ever notice that most the folks who make this kind of statement are fairly accomplished players? i believe i remember johnny lang saying something similar.
what about Tookas' 'blow your brains out' contest? how about Adams contest just recently? you get my point..
Richard Sleigh has weighed in on this topic at least twice to people on his mailing list. once pro competitive, and another missive was con- this gist of the latter was that it is not a good idea to compare your accomplishments with the accomplishments of other others. (he made good cases pro and con.)
well, if you don't compare yourself to other players then one doesn't have a benchmark, goal, or standard with which to gauge progress on the little beast. we are not all touched by genius. :o)
when i was 16 i read Paul Butterfield was 23 when he recorded his first record. My goal was to be as good as he was at 23. obviously this never happened, but i learned a lot of his licks- besides,- i had changed my goal to become Muddy Waters harp player. oh well, at least i got to see him live six times.
What did happen was that all this woodshedding to compete with the cream of the crop Chicago style players improved my playing immensely. i didn't limit my interests to blues guy only either. Charlie McCoy was a huge influence.
what say you?
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Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2012 2:11 PM
Approaching playing for others as a contribution, rather than a competition is a healthy attitude in my opinion. The desire to 'be the best' in any endeavor can be motivating for some, but is bound to bring dissapointment and frustration for others. ---------- Lucky Lester
I don't try to compete with anyone but me. My goal at any given point is to play better than past days. I try to associate with better players than me because the conversations pay off as much as the actual playing. I associate with a local guy who likes what I do but he is clearly a better harmonica player than me and the polar opposite in the fact that he is not a gear head one bit outside of owning a kinder. I feel pretty confident that I am somewhere near the lower top end locally if one were to make a list. There are 4 or so guys who are better by a good bit that i know who gig regularly. There are other great less serious players who have a lot of years in it and they play good harp along the same level as me but different approaches but could be dramatically better if they focused on playing outside of the jams.
The top two are tragically underrated outside of southern Maine. Dw gill and tommy o'connell
This leaves me some big talent to learn from.
The thing I admire most about the couple guys locally who kill it is how humble and helpful they are. I have little reason to compete because they share openly what they know. Infact we might try to start a harmonica club. That is one thing that is great here the guys who play the jams or gig with frequency are very supportive of eachother and it goes without saying that you don't talk anyone down. There is a great deal of respect and you can get constructive critiscism if you ask.
I have had tremendous fun playing with the guy whom I respect the most on stage with his band trading licks on several occasions. In a fun competitive way. Doing that teaches so much because you are trying to respond to each others ideas with out sounding the same live. It forces you to work in your own voice. dueling harmonicas is so much fun.
This is the reason this forum rocks there are so many players who are way better than me that I learn something new all the time.
Competition is good for business... so they say :) I think a little healthy competition is not a bad thing. its when it goes from friendly trading licks to serious 'head cutting' that I am out. Applies to anything musically. I just have never seen the point of trying to make the other guy look bad. The trick is to have fun , be competitive , but not get nasty.
If there aren't real judges critiquing performances for prizes - then it's more of a I hope I can please the audience as well as the other acts have kinda deal. The only thing your really competing for in that case is the love and appreciation of the audience.
Music in it's purist form is not competition, but as human's we have a knack of messing up a good thing. Competition is all around us everyday. Things we don't even realize. At one level or another it is in music also. Competition is human nature!
I play harps as a means of participation rather than competition....I have been a blues lover since the mid 60s listening to john r on nashvilles WLAC....from what I have on postings of talent on this forum,Im way down the food chain but thats alright...just want to blow harp to the best of my ability
I've never particularly liked the idea of music as competition--harp blowoff shows, Hohner and Seydel's annual competitions, etc.--but of course they are part of our blues/harmonica culture. My own playing tends to suffer when I'm onstage with somebody trying to outdo them. I tend to play show-offy rather than getting inside the music, listening to the music in me, and trying to express it in the fullest way possible.
