I've noted a lot of bandwagon jumping on certain artists and ideas here lately. For example, perception of John Popper's playing and general comments on players playing with/without soul. It always intrigues me how modern players - especially those who play fast - are perceived at MBH.
I found this article interesting. I've always held a strong belief that the opinions formed about an artist and their role as a musician by their peers often has LITTLE to do with the actual music they make (or don't make) and more about reputation. We try to talk like that isn't the case, but then end up making totally contradictory claims about different harmonica players.
Reputation is part of it. That is just how our society works.
Music, movie,TV critics are just one opinion but they do carry weight with a good percentage of the population. Many people develop trust in the critics.
It is obvious Popper means a great deal to you so you make your stand. Understandibly so.
Going back thru the other thread it is evident that a lot of folks on this forum do not share your opinion. Sure, there is always something to be learned from an advanced player, but many choose not to go to the Popper school. Plenty of other greats that are more to their liking.
Not being a Popper fan does not lessen the value of anyones opinions on music or harmonica.
This post has nothing to do with Popper specifically. If it had, I would have posted it there. In fact, other than suggesting that people make an informed decision on his playing rather than just assume they are familiar with his harmonica work, I didn't criticize anyone's opinion or even spend much time defending my own.
I only referenced that example as that thread was still on the first page. I could have just as easily said Junior Wells, Sugar Blue, Howard Levy, or anyone else that has been brought up for discussion recently regarding their musical value - real and/or perceived. In fact, what spurned the itch to share the article now was discussion of Sugar Blue.
The OP is in no way meant to be read as a defense of anybody, nor reflective of any one particular thread.
I am just pointing to the role of perception, bias, and other non-musical factors in how we discuss harmonica topics. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
It may also be a matter of what portion of someone's catalog people know. I've heard variations of this argument numerous times-
Non-Fan- "I don't really like artist X."
Fan- "Are you kidding, they are amazing!"
Non-Fan- "I don't know. That song they do is just sort of annoying."
Fan- "Well, you can't judge them by that one song that got radio play that is the only song anyone knows. Here, listen to this..."
The problem is, people judge whether they buy an album based on what they've heard so far. They hear the popular songs that may be more pop-y than the rest. I like Popper, but not enough to buy his album (but my album budget is always very tight... back in the days when I had a Columbia House membership he might well have made the cut. Actually, with me, it's not his harp playing that knocks him out of my to buy list, but his voice. He sounds too much like an auctioneer trying to sell you something. Of course, that's based on the one song that got all the air play that everybody knows. :)
In the Howard Levy thread, I came down as someone who admires Howard a lot, but really wasn't that into his music. When I'm offering critique of something, I always try to make sure I separate out the break down of the technical execution, which is a matter of fact, from my response to it, which is a matter of taste.
I am trying to sorta beat around the bush, but, in the hopes of shifting this from a Popper discussion, let's talk about playing with soul as it pertains to persuasion.
Playing with soul is brought up all the time - people speak of it like they can readily measure the amount of soul someone plays with. It is something that is concrete and objective.
I've read comments about Carlos del Junco and how soulful his approach is...same with Sugar Blue, Howard Levy, etc. They are labeled as either soulful and not soulful (especially when considering performance context and arranged vs not arranged). I just don't get how someone can label it if they are not the player themself.
It is a poor word choice, IMO.
The same thing when talking about vocabulary. IMO, any one artist pretty much plays the same few things over and over in different context to create solos. Yet, we choose to only aknowledge that with artists we don't like and ignore with those we do like.
IMO, we tend to ignore a lot of musical facts and replace them with biases formed from things NOT related to the actual performance.
A good example of this would be how freely we board members criticize gigging professionals who aren't posters here yet praise (or never speak negatively) our MBH peers on the board. (That vid of so-and-so playing infront of a thousand people who are eating out of his hand leaves me cold, but that webcam-backing track video moves me to tears).
