You are using too much force in your playing. 5 hole inhale has the least "tolerance" for using too much force and is often the first or most frequent source of excessive reed stress, especially if you lean into it with a bending attitude.
So, you need to learn to breath the harmonica rather than suck and blow through it, as well as understand where the "floor" is in bending downward and not try to drive your reed through the "floor". ---------- The Iceman
are you trying to bend the draw five? if so don't...they have a habit of breaking when you do. you might even be bending the five draw without knowing it. record yourself and listen.
by the way....it's really hard to break a lee oskar reed.
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2012 4:38 PM
You're coming off the lower holes too hard and maybe you're bending past the floor. You can't bend the five at all, any bend pressure on it is tough. The same could be said for four draw. Although, if you are playing with too much force, it's usually the draw reeds that go out. If your bending way way too hard, you're blow reeds will go out. ---------- David Elk River Harmonicas
Well, one can put a little quarter tone bend on draw 5 with no ill effects. But if one bends to pitch instead of just bending as far as one can harps last longer and the playing is more musical.
Also, good breath technique produces less strain on the reeds. All air pressure should com from the diaphragm NOT the lips or mouth. If the player uses deep diaphragmatic air production and keeps the jaw relaxed and open and the mouth and lips relaxed, you can actually play pretty hard and not stress the harp.
I haven't blown out a harp in 5 years or so and I play out multiple nights most weeks.
Hohners are not particularly durable. But if a player is blowing out Suzukis and LOs, I suspect the problem is with the player's technique, not the instruments.
I do bend the 4 draw on a D harp often because I like what I get (mostly from playing Carey Bell riffs), not so much on C or the other keys. I see what you mean about bending the 5 hole draw in C, it is difficult to do. As far as 5 draw bending, I guess that is a habit, although I will need one full session to check it out more fully.
I generally do not practice amplified, so I may be putting too much force in the 4 and 5 hole area (generally) to get more volume.
I also think what may be happening is when I come back higher on the harp after a turnaround, I have a tendency to draw my notes (as many do) and as the result am overstressing the reeds in the middle of the harp. I will have to watch the pressure. In the meantime, any good clips or cites on embrochure and breathing?
Thanks for the advice.
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2012 5:51 AM
I never bend 5draw although there are those who say it can be done of which I am not doubting their word...yesterday I blew out 5draw on a suzuki folkmaster so I am assuming it was the 4-5 draw warble which I tend to overdo...I am just obsessed with that!
I´m probably the last one to say wise things about breaking reeds, but you mention Carey Bell. From right off the cuff I´d say that not only does C.B. lean heavily on 4D as you say, but doesn´t he often force 5D down quite a bit? I´ve never liked this aspect of his playing -- it sounds a bit off, frankly -- but if you´re a big C.B. fan you may be aware the he could be a costly act to follow in all his manners. Maybe Carey had a Hohner deal? Cheers, Martin
It sounds like you are bending for effect without regard to a target PITCH.
Suggestion: Play NOTES instead of bends. Try these exercises (playing the do-re-mi scale in 2nd and 3rd positions).
2d position: B1 D1 B2 D2** D2 D3** D3 B4
3d position: D1 B2 D2* D2 D3** D3 D4* D4
*=half step bend **=whole step bend
Since we all know what a major do-re-mi scale is supposed to sound like, it's easy to identify the target pitches by ear in these exercises to know when you've hit them correctly.
There's no reason to be bending D5 unless you want to play a "harmonic 7th" or "blues 7th" every now and then for flavor in 2d position. But if you don't have sufficiently developed technique to be bending to pitch consistently well in order to hit the conventional notes accurately on your bends, there's no point in screwing around with a quarter tone bend on D5 anyway.
Don't bend just because you CAN. Have a particular note in mind. You'll be easier on your harps, easier on the musicians you play with and easier on your audience.