But of course the history of blues and jazz instrumentalism is partly the history of head-to-head competition: the cutting session. This is absolutely a part of what the African American jazz tradition has always been about, and it seems to have seeped into the blues tradition. The movie CROSSROADS features a blues cutting session between white boys with a black man's soul at stake. Kansas City in the 1930s was a legendary spot for extended cutting sessions. The idea was that head-to-head battles would force each player to dig deeper and deeper, coming up with stuff that wouldn't otherwise get played.
The Hohner and Seydel annual competitions have a somewhat different historical grounding. They're modeled, I believe, on the sort of competitions that have been a part of the European concert music tradition for a long time. Van Cliburn's piano competition in Fort Worth, Texas comes from that. There are several jazz competitions that come from that. There, you're not engaged in a blow-off, but instead are performing sequentially and being judged by your individual performance.
The key thing is that both sort of competitions have a long history. They're not something external to the music; they're not a recent perversion.
I would say that the "Throwdown With the Pros" competition that I had here was in the spirit of the Hohner competition. It was just a light entertainment, in a sense: something to get the competitive juices going, but with the underlying purpose of stimulating players to learn some unfamiliar licks and to pay closer attention to each others playing--and, heck, my playing--than they might otherwise have paid. I think that's a good thing. Basically I just wanted to make sure that folks still knew how to pay very close attention to tricky passages, figure out what was going on, and reassemble the notes into something resembling music.
Here's an amazing video: Part II of a two-video set called "the Legend of 1900" about a cutting session between Jelly Roll Morton and a classical whiz. If you've got time, watch part I first--easy to find on YT. If not, just watch this:
You compete all the time - YouTube views, site visits, tips, gigs, CD sales, etc. There is an endless amount of music to check out. You are competing with that to get your music heard.
The only time I think the competition can be avoided is when not trying to play for others.
I don't know. I feel I should own up a little after Adam's post. I posted my intention to compete in the Throw Down and that was a sincere aim. I also made a stupid comment that there wasn't anything in the solo I couldn't play. In truth I found the octave playing elusive. I just couldn't find it.
I've always avoided anything competitive in life, choosing BMX freestyle and skateboarding over more conventional sports like soccer and such like as a kid. I've never been interested in pitting myself against another human being.
The Throw Down initially seemed easy (plus a free ticket and $100 towards the flight would have given me a chance to go), then the entries started coming in, which shook me at the sheer facility some players had in copping and digesting licks and entire passages within such a short space of time. Perhaps I could have done this 20 years ago, but as I'm getting older, I'm finding that I have a less acute ear. I used to play keys in my funk band and could hear inversions of complex jazz chords easily. Those days are gone, but one illusion as you progress in years if that you have the body and mind that you had in your youth.
As far as competition is concerned, if I'm honest, it's for the youngsters who have something to prove. I'll keep plugging away and my sound is improving thanks to the tips I get from this place, but I'm never going to be a technician and amaze my peers here. Hopefully one day, I'll move someone musically. I don't for one minute think competitions are a waste of time. I learned a massive amount from the Throw Down, especially the 4 overblow lick, but competing is simply not for me.
Sorry, just a mind dump, but it was some catharsis for me.