I am not even going so far as to say this is good or bad, I just wonder how many people pause to think of it. I only really started pondering this when I realized the bias I brought when listening to harmonica music. Some people get a free pass from me when they shouldn't.
I think there's weight in the argument, people are opinionated and by and large lazy. Easier to hijack a 2nd hand opinion than to take the time to formulate your own. We all all do it... I do it... I would be suspicious of anyone who claims otherwise.
You can pass an English Lit exam by reading the Cliff's notes and not opening the original book.
Often I'm left wondering whether an author has actually read every single source that he/she cites.
I've said it before on here - although not in the recent thread - I strongly suspect most people's opinions of Howard Levy's playing is based on their presumptions. They've heard he has a reputation as a cerebral jazz player, they perhaps have heard some short snippet of his more experimental output and extrapolated an opinion of all his playing based on that.
Popper might fall in to that category too - dare I say even Alanis might?
Ian Brown doesn't - he's just shit.
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2012 10:20 AM
I feel your pain HarpNinja. It is a turnoff to me as well as some other guys I know who don't post here very much.
It seems pretty safe to say that we're (the majority on MBH forum, myself NOT included) mostly comprised of modern traditionalist blues harmonica listeners that mostly want to hear harmonica players who sound like someone in Adam's top 20 "All-Time Blues Harp Greats". I do think there's a bunch of people on this forum as well that enjoy hearing harmonica in other genres & styles as well, just not as many. It's unfortunate but as a blues harmonica forum that is the main scope. It seems any harmonica player not playing in the style of one of the guys in Adam's top 20 is off topic.
Very well said Mike. And it kinda strikes home for me. I've always been somewhat disappointed in myself when it comes to my solos, mainly for the very reason you described. It all sounds the same, and I can never seem to deviate from it because it's like my "safe place". ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2012 10:35 AM
i know im a new guy and this is gonna make some people mad but its the proverbial truth as i see it. the 90s never shoulda happened. anyone playing that stupid heroin music from 20 years ago needs to go life shopping and find new idols. theres two forms of american music: blues and shit. all the good blues songs have already been written you have nothing to contribute to the genre. i like british blues but i cant stand eric clapton if a band member so much as mentions his name they are fired to be continued.
I think Chris Michalek was a MASTER at intentionally creating a reputation and persona that was larger than his actual music contributions, for another example.
Again, I am not passing opinion on that, but it is a clear example of substance/hype as it relates to letting personal bias shape the reputation of an artist.
People either loved or hated Chris whether they had actually spoken with him or not. They loved and hated him whether they had listened to him play harmonica or not. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
I know more non-harmonica players who are fans & frequent listeners of Stevie Wonder, Blues Traveler, Toots Thielemans, & Howard Levy and very few non-harmonica players who listen to Little Walter, Sonny Terry, or Jimmy Reed. I love all of them!
I agree with Ryan and Bobo. Even though he could be considered overrated by some, and I myself kinda take him with a grain of salt a good deal of the time, there's no getting around the fact that Clapton is a major benefactor to blues.
After skimming through the article, it seemed to prove that if people listened to favorable reviews of a song, they would rate the same song more favorable. I would have liked the test better, if it had also done the same with UNFAVORABLE reviews, then asked the people to rate the songs.