Now, it IS part of the blues idiom to place the pitch of the flat third. flat fifth and flat seventh other than precisely at the half step depending on the chord and what is going on with the melody. But learn to hit the half and whole step bends accurately on pitch first--then the idiomatic variations are pretty easily played.
For example, in second position, the flat 7th is D2**, D5 and D9. Learn to hit D2** accurately. After you do that, you can take D2** or D5 down a quarter tone further every now and then for effect if you feel like it ad if it fits the music. But learn to bend D2** accurately to pitch first.
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2012 6:45 AM
It might be an interesting exercise for the Blues Harp Forum members to look in their harp graveyard, and see if there is a pattern with blown reed problems (key, direction) in their particular situation.
No, BENDING per se does NOT damage reeds. It's the stress caused by improper technique that causes premature reed failure. That and regularly bending down past the "floor" of the lowest target pitch.
Now, even with proper technique and good pitch control all harps will EVENTUALLY wear out and/or go flat. But catastrophic failures early in the life of the instrument should not be a common occurrence.
And, btw, it's not just force level or pressure. It has a lot to do with HOW you create the pressure. If you play hard and use lip/mouth pressure it's very easy to blow out a harp in 2 nights of playing. 30+ years ago I'd blow out a harp in a weekend before I knew any better. Now harps last me 5+ years. Reeds do sometimes go a little flat after a few years, but those can be retuned.
Now, on Hohners, every now and then a reed may crack from wear. But I've never had that happen on a Suzuki or LO.
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2012 7:05 AM
Another thought: Purely as a stylistic matter, I strive for very even tone. Among other things, this means I try to keep the tone of the bent notes even with the tone of the unbent notes which, btw, is not completely doable, but it does focus me on not slamming my bends. Of course, I'll dirty up a bend every now and then for effect.
But the even tone thing won't suit everyone's style of play.
@atty1chgo, it sounds like you are CLEARLY guilty of BOTH using FAR too much breath force as well as bending past the floor of the bend, both of which are flat out BAD PLAYING TECHNIQUES, and since you're blowing out the same notes regardless of the brand/manufacturer, that's pretty much cut and dry here and you can't be blaming the instruments on that at all.
5 draw is a common problem, especially with newer players because they have absolutely ZERO breath control. One thing you should bear in mind is that the notes in that hole are only 1/2 step apart, and you only have 1/4 step and all you're doing by trying to bend so hard is damaging your harps.
You absolutely NEED to learn where all the notes are, with both bends as well as overblows because there's no inbetween note from 5 draw to 5 blow, so if you take the time to study the note layout chart as well as learn scales (part of learning basic music theory),, you won't be making that foolish mistake you're CONSTANTLY making.
With any stock harp, with PROPER BREATH CONTROL, you should be getting a MINIMUM of at least 1 year or more, and with better technique, 5 years, and with stainless steel reeds, a MINIMUM of 2 years+++, and if you're blowing harps out at a faster rate than that, you are CLEARLY GUILTY of playing with both too much breath force as well as bending past the floor of the bend. Both of those things are causing NEEDLESS stress on the reed metal and from that, you're causing microscopic cracks AKA stress fractures in the reed metal, and once this happens, the reed is TOAST. Doing both of those things, which is forcing things to happen is NOT a smart thing to do.
You need to also learn where you are on that instrument 24/7 and when you learn the scales, especially when played up against a paino, where you can visually see where the amount 1/2 steps are in between the notes, you won't be doing that again and far too many players are too lazy to learn it.
BTW, when you bend 5 draw down that hard, that note becomes about rougly 49 cents flat, which is WAAAAY out of tune. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
You know, in certain keys D5 will bend almost a half step. So, if an inexperienced player is just bending whatever notes he CAN bend, the tendency may be to unduly stress the 5D reed by bending it way too far.
It's been quite a while since i was using that approach, but if I recall correctly, i think you can get D5 on a D harp to drop just about a half step--which is not a good idea since it places way to much stress on that reed and is not very musical anyway.