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2012 1:47 PM
The way I came up you had to walk a fine line to get in the scene. You had to be respectful, sit around for weeks or years to get on a good stage, and once up their you had to prove you could return. That meant doing the best you had not only with technique but with the energy you project. If your thing was being a sideman, being more or less invisible and not stealing anything from the frontman was the key. If you were a front man in the making, like I was, you could easily piss off and threaten the established guys if you got the crowd going more than they would like. In the movies, at this point in the story, you would be heralded a new sensation and the doors would open. But in the blues scene that often meant you got banished and had to work on the perimeter of the scene. The guys that held the club gigs often had worked for decades for that night on the small stage and they would not give it up. I found the blues scene to be way to paranoid of a new guy that got the crowds going. Some of the older players dug it. They had nothing to fear, but the up and coming guys that tended to dominate the local blues scenes, would do whatever they could to make you disapear. They were the on deck guys to inherit the throne (that little tiny stage in that tiny little club).This bred a very mean competitive streak in one. I had it for years and still do only I try not to let it come out anymore. I can remember going eye to eye with the head hancho while we exchanged licks and to be honest if looks could kill, one or both of us would not be alive today. Todays scene is much more tame. It is more business like than emotion driven. As much as I hated those scenes, they taught me how to hold my own with anybody onstage. The main thing I have learned is to do what I do. First though, you have to know what it is you really do. This only comes from years of playing and no longer thinking about it and just letting it flow without outside influence. For instance if I got onstage with Jason, I would stick to my thing, not his. Let the other run and when it comes your turn, let your stuff out. I have seen countless guys succumb to the flashy players thing when it wasn't theirs because the flashy stuff will almost always grab the crowd faster than the minimualist player. But if you stick with your thing it will grab the people. That is how a simple John Lee Hooker could hold his own with a T Bone Walker. STICK TO YOUR THING AND LIFE IS A LOT MORE FUN. That simple sentence has taken 40+ years of learning the hard way....... Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
There are a "chosen few" that can do it all...But Truer words have never been spoken for the majority of mankind to heed.
Trust me - if your young, life is short and it will race by you one way or another.
In otherwords if your a "mere mortal" take your pick of "a style" of music you absolutely ADORE and LOVE and master [it.]
Few players can be Charlie MCcoy,Jason Ricci,Rod Piazza,Phil Wiiggins, Howard Levy, Rice Miller,Little Walter,Sonny Terry,Terry McMillan,John Popper and Brendan Power all rolled into one.
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2012 3:48 PM
I'm still fairly new to the live music scene. Having only been playing professionally for about three years now, I haven't really gotten into a purely competetive head-cutting match with anyone.
But then again, there aren't THAT many harp players in my area. Eight or nine tops. For the most part, we're all pretty laid back here in Central Illinois. If we do cut heads, it's always a friendly back-and-forth banter. And the general intention is to compliment each other as we're soloing to make the song sound as good as we can.
One of my fondest memories since I started playing was when Rene Carlson was in town visiting friends, and she came out to our show the night before Thanksgiving. Not only did it make it fun, but the mix that was created by it generated a dynamic that I'd never experienced up until then.
The only two instances of competition between harp players that I've experienced deal more with living up to the predecessor than trying to out-do someone.
My mentor, Bad Bill Robinson, and I sometimes get overly creative onstage together. We both feel like we have quite a bit to prove to each other, to ourselves, and to our patrons. And thus, we often let the wild side of ourselves surface, and it can get a little dicey.
There's also a young fellow in town named Zack Fedor who's added harp to his guitar and vocal skills. I've helped him along on basic things. Harp selection...mic and amp...positions and keys...etc. He's a kid after my own heart, but he has his own style and technique that differs from mine. Lee Oskars, Green Bullet, Blues Junior...as opposed to my Hohner mixture, JT30, Kalamazoo mix. But he's coming along quickly, and I'm proud of him. 15 years old and the kid is already getting gigs. But I sometimes feel like he's creeping up on me a little too quickly. Makes you nervous, you know?
Personally, I don't really feel like I overtly compete with my fellow harpists.
However...
On a level that involves my band, I'd have to say that we do tend to get pretty competetive with the other local acts in our vein of music.
I'll be honest, with the risk of sounding immodest. We really are the busiest band in the area. Our band leader has made this his living, and thus, he books every paying gig he can get, and I'm almost always along for the ride myself. Usually two gigs a weekend if not three, and he hosts one or two open jams during the week. So word of the Hipbone Sam phenomenon has spread pretty extensively throughout the region, and it pays off mostly, except that so much playing time wears out my harps quicker than say a player's whose band only plays two or three times a month.
But this can lead to a kind of competetive jealousy between different bands. The most popular venues, the public events with the most exposure, the private parties where the who's who of the area will be in attendance, the local accolades...it all has the potential to turn into a winner takes all scenario.
