Well, BR's quality is more inconsistant than SP20. A good BR can be really nice with à big open and crisp sound. SP20 is better OoTB and with à bit more compressed sound. ---------- The tone, the tone ... and the tone.
While I like Big Rivers and use them a lot, I would have to say no, they arent as good as SP20s. They're nowhere near as airtight or responsive as the SP20. I like them because they're fairly inexpensive compared to other harps, and they're readily available at most music retailers if you need one in a hurry. But if I can get my hands on a 20, I'm going for it. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
I was going to give it to a trumpet player who I knew would be frustrated not being able to play chromatically, so I gapped it for overblows. Took about 20 minutes to get the 4,5 and 6.
I wouldn't go buying them, but I was impressed with that.
i have 7 big rivers. C, G, D, A, Eb, F, Bb, and they are all o.k. some are more o.k. than others. some will say they leak like sives but the G is the only real leaky one i have. while they are not my favorite harp i do like chording on them.
i really don't have a favorite harp though. i like my sp20's, golden melody's, lee oskar's, even my marine band's. i also have a love hate relationship with my sydel's.
as far as ease of play the big river's are at the bottom. as far as loud they are at the top. they are also tough as nails.
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2012 1:51 PM
I've used BRs on and off for years. They're tough, and they set up well. They lack some of the nuances you can get from Marine Bands and SP20s but they do have a big sound, especially in the low keys, as they have longer reeds than the corresponding MB and SP20 keys.
One downside - reeds are almost impossible to replace. I've damaged reedplates trying to get the rivets out.
---------- VOTE Winslow Yerxa for SPAH president, with L J Atkison for vice president Winslow for SPAH President (Facebook) Winslow4prez (Youtube) Chair, SPAH entertainment committee Chair, SPAH awards committee Member, SPAH convention planning committee Staff, SPAH Convention event operation
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2012 2:18 PM
ok so the low ones are worth it, an putting on a tight wood comb would better it? the difference in a thunderbird is like 100 bucks. and low chugging is low chugging. so gapping would help?
The BR was a harp I tried real hard to love, but just finally couldn't. I liked its look, its heft, its size, but the darn things just couldn't play well. I had a C and a D, and neither of them was acceptable to me after trying for weeks to make them work for me. These were OTB harps though, and I didn't do anything to them to improve them. Maybe good gapping, or some embossing, or a different comb would help, but I didn't do any of those things, and as I think about it now, all of that would probably seem like too much effort to make a basically inferior harp work like a better one. FWIW. ---------- Matthew
I'm a relative newcomer to posting on the Forum, but I've followed Adam's channel and lurked about here for almost two years. I'd just like to express my gratitude and appreciation to all of you folks who continuously share intelligent, interesting and informative posts. Every time I visit these pages, I leave with something that I can apply to my own playing ( I need all the help I can get... lol). thank you sharing all your awesome knowledge! That being said, as far as the BR harp goes, I agree with HawkeyeKane. If you need a harp in a pinch, they're usually easy to find , relatively inexpensive and as Clyde points out, they're loud. I also like the size and heft of the Big River. My ideal harp would SP20 guts in a BR body. Does anybody ever make one or know of a harp that combines those type features?
One of my bands was recording an album. There were a bunch of new songs that I hadn't heard before that we were going to create in the studio. The song in question was in the key of B and was definitely a cross harp song, but it was a ballad. There was no way a normal E harp would work. I left the studio in search of a Low E at the local music stores to record that afternoon. All I could find was a Big River. The song was a regional hit, one that the band will be playing at nearly every show for the rest of the band's life. I decided to buy a back up harp for emergencies. I got a Special 20 Low E. Since I love Special 20s, I played it at the very next show. Not only could I tell a big difference, the bandleader could as well. "What did you DO?" Now I always use the Big River for that song.
with a bullet style mic that pops over one end. the harp plates removed and possibly two harps inside. i was gonna do it with a 364 marine band but those are too big for the can. if i can fit two harps i can do a high slider nut in open D and use a capo to strum in E. so cool i think im gonna customize a low big river to crunch on.
