"[P]lease refrain from flaming, insulting, or otherwise impugning the intelligence or good intentions of your fellow board members.
Sorry Adam, I'm not interested in getting banned from the site - so can you please fill me in on what I said that was so controversial as to warrant locking the thread...I felt my points were spot on, valuble and said in a fair manner!
Do you see the flaming, insulting, or otherwise impugning the intelligence or good intentions of your fellow board members in the comments below.
If I wanted to hear Little Walter, I would listen to... Little Walter. I think way too many people are chasing after Little Walter and trying to sound just like him when people need to be sounding like themselves. Now, I mean it's cool if you wanted to maybe take one of his songs and copy it and play it on stage somewhere as part of a set or something. I, like Joe_L, would hang around and listen to it live. But the real issue here is people spend way too much time trying to sound like other people when they should be trying to sound like themselves. That's my 10 cents.
You may not - I'm sure many others do...Just because someone can hide their insults etc. within a paragraph, without bringing notice to it doesn't make it right. I'm not saying Dave did that conciously but trust me - the impugning the intelligence or good intentions of fellow board members is in there...
I've always thought Dave as a swell guy and still do, I can have a spirited spat and remain a happy camper. No hard feelings on my part!
Frank - No offence intended. I really can't see any insult in Dave's comment that you quoted above. It would seem to be just his opinion of people copying other artists work versus playing their own material. Now maybe I'm missing something or maybe you are reading into it something which isn't there. I honestly don't know. My thoughts are it's probably best to let this subject just die a nice slow death. If you have a gripe over something you perceive to be wrong it might be a better idea to send Adam a personal email on the subject rather than air it on the forum. I suspect airing it here could just serve to inflame matters. Of course that's just my opinion and we all know what they say about opinions.
No offence taken Kingley - some will some won't...
I was hoping to get clarification from Adam on the matter at hand, so I could write better rebuttals.
How would you or Adam put into words the point I was making to Dave. Could you please read what I stated and put it into a proper context for me, so I could learn the right way to respond.
Frank: You started off saying that a comment David admired was a "lame cop out and total BS". Then you accused him of giving "BULLSHIT EXCUSES" and "passin it off like it's wisdom". Next you called him "clueless" and then finally you said he came off as a "cry baby".
My advice to you would be: don't write things like that. There's a huge difference between Dave's disagreeing with your opinions and you insulting him.
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2012 2:59 PM
my take is. you are assuming in others what you believe in yourself, and if they dont think as you, they are lesser.
My reasons for doing or not doing something will likely not parallel yours, and about a great many things. I dont agree with your reasons that people do or do not play juke.
I dont care if Rick Estrin or Kim Wilson thinks my playing is rudimentary, Im not trying to please them, Im trying to please a crowd full of people whove never even seen a harmonica close up. Why would you care if a top level performer thought you had good chops? do you require that acknowledgment?
I guess what im saying is, your train of thought works for you, dont belittle people who think differently. variety is the spice of life. ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork "Music in the soul can be heard by the universe." - Lao Tzu
Frank, I think you are reading too much into the comment. Dave was stating a case for not sounding like Little Walter, and a personal preference for a style of play that is about finding your own voice. The only thing that could be taken as a slight is the part about people spending too much time trying to sound like someone else, and I think you really have to stretch it to take it as a personal attack. Even if he'd singled someone out directly it really was more advice than an attack, and he didn't single anyone out. Your remarks after that were much more personally directed.
Also, although I only know Dave from the internet and as a someone I bought a harp from, I'd always give him the benefit of the doubt. He's one of those people that always seems laid back and nice, the sort of person that if I found myself arguing with I'd stop myself and scratch my head and try to figure out what the miss-communication was, because if I'm arguing with Dave, it's over something that got lost in translation. I've never seen any sign that he has a mean bone in his body.
One of the problems with the internet particular, and language in general, is that sometimes things get taken the wrong way. Especially on the internet, whenever I run into something that sets me off I try to sit back for a second and see if there is another way to read whatever it is that set me off.