I want to see someone prove or disprove that ANY "press" is better than no "press". ---------- HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012 theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
ok back i had a whiney prima donna guitarist over here. yes this is exactly how i feel. im not trolling this is all from the heart. and you may as well get to know me. wherever you go in the world whatever utopia you seek, youre gonna find something you dont like. sonny boy the real one not that the first guy was right. "them european white boys want to play blues real bad, and thats how they play it REAL BAD!" i jam in europe but its really frustrating theyre classically trained they hold the guitar high all thats missing is the spanish footstool. they cant slide no warble its all doot doot doot like steppenwolf really horrible. they dont know what open tuning is. bunch of no soul jacksons. carlos santana plays blues better than eric clapton and hes not blues not latin not rock and not good. blues is american music and you have to be an american to play it. now british blues i like but its not really blues i consider it proto punk. i cant stand the real sonny boy with the yardbirds and animals but his solo stuff where they all shut up is ok. now strangely i like the real sonny boy with jimmy page despite its considered an abortion by most. no rehersal its like hearing the real sonny boy at an open mic jam with players hes never met before. i dont know if its blood but african and turkish style music is all i can play im a rotten musician i dont want to study read music etc. i dont want to improve once you know how to ride a bike youre not going to get much better at it. if you really have the urge to learn all of motzarts peices on toy instruments like harmonica kazoo and jews harp then you really need to go life shopping or take viagra and try to get lucky more before your short life comes to an end. i dont hate john popper im glad hes sucessful, but for me theres better old dead black guys with talent to listen to. hate me if you want i dont hate anyone its too much work. and i hope the zombie of robert johnson never catches up to clapton i wish him all the success. i just prefer him in the yardbirds. thats me im sorry if i put an ad to get a band together it may go something like this: no originals, no girl singers, no songs post 1963, no white artists songs, no keyboards, no songs by anyone still alive.
I'm sure there's a nugget of wisdom in there somewhere...............somewhere.
edit: i found it!!!! well, maybe not wisdom, but the imaginary band ad was hilarious.
2nd edit: i'm nominating billy's post for post of the year, in one post he flamed:
european white boys classical training spanish footstools steppenwolf carlos santana non-americans studying reading music improving harmonicas, kazoos and jews harps clapton (twice) female singers post-1963 songs white artists living songwriters and...most inexplicably...keyboards
Now THAT is a HOF rant. Minor league whiners take notice..there's a new sheriff in town.
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2012 12:29 PM
yeah please dont take offence bobo and id like to hear your stuff. ive caught a few talents in here i really like deak harp i dont think he will be writing songs for anyone or getting signed to capitol records but i like his playing. and i like hobo he shouldnt beat himself up so much i think theres real talent there. but in a day and age of a live blues band being one guitarist a keyboard player and a drum machine, we as hardcore blues snobs have to put out foot down and just say no. if someone likes harp played through a robot voice processor and wants to call it blues evolution fine this process of trying to evolve blues has failed in the 70s when even muddy waters had that funky feelin pftttt. reggae is cruise ship music and you know damn well when you see a neighborhood bar with a sign that says live blues band youre gonna be in for a big dissappointment.
awe cmon that was a fun rant, and some thought it was funny. as for flaming i wasnt trying to do that.
european white boys (european black boys cant speak ebonics and i give ebonics lessons to grateful black ghetto boys in holland who wish to be rappers)
classical training spanish footstools (hey im a folkie i prefer folk and tribal music i dont like iranian and indian classical music i like the self taught dope smokin crazu sufis)
steppenwolf carlos santana non-americans (no im just saying that being american alone gives you an edge at blues. i play fake arabian riffs but sooner or later im gonna throw something blues in there because its not really my back yard.
harmonicas, kazoos and jews harps (i love and play all 3 i just consider them toys i am a child at heart)
female singers ( i like them i just dont want to be in a group with them)
I love the 90's grunge stuff, but a lot of Clapton leaves me cold. Not all of it, but enough that I don't ever go out of my way to listen to him.
When I'm thinking of what I consider soulful I think I'm more impressed with the mood someone can create if you only allow him to play one note than what you can create with a bunch of notes. Cotton's slow blues is a good example. It sounds like for the moment that he is playing a note that note is the most important note in the whole history of music. Then he does the same thing to the next note. And the next. John Popper is more about the run of notes. It's the difference between listening the Slash playing a guitar solo or a death metal band playing a ton of notes. I don't mean that to directly compare what Popper does with death metal harmonica, just to say that most of his playing in any given song isn't going to be about minimalism.
I think minimalism serves 'soulful' better, although there are exceptions. I guess maybe it depends too on how you define soulful. I think of it as transferring the emotion you are feeling to the audience. I'd exclude, for the most part 'happy' feelings. I'd give them a separate category, 'joyful'. I'd say Popper sounds more joyful and excited.