And if your playing acoustically - a good rule of thumb is, only play the harp loud enough for someone to comfortably hear you from a few feet away. If folks need to hear you further away, either get a mic or have the people move as close as possible to you.
Playing a harmonica with any force to sound louder or to be heard is a recipe for premature harp failure.
Always use amplification if you need to be louder.
You can watch someone like Dennis Grueling or William Clarke and they look like they are playing the the harp so hard it's going to explode.
The dirty little secret is (which now a days ain't no secret at all)is...They are playing the harp very lightly. They are letting the Amplification do all the heavy lifting.
I was wondering what side of this Bob would weigh in on, lol.
My personal thoughts are you can play any way you want, because it's your money, etc. But keep in mind that Bob is otherwise right. It's also a good thing to look for patterns in how your reeds blow out, as you did. It will tell you exactly what you can do to correct the issue. I would think the too much force would be the primary culprit, I would think that if there was a serious problem in bending too far past the floor, we would see a blow reed or two mixed in there. But then again, just about everybody bends too hard.
"It might be an interesting exercise for the Blues Harp Forum members to look in their harp graveyard, and see if there is a pattern with blown reed problems (key, direction) in their particular situation. "
oh there is a pattern alright. key doesn't matter too much. the common failures in order of breakage goes like this: 5 Draw, then 4 Draw, next is 4 Blow, then 5 blow.
if you play whammer jammer a lot then 9 & 10 blow go.
OB/OD players are killing 6 blow and 7 draw followed by 6 draw and 7 blow w/ alarming frequency:) ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
@ MP - So what I am doing is common. Everyone who giving me advice, and I DO value greatly the advice, seems to be cured of the affliction. ut at least I'm not the only one. Thanks.
Just out of curiosity (and also to play devils advocate), how do we KNOW that bending "too far" is the culprit? How to we know that it isn't just too much breath pressure by itself? Or, for that matter, how do we know it isn't just the fact that the reeds that tend to break more often are the skinnier reeds from 4 draw up that we play a lot in the Blues idiom?
To whit: we draw A LOT on the 2 draw whole step bend, and, as hjvy correctly points out, most of us bend that sucker down all the way as far as we can go, whether it's actually on pitch or not. We also bend the 1 draw down as far as we can too. Most of us don't bend the 3 draw down all the way, but we do wail on it, and heavily too. Why don't these reeds break more frequently for us? I've NEVER broken any reeds below 4. In fact, the only reeds I (and I'd wager most people) have ever broken are actually 4 and 5 (blows and draws). In my mind, I think it is just that these are the fragile reeds that will go when playing a bit harder than we should. The only time I'd say that it is fairly certain that hitting a bent note caused the problem is when it's the BLOW reeds that goes (especially the blow 5, because most blues players don't play that note much in its own right). And even then, I still wonder if it's bending it "too far", or just playing the bent note with too much breath pressure that is the culprit... ---------- == I S A A C ==
OK, the mysteries shall be revealed... This might be one you cut and paste and keep somewhere.
The Elk River Institute for Harmonica Studies... in session!
Your first question: For the MOST part: Breath pressure by itself = draw reeds out Bending too hard = blow reeds out. Usually a little bit of both.
Reed Mechanics: I used to build longbows... not the laminated ones, but ones where you cut down a tree and make bows out of it. Bows are a good example of the forces present in a reed and if you build one, you can easily visualize these stresses and how they work. A longbow is a lot like a harmonica reed, both are springs, front side is under compression stress, other side under tension stress. There's a lot more stress on a longbow... and it's made of wood, so you have to learn a LOT about how stress works on springs to make a solid-wood bow. Both harmonica reeds and wood bows eventually blow out. If you build your bow well and take care of it, it will last for several years. If you don't, it could break the first time you shoot it.