As for trying to learn to play like someone else, I can see value in that. I can see value in playing original material too. I've never sat down and tried to learn someone else's harp part; usually I'm ripping of horn and vocal melodies instead. I've thought about trying to sit down and learn a few more standards but I never get around to it. I'm more interested in writing new stuff, but that's just me. I picked up the harmonica because I wanted an instrument to go with the lyrics I write. Other people pick up the harp because they hear a riff they want to be able to play, or because someone tells them it will help them get women. We all have our own motivations and tastes. I suspect, that at this point in my playing, I could, with some work, get Juke down to the point where I wouldn't be embarrassed to play it in public, but honestly, there are about a million other songs that fit my style better that I'd rather work on. I do like Juke. I like hearing it, no matter who plays it (as long as it's played well).
All performance is a balance between mimicry and creativity, personal voice and homage to those that have gone before us. Some people may in fact be copping out when they choose not to take on the classics, but they may also just be finding a different way to balance things out that makes them happy. You didn't leave much room for that possibility in your posts.
Dont sweat if Frank-people such has ourselves,i.e. the more traditional blues approach to playing,are the monority here. Take everything posted here with a grain of salt-and do what thou wilt. Theres some good information here,and some not so good. You have to sort through it with a fine tooth comb to find the real gems,due to the fact that so little good info is posted here as pertains to traditional blues playing-the critical resources for us lie in players and instructors such as Dennis Gruenling,Jerry Portnoy,David Barrett,and Joe Filisko. A lot of people who post here feel that what they say is fact,and there is no other way. That is just not true when it comes to traditional blues music-it was performed and recorded way before we came along,so all we have to go by is what was laid down back then. I feel your pain Frank,but most of the people here just can't relate-you and I just happen to love playing and listening to the music the way it was recorded and played all those years ago-we like to listen to as close a proximity to that sound as possible-but we are the minority.
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2012 4:24 PM
Timeistight, exactly. Tmf714, I'd challenge you on the traditional vs. modern. I think what you are describing is more canon versus new creation. It's certainly possible to write a new 'traditional' song stylistically, but what you seem to be saying is that if it wasn't written 50 years ago or more it doesn't belong to a traditional style. The only way that makes sense to me is if you are specifically trying to play just songs the audience already knows. There is a time and a place for that, but that's not the way the guys who wrote that music were thinking when they wrote it. They were trying something new.
Of course, at the same time they were playing, there were probably oompah bands telling them they were playing the harmonica wrong with all that fancy bending. :)
Play whatever you want unless someone is paying you to do it their way. As a learning tool, copying solos is a great form of ear training. Even if you get a solo down pitch perfect that doesn't mean you have to play it that way. Of course, if the original artist is dead, there can be a good market for dead on covers. Weezer does some killer Nirvana covers.
edit: and odd as this sounds, I got into Nirvana after hearing Tori Amos cover them on piano, which is basically the opposite end of the spectrum and a good example of why it can be good to do covers differently sometimes.
---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2012 8:51 PM
I've made a living as a professional writer since my early 20s. I read that paragraph you posted four or five times and I'll be danged if I can find it. Now, my supposed lack of ability thing, the cry baby thing, don't you think THAT would have pissed me off? Don't you think I would have said something THEN? But even AFTER I didn't return the salvo, you're bringing up this mystery insult to Adam that I can't figure what it is despite the fact I wrote it. Also there is a "contact me" on the left side of the page. That is the best place to ask Adam questions directly.