I had a Big River Db for a long time and got good mileage out of it. It did indeed leak like a sieve; it was indeed a big, loud, unsubtle sound. I was able to gap the 4, 5, and 6 blow reeds pretty easily and it worked for me.
In the age before optimal harps, it was important to have a fallback option. The BR is a workable fallback option.
I like Big River Harps for certain tunings. Golden Melodies, when they were offered in low tunings, didn't work so well, mainly because of reed rattle.
MS harps do have a bigger sound, which works well for certain keys as Michael Rubin described above.
Not get off topic but its MS related have you tried the Blue midnight,Its like a big river but I think they play a hair better,and definitely has a brighter tone,like it says on the box,I play big rivers and LO,and 1923's But I just got a Blue midnight and think its a nice harp for what it is.and thats half way affordle ---------- Hobostubs
i used br's for a time. bigger sound than sp20 no doubt. and to me not really leaky but they do take a bit more wind to play. i even liked them for 3rd position. but i tended to blow them out pretty easily and the replacement reed plates cost near as much as a new harp. i went over to bushman delta frost and set the br's aside. now i have several manji's i like very well. no br's in my case but a couple in reserve.
I pretty much always use Big Rivers -- they're the cheapest option, and I'm a college student. That said, I've had a couple special 20s, and I actually preferred the BRs. Maybe it's just because I'm used to them, but my tone was far fatter and fuller on the Big Rivers. I thought that it might've been a bit easier to hit expressive bends on the special 20, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice. I also like to hope that by only playing on mediocre harps, I'll be enabling myself to transfer my technique onto any harp out there and make it work nicely (that's what I tell myself when I don't want to admit that I'm cheap). ---------- Check out my music at http://bmeyerson11.bandcamp.com/
yeah hobo. got a pal does custom bone carving im thinking a low F with wood comb and bone cover plates to get rid of that tin sound. can embossing fix the leaks? i means wheres it leak the comb or the reeds?
Sometimes both. Replacing the comb helps more than embossing. If you replace the comb, try florida-trader's combs which are flat and improve playability. Embossing helps, too. Gapping helps more.
i always gap got to at least the draw reeds. the blow ones i can usually blow into shape without taking the nails out. i really dont like responsive harps that seem to be broken in. never liked the blues harp ever. and i actually like the lung workout of a koch fake chromatic. florida trader is this guy? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-Wood-Comb-for-Hohner-MS-Series-Harmonicas-/190602506156?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c60cb6fac#ht_1909wt_656
I gapp mine and thats it,I tried the messing with getting a harp all fixed up nice with messing around with them,and it did make them play a little better,but I firgured it was just better to practice more and us OTB harps maybe gapped,Because the embossing and all the other tricks seemed to take alot of time to do,and in the end I couldnt play them that much better;-) ---------- Hobostubs
"seems to me the loudness secret would be in the cover plates like the old style standby try putting big river plates on a special 20"
That might be possible, but you'd have to do some machining on the BR cover plates and get creative with the screw setup since the BR is almost 1/4 inch longer than a SP20.
Honestly though, when it comes to MS, I prefer Blues Harp coverplates. The backs are open much wider and they're more comfortable to hold in my hands. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
was that a cut on my playing or my music,I dont care either way but ,emphysema ,where that come from?My music might not be the best but its mine,Ill take with me when I die. ---------- Hobostubs
I'm really trying to find a reason not to use Big Rivers, but I keep coming back to them. I've been using them since 5 years ago when I bought a Bb to play along with Adam's videos. I have never blown one out, even though I used to play pretty hard. I have them in G,A,Bb,C,D,E and F and prefer them to marine bands I have in the same keys. My favourite ones are the lower keys. My G is excellent; after gapping it for overblowing 5 & 6 it is sweet. When I compare the sound to Sp. 20, I find the 20 is too tinny sounding. I'm considering getting some bamboo combs for mine, but I don't find them especially leaky anyway. I've only ever had one that wasn't playable (D) after gapping. I would definitely recommend Big Rivers for people starting out, learning to gap reeds, etc., and maybe you'll keep liking them. ----------
I like them, they are louder than Blues harps. They are very comfortable to play. They do leak, but I have gotten very good results by putting in custom combs for them. I can get a BR plus a custom comb for less than the price of a SP20 (Special 20s are about $45 here).