There are probably other categories. I like watching VSauce on YouTube. It's a series with interesting factoids. The last one I watched talked about black holes and how you would perceive the event horizon. I really enjoyed it. It wasn't soulful or joyful. It was stirring the parts of my brain that enjoy exploring mystery. Howard Levy's music might light up the same parts of my brain. There are probably other ways you could classify how we interpret music. It would be neat to see some MRI images of people listening to different types of music. Maybe we could settle this once and for all.
As to the question of why comments about a brilliant pro with the audience in the palm of his hand my be harsher than comments about someone posting a video with there camera phone, there are a several reasons for that.
The first, and most obvious, is we are grading on a curve. We are measuring people by where they say they are on the learning curve and giving them feedback that's useful to them at that level. I don't have any advice for Howard Levy about how to play. Stylistically, he may not be playing my favorite form of music, but lot's of people love what he is doing. No one can be all things to everyone; people's tastes are just too different. I get the feeling if he was here he'd probably agree with that. He also has enough exposure so that you can compare him to other people and they will get the reference. If I compare my band to The Midnight Society (a great local band in my area) no one will know what I'm talking about, so we compare Popper to Howard to Levy, instead of Smith (me) to Desario (TMS's guitar/harp player).
Also, a guy who has a huge crowd eating out of his hand has probably already managed to figure out how to get the right people into the seats. People liked the music and came to see it. People who didn't like it stayed home. It can be disastrous when you have a crowd that isn't there to see you. When I was a kid I saw Escape Club open for Mike and the Mechanics. It was one of the worst mismatches of acts I've ever seen. The guy from Escape Club actually let out a few profanities at the audience before he left the stage.
So, back to how we make comments about members... members post there stuff to get constructive criticism not a write up Arts & Leisure column. Threads without a big name in the header may get fewer hits. That may mean that people have already heard the person and are now selecting threads they want to listen to. It's like asking people who bought tickets for Blues Traveler what they think of Blues Traveler. :)
You also may get contextual clues from what the OP said. If they tell you before the video that they know the sound quality is bad and they are already saving up for a better recording rig it doesn't help to make comments about the lousy sound quality. If they say they know they fell of the beat at 4:20 or that they specifically want to know about the solo, then you try to confine your comments to the solo (unless you want to to praise some other brilliant part that just needs to be praised!)
When you are listening to a pro's professionally recorded songs, you are going to be a lot less forgiving. A song that's made it to the 'for sale' stage should pretty much be at the point of 'this is my music, hear me roar.' Of course, that's not the same as a pro asking for advice on a harp forum or giving a sneak peak of something that's in the early stages. Then they are just like the rest of us.
At lastly, it's probably easier to forget that a pro (except the ones we specifically know hang out here) might read the comments. We all, somewhere deep down in our psyche, have a snarky child. I try to put him to bed before I log on to MBH, but I keep such strange hours sometimes he's the one at the controls when I'm typing. For the same reasons it's easier to make fun of someone from the North Pole (nice red suit you jacka$$!) it's easier to be harsh with someone you've never talked to.
P.S.- Honkin, I know it's not technically in the same post, but I think you really should include Billy's warm up rant about 90's heroine rock. I know there have been a couple threads and a large clump of forumites are grungies (myself included.) That's some good ranting. He defined everything as his opinion or tastes, kept it all pretty much on the musical topic and wrapped it all up with live and let live. If Denis Leary was a harmonica player he might well have come up with something similar.
+1 on the no chicks in the band rule. Somebody always ends up sleeping with her, or she comes as a package deal. That dynamic isn't worth the headache.