Two main forces affecting a spring:
On the bow, tension stress is on the belly (side facing the target). If there is any imperfection on the belly of the bow, the wood will rip apart on the belly. The force of compression stress is incredible and is the stress on the back of the bow (the side that faces the archer). It will CRUSH wood if there is any imperfection that concentrates stress in one area. Both of these stresses are concentrated on the outsides of the bow or reed and are less inside, the deeper you go inside the less the stresses become until you reach the core where there is neither compression stress or tension stress. Make sense?
There is one significant difference between harmonica reeds and longbows. Both sides of the reed are under BOTH compression and tension stress. They take turns, back and forth, compression stress, then tension stress... on and on. and on.. as the reed vibrates. Take the milled side of a draw reed. When it goes inside the slot, the milled side is under tension stress. When it comes back out, the milled side is under compression stress.
OK, so you got how the stresses work, right?
Now, there is a such thing on a bow called a draw length. I am a big man, so my draw length is 31 inches. When I till the bow, I put some stress the bow (pulling a special long tilling string with which the bow is strung) and it bends. I look to see how it bends, if it bends too much someplace, I work that out. As I pull the tilling string back farther, new imperfections emerge, while it was bending OK before, when I put more pressure on it, new places will emerge where it bends too much or not enough. I keep pulling it back a couple of inches at a time, making adjustments by removing wood in appropriate places to make it bend right UNTIL I get it to my long draw length of 31 inches (most people's is 28). When finished, my bow is designed to be pulled back 31 inches. At 31 inches, I can shoot it for a couple years maybe more. If I shortened my draw length, it would last even longer.
The effect of the draw length on a bow is THE SAME AS PLAYING PRESSURE ON A HARMONICA REED. Blowing extra hard is the same as increasing the draw length on the bow. As you play harder, the reed (again, it's a spring) goes farther in and out. The farther it goes, the more the compression and tension stress are compounded. When you bend a draw reed, your bend embouchure causes the blow reed to get pushed out and become a draw reed. Make sense?
OK, so here's how a reed goes flat. Remember the part about the compression stress and tension stress being concentrated on the outsides of the reed? When the outside of a bow tears from tension stress, there's a chain reaction, the tension pulls apart to the center, the compression is increased on the other side and bam, the bow pulls apart. That's pretty much what happens when a reed goes, except that this plays out over time. First, there is a crack that develops on the OUTSIDE of the reed, usually on the milling mark groove where stress is most concentrated... bows, reeds whatever spring, always fail at the place where force is most concentrated. Now that we've got a crack in the outside, the focus of the tension and compression force moves farther in. Overtime, the crack deepens. The inside of this new crack, as far as the spring is concerned, is now the OUTSIDE of the reed. Basically, mechanically speaking, the reed has just gotten thinner. What happens when you thin a reed near the base? That's right, it gets flatter. This is why your reeds go flat as they go out.
Now for your "Skinniness" question. Seydel reeds are the same width across the board, yet the same ones go out. Skinniness has nothing to do with it. Stubbiness does. In bows, wide bows are more stable, but they also shoot a bit slower. But bows are a REALLY extreme kind of spring and that doesn't really carry over to harmonica reeds. The reason those middle reeds go out is simple... it's length pure and simple. I'll tell you a tale of two bows. Earl Vanosse, who apprenticed me some in bowmaking, and I made a bow at the same time, we both made the same design of bow, English longbow. Mine was freaking 74 inches long made out of black locust. His was 36 inches long and made out of osage orange. We were shooting at the traditional archery championships or something like that and his bow broke in a shower of splinters. Mine is still around. He made his bow that short because that was the best he could do with the short piece of wood he had. He was a better bowmaker than I. the difference? My bow was LONGER and that gave it more longevity as a spring. When a spring is longer, the force is distributed over a wider area.
Now, keep in mind that torsion stress is also on the reeds,e especially when you overblow or overdraw. Torsion stress is what causes the squeal in an overblow.