I think a good alleviation to the tension comes in the form of the open jams around town though. And when I say that, I must make a distinction. I say open JAM, not open MIC, because there seems to be an underlying difference...
Open MIC's tend to be pretty structured. You have a sign-up sheet, a designated time and time limit, and you usually have to have all your accompaniment with you. An open JAM on the other hand gets all different musicians, some of which have never played together before, and gets them jamming with one another in infinite combinations. This being the latter, I think the coolness individual musicians might feel towards each other warms up a bit as they share in the music, regardless of whether or not they're from rivaling bands. Kinda West Side Storyish huh?
In a nutshell, I don't think that music itself is a competition...but the music BUSINESS...well, that's another story. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2012 6:57 AM
thanks Frank!@ Unfortunately we all have to walk the road of trial and error to find the gold. No way to really rush that.....
HawkeyeKayne: The music world of today is a completely different universe than it was 35 years ago. My words that follow are not intended to put one better than the other, but to simply share some history because I know the majority of the players here were not a part of that scene.
Back then there was a strong club scene in all major cities. These scenes had roots that went way back and the players that ruled them often spent a lifetime in them full time just to hold court in a club that held 50-100 people. There were no open mics like today. They were found in college coffee houses. The blues jams were pro affairs that were invite only. Also the word professional today has a different meaning than it use to. Amatuer players today dominate the club scene, playing for free, or next to free. These clubs use to be stocked with low level pros like me, who played 100+ gigs a year. Little Charlie, Mark Hummel, James harman, and that level player were the ones that dominated this scene.
Most of the guys that post here and call themselves pros would not be back then. They would be basement jammers because they would not be willing to be in the clubs 7 nights a week fighting for a spot and there were no clubs that would host things as they do today.
As the clubs started losing money and saw the income potential with the open mic thing they jumped on it. Pro musicians never paid to get in clubs, drank for free most of the time even when they weren't playing, and got paid when they played. Todays players often play for free, pay to play, or get paid very little - not enough to eat and pay the bills with, and bring in lots of friends that eat and drink.. Todays jams and open mics have to cater to folks that want nice clean, fair, fun. They would walk out of the old style jams because they would sit for a year or more from begining to end before they were allowed up to play. Now it is sign the paper, get your slot and it often runs as punctual as a european train schedule. Many of these new players call themselves pros simply because they play in a club. I guess in todays world they are but they wouldn't be 35 years ago. Times change and so do the definitions.........
The pros didn't sell merchandise off the stage, do jam camps, lessons, and such. They made their income doing gigs. The pros today have to be very careful in what they say. Back then the old guys talked their mind and what they often say would get them banished in todays scene. For instance, it was not uncommon for a pro drummer to go up to a bandleader and tell him he could do a way better job than the drummer he had onstage. Today this would be viewed as a rude, egotistical thing, but then it was a not uncommon way to get onstage and show what you had. One has to look at history in the times it occured to get an understanding of it. It will never make sense in todays world. Slavery was common place for "morally" correct God fearing people back in those times. Today it makes no sense but it did then. Such has the music scene changed into what it is today. Today I doubt we will ever see the life and death kind of stuff that occured onstage during gigs back then. Bill Dicey, a noted harp player tried to kill me because I threatened his little gig at Dan Lynch's in NYC. I held no ill feelings towards him. He was an old dog, tired, boozed out, and terrified of losing his little stage. Being pro back then meant your life was music everynight in clubs. I am glad I went through it and continue to try and stay open hearted to todays scene, which to be honest, lacks real depth to me. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
sure it's a competition. but the first level of competition for me has always been to play above my own skill level. i have had the floor mopped with my face a few times early on but over the years i have found my way into pretty good quality playing, enough so that i always look forward to whatever a night out brings. how many here have participated in a blues challenge toward being chosen as the act to go to IBC in Memphis every february? that is definitely a competition.
but i repeat- one's biggest critic is often oneself. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
That being said, I marvel at the way that old school blues harpists sometimes let their game rise to the occasion when they see someone play well in their presence. Not in a vindictive or cruel way, but just enough to let the other party know who is the boss. It's kind of an unspoken thing, and when it happens, its fun to watch.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2012 4:33 AM
The Hohner Competition is a fantastic event. The judges are very qualified, the variety endless and harmonica players come from all over the world to compete.