Interesting thread, though. It's not just the perception of music that can be swayed. One must consider that there is a large beginner/intermediate contingent on boards such as these. In a sea of available information on gear, technique, music, style, etc. and without (yet) the years of study, but having a desire to contribute to discussions, then it sort of makes sense how opinions can have different apparent "sway". Like so much sports talk radio, the interaction is probably as or more important than the content, to many. We can all agree that all art is subjective and end discussions, or we can keep BSing because it's fun. ---------- 12gagedan's YouTube Channel
no female guitarist, drums bass no problem . what i mean is you show up for practice and the guitar player its always him who turns to you first, says: oh hey billy this is denise our new lead singer the very next day you get fired. and its your band that you placed ads for you organized etc. nothing like getting kicked out of your own band.
I've seen the husband-who-can't-play-a-lick-but-is-in-the-band-to-keep-an-eye-on-his-wife situation. Female bass player: that worked once. ---------- 12gagedan's YouTube Channel
"The present study examined whether music critics can influence listeners’ opinions of music or whether these critics simply reflect listeners’ opinions of music"
Are you kidding?
A handful of people get to decide who becomes famous and who's music we hear. We do not own our culture, the networks and the record label producers do. I am talking about maybe two dozen people who decide what we listen to or watch every day.
This study has no bearing on reality. Considering the big picture, if we only get to hear a small fraction of the good music that is being made, if we only want to talk about what we are being force-fed, is it relevant if some critic can make us gravitate towards one signed artist over another?
Now We're havin the big fun. Not sure where it's goin or been - but a good ride. -- LOVE your rant B_Shines - rant on! Now that we're piling on, I'm in the Clapton's way over rated camp myself - but we do digress.
Didn't read the article, sorry - but in regards to media pundits,' music critics and the like - I actually don't believe thier opinions affects most of us here - who appreciate blues from numerous era's that has nothing do to with what critics think.
Things that do matter, to different degrees for different people- are technical abillity, - and yes - soul. Soul being an all encompassing shorthand for a musician who's voice touches us emotionally, spiritually, even sexually. Technical prowess is always to be respected - but if the wielder of that prowess has nothing to say that speaks to us, - they are never going to be cherished, or loved- or be 'persuasive'.
That is always going to be a subjective thing. Rice Miller can just breath on the harp - and the sound will 'get me'. It's his 'voice' coming through the instrument - and it moves me. John Popper's - not so much. Jerery Garcia can just touch a string and the same thing happen's - I'm 'his'. Clapton 'pretty nice' - but it only goes so far. Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy - 'do it' for me - Charlie Parker - sorry, no.
I do agree that we all have degrees of prejudice however, - positive and negative - that affects how open we are to a given musician. Just like the topic 'not to be discussed' - faith plays a part too. When you really believe in an artist and thier ability to move you - you let yourself get carried away - and bingo - they 'persuade you, - move you, once again. ----------
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2012 9:52 PM
i was a big supporter of college radio. got to hear artists nobody heard of they had a friday blues rock show a sunday blues show. rest of the week alternative thrash etc and local artists. then about 94 alternative became mainstream and it was no longer an ALTERNATIVE choice but something shoved down your throat everywhere you went with 10 year old kids asking you "do you like blues travler and nirvana?" pftttt thats when i gave up radio. and this truth my make you mad but punk is as american as apple pie and started late 60s early 70s in new york. and its not kids in california playing whiney pop songs singing with fake english accents. thank god i gave up radio wont even listen to it when i drive. oh and get this our oldies station has never played bo diddley not once not ever all they play is the beachboys since the 70s never bo once not even after he died god i hate program directors who completely wipe people out of history because they dont like it.
We are now talking about Postmodern Blues Harmonica...
"Postmodernism (taken from wiki) holds realities to be plural and relative, and to be dependent on who the interested parties are and the nature of these interests. It claims that there is no absolute truth and that the way people perceive the world is subjective."
We all have different subjective reactions to art/music, and some artistic expressions will move us more than it might move other persons. While we can evaluate technical skills of execution of the art, the art/music that moves us is dependent upon our individual life experiences and reactions, our individual "natures".