If you're not clear on the forces at work, check this out from MIT, and you can listen to The Immortal Jerry Reed Hubbard's Guitar Awesomeness:
Thanks Dave! Very interesting... I do know a little bit about stress tensors (from a structural geology course I took way back in undergrad), so what you are saying gels with my understanding... I suppose I fell into the trap of "wider vs. skinnier", and didn't really think of "longer vs. shorter"! But that makes total sense...
It raises another question, though. When you consider bending (and overbending), the opposing reed is functioning with the reverse wind direction that it is "supposed" to, and thus is operating as an "opening" reed, rather than a "closing" reed (to use Winslow Yerxa's terminology). So, it makes sense to me that if it is blowing or drawing to hard on the unbent note, the failure fracture should originate on the outside of the reed. If the culprit is blowing/drawing to hard on the bent note, then the fracture should originate on the inside of the reed.
So, my follow up questions would be:
1) Is it even possible to identify which side the failure crack originated from?
2) If one were to survey several broken blow reeds (let's say just 5 blow reeds) versus several broken draw reeds (again, let's just say 5 draw), would there be a consistent pattern of which side the fracture originated from, blow vs draw?
And, on a related, but slightly tangential note, I'm really quite curious about the degree that torsional vibration affects reed failure. I almost only ever overblow on the 6. Why don't I bust 6-blow reeds? (I don't think I ever have, and I've SQUEEEEEELED some OB's in my time!). I mean, it doesn't make sense to me. I really feel like I ought to have busted some 6 blow reeds by now!
I guess I'm pursuing this line of inquiry so much because I've been around for a decent number of years now, and I've heard dozens of opinions on why reeds fail, and what one can do to prevent it (or at least greatly reduce its frequency). I know that some of these techniques do work (I've significantly reduced the number of breakages in my harps), but, being the inquisitive scientist that I am, I really want to know why one or all of these techniques make a difference... I want to know this a) because I just really really really want to know it, and b) so that we can spend less time sorting through "solutions" that don't really work, and more time on learning the techniques that really will make a difference...
(and yes, Dave, that one definitely was "cut and paste" worthy! It's in the archives now!) ---------- == I S A A C ==
1) Is it even possible to identify which side the failure crack originated from?
1) Of course. First, if you can see it, and the reed's not broken off, it originated there. I don't think I made the point very clearly that the crack starts on the surface and goes in. It's always on the mill side. If we use "milled side" and "non-milled side" it would be easier to follow. The crack starts on the outside surface of the milled side and works it way to the core as well as to the side.
It's always going to be on the milled side, though, that's the weak point. The milled side is the weak side. The crack will always start there. 110% will be on the mill side. It will spread across the reed and in toward the core.
All these physics things you are talking about with opposing reed stuff and some should break on the other side, that's OK in theory. In reality, it doesn't matter. The milled side is so much a the weak link, it will always break there. I have replaced thousands of reeds. Never once have I seen a reed go other than in the way I described.
A stress fracture is something that plays out over three dimensions, width, depth and time.
I appreciate you explanation. The milling will always weaken that side. I have a scar on my chin from a bike crash caused by decorative milling on the crank arm that Puegeot thought looked cool.
Do you know if any manufacturer has ever tried drawing or coining the reeds down to the desired thickness? This would give a stronger reed, with a consistant finish from side to side. I expect the cost of tooling might prevent folks from trying it.
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2012 8:53 PM
Reeds aren't the same thickness from one end to the other. There's a curve of thickness, thickest at the rivet pad, then gets thinner as you go along the length, then gets a little thicker at the end. That's why milling has been the method of choice since 1878. It has to be really precise, slight changes in that thickness and how it varies makes a huge difference in reed performance.
Coining would be really expensive, if it would work.