The legitimacy of this event raises it well above that "head cutting" attitude. Folks are serious about their playing and will work for a long time on a competition piece to show their best. The rivalry is very friendly (at least according to my three experiences) and the background includes workshops and jamming.
If nothing else, it is worth attending to blow one's minds regarding tremolo harmonica. ---------- The Iceman
Many musical instruments have competitions. Some are very pretigious on an international level. Even vocals...ever hear of American Idol?
You may also have to compete for a spot in a band. Even high school bands have 1st chair,2nd chair, etc.. for every instrument.
Then you have "cuttin headz" whcih can be fun and high energy. Ever see Crossroads scene at the end? Wow!
I'm sure many have witnessed competitions at blues jams and such..even if it is nothing more that trying your best with hopes that you get a little more jam time.
Competition is not for everyone..just like overblows, tongue-blocking, being in a band..etc..etc..
Participants in any type competitions can be classy and great sports about it. I think the desire or need to compete is a personality trait in many people.
I think it would be awesome if Hill Country had a competition...maybe do like the bodybuilders do....jump in front of each oter on stage and play your bestest lick!...lol
Wow! Isn’t it amazing how a simple statement or question can spark such a lively conversation? When I began reading through this thread, I thought I knew how I felt and, of course, thought I was right. But as I read the posts from the various contributors, I got educated. I really felt like I was reading the transcript of a documentary. It made me wonder, “Whatever happened to ‘Pocket Full of Blues’”?
Those of you who have been at this longer or have more experience have opened my eyes and given me a perspective that I did not previously have. My initial reaction to the question was that music should not be a competition. I looked at in two ways. I am a sports enthusiast and sports is definitely competitive – and it should be. In fact, my experience coaching Little League Baseball has shown me that by legislating “fairness” into the game (everybody has to play an equal number of innings and get an equal number of At Bats – regardless of ability, whether or not they show up for practice, hustle or have a good attitude) is bad for the game. It teaches kids the wrong lessons. But I digress.
Unlike a sports competition where the object is the “beat” the other player or team and literally make them look bad in the process, the mission when playing with other musicians should be to work together and make everyone sound better for the benefit of the listeners. Perhaps competition can “inspire” musicians to reach deeper and go places they haven’t gone before but I never imagined it would motivate musicians to “beat” each other. Apparently I live in Utopia Land.
The other take I had about Harmonica Competitions specifically stems from my experience at the Florida Harmonica Championship last October. Each entrant was allowed 2 songs or 15 minutes to demonstrate his or her ability. With that short a time to work with, it seemed that a lot of the “Competitors” fell into a pattern of playing as many notes as they could, as fast as they could as loud as they could. After a few acts, it almost ceased to be music and became noise. Mind you, I’m not being critical of the players because I’m confident that most, if not all of them, are pretty good harp players. It just seemed that given the format and the nature of the “Championship competition” each person felt compelled to cram as many of their favorite licks into the allotted time as possible to impress the judges. So from that perspective the competition detracted from the musical experience – at least it did for me. I would rather see it promoted as a Harmonica Festival, to celebrate the harp, and not a competition.
So after reading Adam’s and Walter’s (and other’s) posts I realized that I am somewhat (happily) naïve. Ttrying to derive most or all of your income from playing music – not just the harp – is no different than competing for a job in an interview. Only one guy wins and every other applicant loses. Every missed opportunity represents lost income. I have never put myself in that position with music. Sports – yes. Music – no. So thank you for an enlightening conversation and a glimpse of the reality of being a professional musician.
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