To the extent that we share our tastes with peers, we may agree on what moves us and what doesn't. This may be in part influenced by shared life experiences and time frames at which we were exposed to the music/art. So we end up with factions supporting certain styles, and disdaining other styles.
Sometimes we may follow an artist or style that evolves and changes, and come to like the new direction the art/music takes. Our taste may change or not: Dylan, The Beatles, Miles Davis, Elvis, etc. evolved in style. We may dislike the changes in the art/music and our taste may stay with that original style that fits our preferences and is familiar. We may abandon a formerly favored artist.
Art appreciation is the personal subjective experience of a work. It is the interaction of each individual with the art. You cannot capture what moves you and measure it to an absolute standard.
You might be able to identify the qualities present in what moves you about certain kinds of art/music, and then rate different music on a multivalued scale that indicates to what extent the new work meets your criteria.
But it would be a lot more fun to just listen to music and play music than to try to measure music.
I respect an opinion that says,"That piece of music/art just doesn't move me." It is a statement of personal taste. I don't like evaluations that infer an absolute mystical standard like "it doesn't have soul." [Except maybe for when we are talking about Pat Boone. :>) ]
@ Billy I also like Deak's playing a lot, but I play very differently than he does. Sometimes I play very fast. People who don't know better have sometimes compared my playing with Popper (which is ridiculous, and reflects only that sometimes I play fast). I take it as a compliment, even though in no way am I setting out to copy Popper's style.
I respect Sugar Blue's, John Popper's, Jason Ricci's, and Howard Levy"s playing very very much, and I like some of their works. I am in awe of their talents. But I can only listen to so much of what they do before I want to hear something stated that is more basic, and moves me differently, and more fundamentally. It is different than an appreciation of their technical display of skill and talent. I believe that they all have the technical capability of playing that more basic style that moves me, but that emotionally they are not in that place. They have moved on to other things in order to fulfill their artistic desires. Similarly, some of John Coltrane's music doesn't move me, though some people proclaim the genius of all his works.
There is no accounting for taste... It is a diverse world, with plenty of room for all kinds of music and art.
PS In my opinion, the danger inherent in Postmodernism is that since in that framework all things are relative and there is no objective truth, people intentionally create their own truths, and stop trying to approximate a common objective truth.
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world"
Before the Internet gave us the ability to sample songs from a multitude of artists,critics were my only guide to what good music was out there. My "bible" was "The Rolling Stone Record Guide". I tried to buy all the records that earned 5 stars. I soon learned there were critics that were in line with my tastes and some that were 180 degrees away from me. I started to ignore the critics that didn't line up with my tastes. In the Internet age,you have to take everything with a grain of salt. Anybody can say anything,whether they know anything or not. The media certainly controls what we hear and what we should like. I think we're down to just 3 major record labels. Critics do influence what we listen to.
Re: Clapton I hated his stuff during his heroin period. I want to puke when they play "Wonderful Tonight" or anything from that period. I like it when he goes back to his roots. He is a great guitarist.
I hate to bring Popper up again,but I read comments about him relying on the same certain patterns. I think if you listen to most of Adam's top 20,you'll find that they also rely on certain patterns/riffs that they always fall back on. They all do it to some extent,it's just depends on what you like.
"Also, a guy who has a huge crowd eating out of his hand has probably already managed to figure out how to get the right people into the seats. People liked the music and came to see it. People who didn't like it stayed home. It can be disastrous when you have a crowd that isn't there to see you. When I was a kid I saw Escape Club open for Mike and the Mechanics. It was one of the worst mismatches of acts I've ever seen. The guy from Escape Club actually let out a few profanities at the audience before he left the stage."
Picking the right venue for what you do is critical. I have learned this the hard way, like by doing thousands of gigs in the wrong places. It kept my calendar full but eventually I figured it out after many nights of being so depressed I was ready to walk off a cliff.
the music business definetly decides for the masses what will sell and what won't. If today Eric Clapton made a statement in Rolling Stone that Walter Tore was the greatest thing to come along since Robert Johnson, my calendar would be so full I wouldn't even have time to write a note here. Conversely, piss off established music critics and you can kiss your career goodbye. Why? The music agents won't touch you so you get no gigs where people will pay money to see you, the labels will not sign you, the media won't write about you. You will be delegated to playing backround music in places for tips to people that came there to eat.