Interesting. I am practicing, encouraged by jimi lee, to bend 1 draw down 50 cents below the half step bend. I trained myself to bend to pitch, but JL told me to strive to get it right down. It's a building block thing, about being able to go that far. Also, the dave Barrett song I have just been practicing makes deliberate use of the 5 draw bend in just one bar. More like a dip accent on the attack, but it's used5 times in that bar. Does this mean I am surely wrecking my brand new A harp? If so, maybe I'll practice this stuff on a cheaper harp ----------
I can envision a reed machine that works something like one of those ubiquitous souvenir penny smashers. Brass or phosphor bronze will have a higher yield than the copper or zinc of a penny but a reed is much smaller. Tolerance control would probably be the biggest challenge but I would think a good set of dies and controlled pressure would give better tolerances than CNC machining. In looking for some info on copper brass and bronze strengths I found this interesting link,
http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/alloys/homepage.shtml
There is a lot of info here but it would take some digging to find say, the best alloy for fatigue resistance. I wonder how much research Hohner or Suzuki do in this arena. Do they have engineering staff with budgets for experimenting? Has anyone toured their operations? I am quite curious as to how these things are designed. Is there room for improvment in durability without sacrificing sound?
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 12:13 AM
A lot of those problems tend to be from a combination of BOTH playing with too much breath force as well as bending past the floor of the bend, and when both are happening, which for many players is THE TRUTH about how they play, that's a recipe for disaster in no uncertain terms.
The most commonly blown out reeds tend to be 4 draw, 5 draw, 9 blow, 10 blow, and 4 blow (usually on harps key of D and higher). 3 draw I usually don't see very much at all.
4 blow tends to blow out frequently on many harps from key of D and higher because most all maufacturers tend to use short slot reeds on those harps and the stress level people put on that hole from both playing with too much breath force and combined with bending past the floor of the bend tends to get much higher.
On a couple of Manji's I've tried in D doesn't flat out as easily as most do (and the same can be said of the Seydel 1847) is that in the D's, they tend to use a long slot reed rather short slot reed, and it seems to take the stress better, but they can still get blown out from the combination of bending past the floor and too much force.
Many players tend to use more of a "one size fits all" mentality and that usually leads them astray, be it playing in different genres or different key harps, etc., and because of that, they often fail to make any and all of the proper adjustments necessary to accomplish anything the instrument and essentially it can be said that the way they tend to do things, they can't get out of their own way AKA self sabotage in a nutshell.
What I basically tell many players is to basically, in terms of breath force, play just loud enough that you don't eake up a baby sleeping in the next room and too much breath force is the equivalent of screaming at people all the time, and when you scream all the time, you will eventually do some serios damage to your vocal chords, and so it's basically ditto for the harmonica as well. It's a big reason why I put a s**tload of emphasis on learning breath control and I'd say that at least 50-80% of the average player, ESPECIALLY if they're teaching themselves how to play, tend to completely ignore this and they almost NEVER think that they're playing too hard.
50 cents flatter is 1/4 step flat and 100 cents flat is a 1/2 step flat. The reeds that can bend down the farthest are the ones with the greatest distance in terms of notes, meaning that, for example in hold 3 in a key of C harmonica, the highest reed in the hole is B and the lowest note is G, and so the first bend downward is Bb, then the 2nd is A, the 3rd bend is Ab, and finally the 3 blow is a G, the lowest note in the hole. In 5 draw on that same harp, the highest note is F, and since there is NO 1/2 step in between, the lowest note in the hole is E, which is the blow reed.
If players took the time to know where EVERY SINGLE NOTE on the ENTIRE instrument is, including both bends as well as overblows, you'd avoid making these mistakes all the time. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I agree that most players play way too hard. But I do NOT agree that playing real soft all the time is necessarily best. I think a certain level of breath force is essential to achieve decent tone. Personally, I find it's more important HOW you create the breath pressure than making sure it's soft all the time. But, YMMV.
There are two schools of thought on how hard to blow, Adam said blow the guts out the harp, but I have had lessons from old harp guys that say you don't need to blow hard at all. To comment on blowing out harps I'm a novice, been playing for over a year and I practice about 10 hours a week and I'm blowing out sp20's and mb's left and right, just blew out a 6 hole draw on a mb yesterday.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 8:39 AM
Rotating harps can be helpful when trying to prolong the inevitable disappointment of reed failure...In other words have "optimally" 5 "D" harps to rotate, so the abuse of a certain reed is spread out over a the span of the gig, practice session etc...