The following paragraph has nothing to do with you, I didn't even know who you were at this time, OK? It used to be I let stuff get to me. I don't know if you know who I am, but I used to have a LOT of harmonica videos on Youtube. I posted the first harmonica repair and customization videos on youtube in the English language. When I started, there was only one gapping video in italian. that was it. You wouldn't believe the shit I'd put up with for years, because there are a lot of mean people on the internet who say a lot of cruel things for no reason, when you put yourself out there and try to contribute something for the greater good. I mean people who never made a contribution in their lives, just bombarding with all this stupid tormenting bullshit, like my a still of my boat was in one video and somebody says "Your boat is a complete piece of shit" (that was a TAME one I try not remember some of the others), stuff like that. Even though almost all my videos are gone, I still get them EVERY DAY on the few I have left... over and over and over and over and over and over and over for YEARS. When you're getting hundreds of thousands of Youtube views (that's collectively, my highest was around 50,000 views)Most people have been wonderful, kind, beautiful human beings... unfortunately, the others can be very cruel and very, very loud. Mind you, even when Jason was at his highest point, he put up with a million times more than I could dream of and from a million times more people probably because he had a lot more viewers than I. About a year ago, it got to me and I said "I'm done. No more. This is the end." I didn't make a big deal of it, didn't announce it anywhere, I was just going to fade out. I deleted around 100 Youtube videos, quietly left this and every other harmonica forum I was posting on, I even quit posting on my own Elk River forum. Even took the Elk River Web site down for a while. I can't say that this stuff was to blame for it, because it wasn't but various stressors overall got me and I had some heart trouble back in December, spent some time in the CAMC cardiac ward with all the old men saying "You're WAY too young (36 yrs.)to be in here!"... But I did get better. My heart started beating right again and I came to a conclusion, I just don't give a shit about negativity anymore. It's not going to bother me. Nobody is going to bother me anymore.
Now this is the part that is about you. No matter what you say, it's not going to piss me off. Nobody is going to have that power over me anymore. So, if in the future, you think that I'm making some comment against you personally, you are dead wrong. I never did play that game. In the past, I got mad, but held it in in the interest of behaving with class. Now, I really don't care. I cannot emphasize enough how much I do not care. That doesn't mean I don't care about you. It means I don't care what you think, if it's different than what I think. I have always believed the ownership of ideas is irrelevant and we all have something to say and a right to be heard. The main difference now is, if somebody is jumping my case, I'm not going to care. I'm also very upfront. If I have a problem, I will make it clear. There will never be a veiled insult from me, OK?
In a nutshell, I am not angry with you. I never was. I probably never will be. I'm not going to give anyone that power.
@Dave: I hear you on the YouTube commentary... I get those same dumb comments on my videos from time to time (I think I have probably had more than 150k views combined)... They always make my heart lurch up in my throat despite the fact that I KNOW the people who posted are just doing to get their rocks off... I wonder if they've ever really stopped to consider what their ego-fulfilling, self-centered trolling really does to the people they troll. But I'm a fairly no-sweat guy, so after the initial shock (which I experience EVERY time), I casually hit the "delete" button and Voila, no more troll! Now, I seriously doubt that any of those dirty trolls have ever come back to check on the status of their post (or "troll droppings", as I like to call them), but it gives me great satisfaction to know that I can just make it all disappear, so they couldn't find it again, even if they wanted to!
PS, sorry to hear about the heart problems! Yes, you are WAY too young for all that! I'm glad to hear it's cleared up! ---------- == I S A A C ==
I LOVE YOU MOONCAT!!!!!!! YOU ARE THE AWESOMEST!!!!
@Isaac. Thanks. I enjoy your videos. I think this one was my favorite:
For those of you who don't know Isaac, he's the coolest ever, that's what he does for a living... goes to Egypt and stuff to retrieve the staff of Rah, to Petra for the Holy Grail and whatnot. Seriously. Isaac, what is your position on snakes? We gotta talk sometime, Isaac. I got some questions about ancient Egyptian beer and tetracycline.
I'm not sure who's going where, but this looks like a kind of group hug, so I'll contribute something.
I used to get much angrier and stressed when arguing with someone on-line than when arguing face-to-face. That was weird. I had a heart-attack in February. It wasn't stress, it was congenital heart disease. My grandfather died of it at 55. I hope I outlive him. I plan to spend the rest of my life laughing at stress and anger.
It's good to try to sound like someone else some of the time, but it's not good to try to sound like someone else all the time. Does that end that discussion tidily?
The internet is big. It contains people of all intelligences (I sound like Walt Whitman there!). The stupidity of some Amazon reviews amazes me. The stupidity of some Youtube comments amazes me. The comments on Rottentomatoes reviews always amaze me.
Christelle was once criticised for deleting negative feedback. I totally support her. I write a semi-anonymous Classics blog. I allow comments because they may be of use to me. But I'm going to make sure I own those comments when they have been written and delete anything I can't use. I'm not going to let idiots upset me.