People may argue that youtube and personal websites, facebook, etc, sidestep all this stuff and anyone can now make it. Sure anyone can publish a song,video for the world to see, but that is as far as it goes. Look at Cristle, she has over a million views and not a gig. What we play, for most all musicians, is dictated by a legacy of what has sold, what is deemed musically correct. Think about detuning a guitar to radom sounds and try making music on it. Most all would try to make sounds that are found on a normally tuned guitar vs. letting new sounds come out from the dischord/wrong tuning. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
wow, this has turned almost novelistic! i am not really sure what the point is exactly. we have a forum here and we put our opinions and experiences out there, looking for kindred spirits, support, answers to questions, maybe some sense of direction about who to listen to or emulate, and we take others' experience and opinions in stride and use them if they suit us. and vice versa, i put something out there just in the hope of maybe helping a fellow guy or gal move one notch up the scale.
before i heard the guys who would become my heroes, i had very little idea what i wanted out of a harmonica. i had an amorphous feeling of what i wanted to communicate and very little chance of getting there from where i was, without a lot of input. when i was small a relative turned me on to harmonica. a bit later i heard the real greats on late night "race radio" shows. then the brit invasion. the resurgence in the 70's of blues by authentic bluesmen and women.
all that took me only so far. the 90's brought the internet into my home and blues forums. friends locally brought some very impressive artists to my cd player and we saw some heavy hitters around dallas as well.
all of this has helped me form into the musical person i am. it has all allowed me to form an opinion about my likes and dislikes. at the end of the day most of what i do i do it because it pleases me and pleases some others as well. in short it's my personal likes and dislikes which drive my progress or lack of. that is partly basxed on others' reaction to what i do but mostly on what i want to do. if you can't find happiness in what you do, then what are you going to communicate? ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
nah walter umma drop out of this thread. my fault all my fault. i shoulda mastered other instruments or dropped dead from drinking 20 years ago. its always gonna be the same bands that fall apart because the drummer and bass player found crack amazing. a guitarist who is always in search of a female vocalist who only does 2 songs a set. it will always be british blues played to a 90% male audience and never the real deal. not even gonna get into the famous and semi famous people ive played with or how many years ive played. my fault shoulda wore a beret and a suit like a blues douche a long time ago, no one to blame but me. and old dead blues guys arent modern im off topic i appologise. really sucks we live in a day when a big band is really a guitar player and a click track who cant make enough to starve on let alone pay for gas.
@dougharps:"In my opinion, the danger inherent in Postmodernism is that since in that framework all things are relative and there is no objective truth, people intentionally create their own truths, and stop trying to approximate a common objective truth."
Hmmm...what you characterize as a danger, i would refer to as a challenge.
@RyamMortons: "i know...very few non-harmonica players who listen to Little Walter, Sonny Terry, or Jimmy Reed."
The biggest Little Walter fan i know is a jazz guitar player with a Masters in Music. He listens to LW all the time. I've been around quite a few non harmonica playing musicians who are big fans of Jimmy Reed, and listen to his stuff quite a bit.
Just for grins, here's Sugar Blue's postmodern interpretation of a Howlin' Wolf (minor key) tune:
And here's John Coltrane playing just playing the blues (in a minor key):
This material speaks to me and moves me at a fundamental level. I can relate to it, I like listening to it and i like playing it on harmonica. But maybe that's just because i find certain minor key stuff appealing.
@hvyj Danger? Challenge? Sure... no contradiction.
"Danger" passed through my mind as I thought of the wider societal implications beyond music/art taste.
If a society's information sources don't even attempt to find some approximation of "truth" (even if finding actual Postmodern "truth" is unattainable), then people will choose from widely disparate views of reality, and any agreement and compromise necessary for the society to function will become almost impossible.
