where the resonance is. Is there something I'm missing?
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David
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hvyj
2381 posts
May 10, 2012
8:22 PM
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Well, some of us don't use that part of the tongue that is in the mouth in order to bend. We use the throat (or root of the tongue that's in the throat) to effectuate bends. i could be wrong, but I'm not under the impression that everybody plays that way.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
969 posts
May 10, 2012
11:08 PM
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Well, I guess I'm a throat player then. My adam's apple goes down to the breastbone when I bend a note. Doesn't seem like you could get much tone if you didn't do that. I assumed everybody draw bended like that.
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David
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harpdude61
1380 posts
May 11, 2012
4:17 AM
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Dave, Good thread awhile back about the throat. Even some famous players claim to bend with the tongue.
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/2972174.htm?page=1
I commented on one of the threads how my Adam's Apple goes up and down between 6 blow, 6 draw bend, 6 draw, and 6 overblow. IMHO, lead with the throat and naturally the tongue will follow.
Comb thickness does not change tone? How about timbre or volume. Are you saying if I played with my new .270 comb and then tried one about .150 I could not hear a difference?
It takes a little more air with the .270 but I honestly feel more control with bending OBs and regular bends.
Interesting stuff.
Last Edited by on May 11, 2012 4:19 AM
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ridge
340 posts
May 11, 2012
7:18 AM
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I find that my harps play best when I have no covers or screws on them and I just hold it together with my fingers. I say this tongue in cheek because I do find this very often to be true, but completely impractical.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
970 posts
May 11, 2012
1:47 PM
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What I mean is comb dimensions aren't going to have an affect on resonance, because combs are not really resonant. Change the tone, maybe. Why, I don't know. From what I've seen the main effect of comb thickness is that it affects your embouchure. Anything that affects your embouchure probably would affect tone. I experimented with this a couple of years, hoping I would find something, but I never did find that smoking gun.
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David
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nacoran
5651 posts
May 11, 2012
3:04 PM
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Has anyone ever experimented with comb angles, making a comb thicker or thinner towards the front or back? Is perpendicular the ideal position for reeds?
Probably is, but it's not a parameter I've heard anyone talk about separately from flat for airtightness.
I've also wondered if structurally, if you had a harp with long cover/square, like for instance the Suzuki Firebreath, if anyone has tried sneaking two extra holes onto a standard sized harp- one on each end.
Obviously it would be a lot of work since you'd have to add slots to the reed plates, and extra reeds, and it might work on a comb designed for recessed reeds better, since they have what amount to braces between the holes and getting chambers that close to the end of the harp might weaken the comb. It would be sort of neat to get a 12 hole harp that fit in a standard case slot.
Also, I know Winslow Yerxa has a comb that separates the reeds top to bottom to create more bending opportunities, but has anyone experimented with sort of partial separation, using the fact that the reeds don't swing on one end to put an angled partition in place? (I've never seen one of Winslow's combs up close, maybe they are angled. The complaint I've heard it they are kind of thick.) How about isolating the other way, so the 1 hole has a partition from the 2 hole that runs all the way up and down to the covers (either soldered onto the reed plate or cut into wooden or soldered onto metal covers.)
How about hollow tines? (Again, a recessed design might be less prone to damage.)
Maybe SPAH could do a kickstarter campaign to commission some of these crazy tests! :)
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Nate
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florida-trader
123 posts
May 12, 2012
7:25 AM
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Nathan:
The Hohner Up To Date harmonicas, which according to Pat Missin is the predecessor of the Marine Band, has a comb that is not only wedge shaped (thinner in the front and thicker in the back) but is also a discrete comb (the "technical" term for the divided reed slots). Here is a link to his website where discusses the evolution of the Marine Band. http://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q38.html
I have three of these harps. Two of them are diatonic (20 reeds) and one is an Auto Valve (40 reeds - 20 of which are valved). These harps are about 100 years old.
So the Auto Valve has the wedge shaped discrete comb and is valved. Many of these concepts are still being experimented with today.