Peace and love. ---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000874537399
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2012 3:26 AM
@Dave: I had a similar thing with the old ticker. Well, kind of. About 5 years ago I was starting my business and was determined to make it a success, so I did all the usual, working all the hours, working when I was sick, trying to make every deal I could and so on. After one particularly stressful day, I started getting pains in my chest going down my arms. Rang the doc and got told an ambulance was on on it's way.
Long story short I was suffering from pericarditis, which is an inflammation of the sack around the heart. Reasons were stress and illness (colds), which I worked through and the infection traveled to my pericardium. I was treated as having a heart attack and the condition is lethal if not treated, but it's easily fixed with rest and anti inflamatories (ibropofen).
The real kicker and the moral of the story was the customer I was dealing with that day. The following day, she called the office and demanded to speak with me. After being told I'd been admitted to hospital and given the reason why, she said 'Well that doesn't get me my product, does it?'.
When my colleague told me this, I decided on the same attitude you have. I'm never going to let someone else have the power to affect me to the detriment of my health.
I'm never going to be richest guy in the world, but I won't be the richest guy in the graveyard either.
Kudos to your attitude. We're a long time dead and I salute you sir.
Dave, very, very well said. I hope writing it helped you as much as it helped me. It certainly reflected my own development in terms of communicating with people. This on-line thing can be very tricky business.
@tmf: I have neither fear nor favor when it comes to forum creed violations. I don't care whether the offender is a modernist or a traditionalist. The late Chris Michaelek was a radical modernist, as you know; he also had a bad habit of insulting people--of making it personal--and I ended up banning him the day before he died.
This forum had a lot of trouble with flaming in the six months before that took place, and in the aftermath of that period, I acquired four moderators and gave them the power they needed to keep this place civil. They have done a very good job of that.
It is possible to strongly disagree with the things people say here and remain civil about it. In case you haven't noticed, blues harmonica players as a group can be.....tweaky. I wouldn't have it any other way. But I'd still ask of everybody here that you make a daily effort not to let disagreements about harmonica stuff, even strident disagreements, become personal.
Mellow down easy, as the great Little Walter once said.
@ElkRiver the comment you made "not giving anyone power over me" was the same advice a creole friend who came to knoxville from new orleans after katrina gave to me....I cherish his advice and the wisdom behind it
I've always been in excellent health, but you never know - "But for the Grace of God There Go I" I'm happy you guys a figuring out how to love yourself and all others cause if it's done superficially,as you know the results can be catastrophic...
I'm a genuinely very kind, gentle, caring, understanding and loving man. Sure a few of the posts have brought out the Andrew Dice Clay in me...
But 99% 0f my posts are fun loving and not raining on anyone's parade...
How does banishment actually go down here...Is there a (purgatory) for the the folks who rarely have an un-premeditated sin against the forum,but because of their humanness they fail to live up to forum standards 24-7 or is the person thrown into hell for eternity? Even holy men have a rare bad day...
But I regress, I don't feel like traditional blues is the minority around here. Even though there is a "modern" attached, I don't see any of the members living up to the title, well Brendon Power is the exception :)- No offence but even Jason Riccis stuff is "oldhat" it isn't modern anymore...
And Everyone critiques things. That's a reason why I don't play Riccis stuff or looping songs. Those styles are so familiar now and the people dissect them with a fine tooth come.
If I wanted to hear Jason Ricci play, I would listen to... Jason Ricci play. If I wanted to hear Son of Dave... I would listen to Son of Dave. There are too many people going after Jason Ricci and Son of Dave and trying to sound just they are - Players need to be sounding like who they are. it's fine if you wanted to maybe take a song of theirs and copy it and play it out in a club as part of a set or something. I might hang around and listen to it live. But the problem here is people spend way too much time trying to sound like Jason Ricci and Son of Dave etc... when they should be trying to sound and be like who they really are.