If one is using the same harmonica everyday for hours of playing while using a certain reed a lot to get their message across, then it is paramount that (mindful finesse) is used for that "constantly used reed" to escape the ravages of premature failure!
If your newer to playing harmonica - and in the stages of ruining reeds consistently...You will be wise to learn how to replace those reeds, unless you have money to burn!
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 8:57 AM
Me, i've never had the luxury of playing soft. Whatever I've played, be it blues, bluegrass, country or old country blues, I've always played acoustic (which is why I know nothing about amps and pedals and whatnot). But I don't play hard. Just enough force to get the job done. You obviously don't want to play too hard all the time, because when you build to the tension moments, if you're full bore 100%, you've nothing to increase to. You can make yourself louder without blowing harder. Sound energy is powerful, give it resonance inside. If you relax your cheeks, the sound energy will push them out to natural resonance. Try it. If you don't believe it, take a low harp, like a D chromatic or something, relax yourselk, blow into the 1 blow, then move up. Put a finger from your free hand on your neck and move it to where you feel vibration. You will feel that resonance vibrating in your neck and generally the lower the note is, the deeper in your neck you'll feel that vibration.
Use your hands well. I spent a lot of time studying how Jason uses his hands. Check out this video below and watch what he does with his hands, he uses them not only to alter tone, but to project volume dynamics as well.
Here's one of me. I'm using my hands like a megaphone to project volume to the audience, in this case, a camera. You don't really have to watch the video to see it - my hands don't move much - you can see it in the still. In this case, I was using a Low C and to hang with Roger's booming guitar, I used my hands to get some extra volume.
I must be a rare breed I blew out the 2 hole draw rees on an a golden melody 2 or 3 times in rapid succession when I first gOt into harmonica.
I am not one to offer any pointers on it but lately I have been working much more on dynamic volume of play and it is amazing how little force is required to still play quite loud.
My challenge is to never use the volume control as a volume knob on a mic. So I am spending much more time practicing soft playing and varying levels of it.
Once again, some Payne common sense comes down to rule the day! Those pesky mill marks! Of course... Just when I thought I was on to something! Ah, well!
I still am not convinced that bending "too far" has anything to do with reed breakage. It seems to me that blowing or drawing too hard has to be the main culprit. Just like Dave says: it "draws the bow" farther, and thus provides way more tension/compression stress on the reed than does playing at a normal volume. I just don't see how bending "too far" can do the same thing, since the tone that sounds when you bend is simply just the ratio of how much each reed is vibrating in relation to eachother, and NOT how much they are vibrating overall. Now, playing that bent note very loudly-- now THAT I can see leading to reed failure... ---------- == I S A A C ==
I CAN see, however, how trying to bend PAST the floor of the bend could essentially equate to playing really hard (i.e., you are trying to force it). But only if you are really trying to play PAST the floor of the bend... Playing, with normal breath force, right down TO the floor of the bend, and NO MORE than that, well, I don't see how that could be damaging at all. ---------- == I S A A C ==
Your results coincide with what I saw in my pile of broken Lee Oskar reed plates that I have fixed or replaced for folks. The 4 and 5 draws win the prize. Overstressed and broken. There are some great suggestions here, so kudos for starting the new thread.
alone? hardly. people who don't break reeds are the exception. over the decades i've broken hundreds. i don't break them any more. i still play hard. i think it has to do with control rather than force... and what David said.
hey hvyj,
your 3 going flat doesn't make it a bad reed. unless it won't hold its' pitch anymore. since you are seriously into position playing, you absolutely need every 1/2 step on that buggin 3- so its' work load is increased.