One of the diatonics was essentially new when I got it. Perfect condition. The reed plates just sing with resonance but I'm not crazy about the discrete comb. It eliminates the opportunity for the draw reeds and blow reeds to interact with each other. I've been planning to cut the separator out of another comb I have and try it as a normal diatonic. I am confident that it will sound great.
While we are on the subject of discrete combs, I can make them for anybody who wants to experiment with one. I've already done it. Just let me know.
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Last Edited by on May 12, 2012 7:26 AM
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hvyj
2385 posts
May 12, 2012
8:18 AM
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While we are on the subject of combs, there's also the effect of the compression ridges that the Sjoeberg combs have in the channels.
In general, think narrower combs have quicker response, but if a player has decent technique, I find there's better control with thicker combs. The compression ridges in the Sjoeberg combs sort of produce a firmer airflow, for lack of a better word, which also tends to enhance control, but their effect on tone is hard to describe--neither better nor worse, just different.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
975 posts
May 12, 2012
10:06 AM
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I've made wedge shaped combs. Nothing really noticeable happened. My main G, a circa 1915-1920 Seydel Bandmaster, is on a thick, wedge shaped comb. You only notice the wedge if you look closely. It's a real nice piece of American Chestnut had a nice wormhole in it.
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David
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Kyzer Sosa
1065 posts
May 12, 2012
12:55 PM
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I put a slightly thinner purple Michalek comb on one of my A Marine Bands and spent considerable time comparing the two. My own personal experience with this difference is that the thinner comb requires less breath force to play. cavity is smaller ergo it needs less air pressure to make a sound. if you play it with strong force, it simply doesnt play as well...ive never tried a thicker comb, I can only imagine that the benefit for me there would be that I could give it a little more air, if I were a "hard" player...Of all the A harps I have, the one with Chris' comb suits me best, is the most versatile and used harp in my small collection.
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MP
2257 posts
May 12, 2012
1:29 PM
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personally, i like a thicker comb.
i have come across very thin combed Filisko and Sleigh harps- thinner than others they made. but..a couple of these were clearly wedged-they got thinner at the business end.
harps by those guys play great no matter what.
my own experiments with thin combs fell flat. but i'm not JF either.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
979 posts
May 12, 2012
6:42 PM
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Kyzer, I agree with your theory. However, is there a chance that the thinner comb is flatter?
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David
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Kyzer Sosa
1067 posts
May 12, 2012
11:17 PM
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I dont have a way of comparing one comb to another in that regard...eyeballs only go so far...
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REM
196 posts
May 13, 2012
1:22 AM
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Florida-trader,
The discrete comb does not stop the blow and draw reeds from interacting. You should be able to bend just like you normally would, as long as you're not blocking either the top or bottom half of the slot. The partition really doesn't affect the interaction between reeds. In fact there are certain types of harmonicas that only have one reed per slot/hole, and the first hole will have a blow reed, and next hole will have a draw reed, and they continue alternating like that; so if you put your mouth around two holes (with a blow reed in the right side hole, and a draw reed in the left side hole) you can actually bend the draw reed just like you would on a normal diatonic harp, with the blow and draw reeds interacting with each other from two separate holes.
With the discrete comb you have the partition dividing each slot into two halves (the top half containing the blow reed, and the bottom half containing the draw reed). This allows you to use yours lips to block off either the top or bottom half of the slot, thereby isolating a single reed. This allows you to do things such as single reed bends (so you can bend blow reeds on holes 1-6, and draw reeds on holes 7-10). It also allows much easier, and stronger sounding, overblows/overdraws (and they be bent up extremely high).
If you're having trouble getting standard bends (where the blow & draw reeds interact) with the discrete comb, make sure you're not accidentally blocking off either the top or bottom half of the slot. Also check those old Hohner Up To Date diatonics to make sure none of the reeds are valved. Valves can prevent the reeds from interacting when bending.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 1:23 AM
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florida-trader
126 posts
May 13, 2012
4:32 AM
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REM
Thanks for that information. You learn something new every day. On the Up To Date that I spoke about I can can bend the reeds but not as easily as with a regular comb. I had assume that the discrete comb was the reason. Perhaps it is something as simple as adjusting the gaps. I'll have to tweak it a little and see.
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