And when players do put something up that is "their own modern version" of trying to be or sound like Jason or SOD, it most always comes off as a ho-hum -I've heard this done a million times kind of thing, and it's always done WAY better by the "originators! Even Jim Carey falls Short of the real thin... it's okay and no offence- but it's an "impostor" Like so many of the self proclaimed "modern" blues harmonica players who in reality come off as "posers" most of the time...
And I apologize Dave, if you felt like I brought a gun to a sword fight, my intent wasn't to shoot you down. I never thought what you said was towards me, it was obvious it was geared to the general population of players who enjoy playing Little Walters music...
I was trying to simply point out that it seems every time Little Walter is mentioned, the (LW vigilantes) show up and go about with the same old rhetoric, why this, why that, you should this - "its beating a dead horse". If someone decides to talk about Little Walter or play his Music, "people are better off" leaving them alone, They have there reason for diggin LW...
So much negativity is thrown around when LW is brought into threads. Like I said I'm human and can be drawn into it...But most of the time, I can and do remain civilly tempered. So I hope there is a purgatory for someone like me, where there is yet hope to be welcomed back into the kingdom after due punishment. I never set out with the intent to violate forum creed, I'm mostly innocent but have failed to uphold my high standards on rare occasions and for that I apologize. Like I mentioned my health has always been great and I credit a much of that to my ability to remain kind, loving, honest and most of all forgiving for at least 363 days out of 365!
I haven't read all the posts or watched any of the vids but I like your playing Frank and I want to hear a lot more of it. I like your energy and passion for what you do. ----------
Frank, You just rewrote what I said about copying Little Walter, "If I wanted to listen to Little Walter, I would listen to Little Water..." pretty much word for word, only inserting names of guys you think I'm listening to. I would assume this would be to illustrate a point and I will somehow feel different about it because different names are in there. I don't. I agree as much with your rewriting of my paragraph as the one I wrote. So, I would assume you and I have been agreeing all along on that?
After you got warning from Adam and Adam closed the thread, you started a new one, saying hey look at what David said. Then later, I did get a chuckle out of the apology, when you actually apologized for the way I felt. That was pretty funny. On the other hand, I'm going to disagree strongly with Jason being "old hat." You went for my jugular when you imagined I was making some similar slight against Little Walter. You'd have to know from this thread alone that Jason is a close friend whom I value very much. But I'm not getting sucked in.
This will be the last post of yours I respond to on this. No offense. This subject should have been dead long ago. It should have been dead when Adam locked the thread and said this conversation is over. You're not up against a guy who feels like he brought a sword to a gunfight, like you mentioned, this is a guy who brought a nothing to nothing fight. I don't know how I can possibly make myself more clear about not giving a damn. Thus, there is no point in my continuing to try.
And here I thought that Frank was going to sing some lyrics to "City Of New Orleans"....
As a person who runs amok on blogs, and has occasionally gotten carried away on this forum, I understand the need for at least SOME rules of governance to keep the fisticuff action down. As a person who believes that political correctness is the scourge of modern society and a plague that must be stopped whenever it appears, I hesitate to cheer rules which restrain freedom of speech. I mean, if something is obviously and truly BS, then it should be duly noted without it being taken personally.
Adam has done a very good job balancing the equities, which is why I continue to read and post. But ladies and gentlemen, we all know what it is when we see it. When it starts getting rough in a personal vein, a warning is in order. Two strikes and you are out is a good rule. If you can't see it yourself despite a warning, on a MUSIC blog, a HARMONICA blog for goodness sakes, a good swift kick in the ass out of here is more than in order. What I read was getting a bit testy, and it was handled the right way.
If someone says that so-and-so musician sucks, that's only opinion, folks. As an example, getting all hot and bothered because someone thinks that your personal harmonica god isn't in the Top Five All Time, or that your favorite harp is shit, is no way to get through life. That is all.
My policy: any negative, offensive, insulting, trolling comments or messages I get on YouTube result in immediate blocking of the offending party with zero remorse on my part. It's easy, and it keeps "them" from getting to me. I'm approaching 3.5M hits, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let the jerks win. The nice people represent a substantial majority, by the way.
For the sake of the quiet, decent people, and for the betterment of the harp world, I hope you get back out there, Dave. ---------- 12gagedan's YouTube Channel