"must be a rare breed I blew out the 2 hole draw rees on an a golden melody 2 or 3 times in rapid succession when I first gOt into harmonica."
you certainly are rare Will, but that's cool. sure you can break the 2 and the 3 for that matter. it's not as popular as the 5.
PS i seriously defer to Dave Payne as to the mechanics of it all because.. he learned a lot from the under-rated Rupert Oysler he was on the ill fated Harrison team(man you gotta be good) i got my main tools and ideas from him. he has been a fount of information. AND he is a cool guy cuz he makes his own beer. ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 11:59 AM
Isaac, if you've got a strobe light, you can see for yourself. Take the covers off the harp, turn out the light, stand in front of a mirror and watch the reed under a strobe light. That's how you figure out what a reed actually does in certain situations.
Different techniques wear reeds out differently. A guy sent me three to Steelify, all three had three blow reeds out. I can't remember the last time I've seen three blows go out. Been a while.
reeds can be really weird. i had a new MBD where the 2 draw bends went down a step and a half (like the three draw bends.- but, it ignored the first half step completely! i certainly didn't want the extra half step it forced on me. it wasn't a matter of pilot error. i just pulled that sucker.
---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Developing good breath control is so ESSENTIAL because if you've developed it, you can vary yoour use of force that AVOIDS damaging your harps like crazy. Most of the greats I've met over the years, especially Big Walter Horton, largely played MUCH softer than the way the average player plays, but on occasion, some notes got played a bit harder than others, but not even REMEOTELY CLOSE to as hard as the average player tends to play.
Elkriverharmnonicas is basically telling you the exact same thing I tell players "play just loud enough that you don't wake up a baby csleeping in the next room," but just worded differently. Most people who play too hard nearly ALWAYS have the crappiest tone, intonation and articulation of all their notes, be it unbent, bent, or overblows that sounds totally freaking GOD AWFUL (and that's being POLITE about it), and their sound often projects VERY POORLY and that's besides just flat out ruining harps at a very rapid rate.
Earlier in this thread, Hvyj made a point about making sure that his breath for both blow and draw reeds are very even, and that's a very good point to bring out because the average player, ESPECIALLY if they're teaching themselves how to play, there is frequently a HUGE difference in the breath force of their blow and draw breaths and it's not uncommon for players to have that problem and author of the instructional book "Jazz Harp," Richard Hunter (who is an old friend of mine), has made mention of this as well in his book, and the most frequent problem is having draw breath being WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the blow breath (the reverse happens with 9 & 10 blow when players teach themselves how to bend the upper register of their harmonicas), and not only do the reeds get heaviily stressed out, but they also become frequently winded and if their are phrases where very rapid alternating of blow/draw breath happens (like on Charlie McCoy's uptempo version of The Orange Blossom Special), they're dead as a doornail after 1 go around because the momentum of the breath force makes it impossible to properly make the transition at all, let alone smoothly. \ Elriverharmonicas also brings up a good point about making good use of their hands, and the average player uses their hands mainly just to hold it and an occasional wah-wah, and often think you can't use it amplfied, which I know for a fact, is NOT true at all. Tho a bit more limited, use of hands can surprise the hell out of you when playing amplified and will help get you a much wider variety of available tonal colors without the need of effects pedals.
One of the biggest reasons why I recommend that EVERY harp player go to a vocal coach, not just for learning how to sing, but to also learn proper breathing and relaxation technique as well because the average player play so physically uptight and so they're forcing everything to happen and rather than opening up their air passages, they're actually doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of that. The very first things any reputable vocal checks for before a single lesson starts is how you breathe and relax, as they both go hand in hand with vocals, but the VERY SAME THING also applies to playing harmonica as well, and by learning these techniques, you will learn how not only to not get winded, but make more efficent use of your breath and properly project your sound even with pretty good volume without straining or forcing and these are easily applied to harmonica and will improve your overall tone pretty dramatically and I've never regretted going to a vocal coach just for the breathing/relaxation exercises alone. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