But what might be seen as a "danger" certainly can be constructively viewed as a "challenge."
By the way, I liked both of your posted videos.
The Sugar Blue interpretation of "Who's Been Talking" was interesting, and very jazzy.
Coltrane did some great work, and I like some of it. I just couldn't follow him into free jazz. Maybe my limitation, but certainly a matter of taste.
I'd never heard the amphetamine story either. I read sections of a Coltrane biography for a research paper I did one time. The author, Lewis Porter, suggested that it wasn't liver cancer that he died from, but hepatitis. He went on to remark that he probably contracted it from his use of heroin. Just glanced at Wikipedia; Porter's claims have met with controversy, but Coltrane's son Ravi has endorsed the biography.
@hvyj "The biggest Little Walter fan i know is a jazz guitar player with a Masters in Music. He listens to LW all the time. I've been around quite a few non harmonica playing musicians who are big fans of Jimmy Reed, and listen to his stuff quite a bit."
You're right, I think I illustrated the point I was trying to make incorrectly. I was trying to suggest that the non blues playing harmonica players should be held in just as positive light, I wasn't trying to negate the influence of the blues harmonica players that we all know and love.
I think we need to embrace all the harmonica artists regardless if they focus on a more traditional sounding blues or not so our instrument won't be considered a toy to others. So people don't assume that a harmonica is only for blues and won't fit in any other style of music like they do. The top most requested instruments in American popular music bands (guitar, bass, drums, keys) all play tunes in more then one genre, no one tells a keyboardist that he can't play rock songs even though the keyboard is more traditionally known for classical music or a guitarist that he can't play classical even though guitars are more traditionally known in blues or country music.
John Coltrane's music was the product of his deep spirituality, intense study and tireless practicing. To attribute it to a completely fictional amphetamine dependency is ignorant and disgusting.
Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2012 11:05 AM
Ryan: People have always set boundries on what they will accept and not accept. If you bring a harp to a bluegrass gig and try to play blues you will be out on your lonesome. The same goes for most all music generes. Blues music I have found is the most accepting of all the american musics to other styles. I cant tell you how many nights I played with the blues greats and rock shredder guitarists got up and wailed heavy metal stuff over guys like Lightning Hopkins. I have never really fit any genre. The blues purists say I am to much other stuff and the others say I am too much blues. Opinions are just that and if one wants to stay safe it it is best to stay put in what is the concensus for that genere. I guess the best one can do that is different is just play what they like and accept what others have to say about what is different than the norm in that genere. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@waltertore "If you bring a harp to a bluegrass gig and try to play blues you will be out on your lonesome."
That is true & I agree with you but if I learn music theory and learn what chords they are playing at the bluegrass jam I could play bluegrass at the bluegrass jam on a harmonica and prove them all wrong that the harmonica is not just for blues genre. Same goes for any other genre of music. There's a bunch of examples of guys playing diatonic harmonica in rock, bluegrass, jazz, country, world music, etc. But the overall thought from other musicians is that harmonica can only be played in blues genre because the majority of harmonica players only learn to play blues even though it's capable of what you put your mind to.
Ryan: I get you now. Learn what you want to do with a harp and smoke em. Nothing will floor people quicker than dispelling sterotypes. Personally I see harp as a force in all kinds of music. Cut rate, bottom of the barrel, jammers, open mic types,wannabe musicians, may see the harp that way, but truely great musicians see no boundries. Deal with these folks. That is who I played and hung with and continue to play and hang with. I run into more of the bottom of the barrel types on the net than I ever have in a live setting and I am often wondering why do I keep dealing with it but then I meet one cool person and it keeps me active and hoping to me meet more. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I'm a music lover 1st and a harp player 2nd. I like too many different kinds of music to limit myself towards just playing blues. Granted,I started out on the harp just playing blues,but as soon as I was technically able, I tried playing other genres. Although, Blues does have a special place in my heart.