In my last order from Blue Moon Harmonicas (Florida-Trader on Ebay) Tom threw in a few extras. I would never have bought an acrylic comb since I prefer wood because I can sand it to my liking, but he threw one in for free.
I tried it this morning. It is as airtight as the wooden comb I had sanded down and swapped in previously. I am impressed. A lot less work than a wooden comb...
Now, Big Rivers (all MS system harps) have short, wide reeds while SP20s, MBs and GMs have long narrow reeds. the long, narrow reeds overbend well while short/wide reeds tend to squeal and require more work like embossing the rivet end and putting an adhesive around the rivet pad. But for someone who doesn't overblow or for someone who uses overbends as passing notes, the Big River has a lot of potential. I think they sound better than SP20s.
And for lower keys, they are my choice harp.
P.S. Thanks so much Tom for the extra combs! I can't wait to try the Corian one!
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Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2012 10:36 AM
no hobo not you im just saying i keep hearing oh this sounds terrible out of the box that one sounds awful out of the box. i take just about any harp out of a box break it in chugging and work my way up to the 7th hole then play 1st till the 8 9 and 10 sound right with the rest. if i get a flat reed i gap it usually by not even taking it apart. playing since 1978 i smoke ive never had the need to send anything out to a harmonica rocket scientist. sometimes i can free a stuck reed just my blowing and drawing on it. i also mill and cut wood combs by hand no power tools. i like flintstones work i dont care if it takes 100 years to do. if it doesnt work theres no one to blame but me. sorry you took that the wrong way. i just remember blues harp guys years back telling me marine bands were too hard to play like guitarists who play play an acoustic with heavy gauge strings because it hurts their fingers. i have never understood this. actually id like to hear you play hobo you got a link?
IMHO sp20s are as air tight as they come and as many agree the big rivers leak-they are loud with the open covers in the back but I cant stand the leaks sp20 is much better harp and still are not expensive
I wasnt sure what you meant,I had to grow a thick skin with my music ,i grew up around alot of decent musicians and Im alate bloomer;-)But the emphasema thew me,cause I could be in better health,but I have a few out there there not all that but doing allright in the charts ,I dont know why,(its all mine cause I play the bass ,guitar and harp and sing,sometimes all at once well minus the bass;-)Jack of all instrument master of none;-)
---------- Hobostubs
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2012 11:11 AM
Well ya know they are big leaky harps. But i do like the low ones i do have. I prefer Sp20's . Like the man says ya get whats you pays fer. i have put permatech on some and sealed em and i do likes the way the sound. little briter than the 20's not as tiney as the suzukis. So far am not convinced that the supernova delux md20/20 with embossed windsaver and thermonuclear decoupling of the playing surface will make Johnny jukebox a better player so if ya find one that makes a noise that pleases you take car of it like your best girl(err boy) it may be with you longer then them. I still occasionally play a blues harp i bought in 70.
well,Ive been playing 3 years(harmonica) ,I try to play the blues,but a I also play what I write,)which is the majority)Im also taking lessons at harmonica academy,which is blues and celtic ,with the celtic being the bread and buter there,So ive spent alot of time trying to learn the celtic stuff,which the songs I know I know,pretty well but not alot of fancy embelishments,im hoping that will develop;but it takes me about 6 months to learn a celtic tune note for note,But I like the chalenge,I love the blues and have been doing some study of it,But here the last few months I have gone back to study of the guitar Cause it was me 1st love,and Im taking a basic blues course for it,I feel in time i will get better at the harp but in no hurry,But i have over 20 years at the guitar Im running out of patience;-) ---------- Hobostubs
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2012 11:40 AM
i do build my own Cbg's and play half of the time in a rack,But rack is hard its a whole different world ;-)Not that harp alone is easy,its the demon in disguise ---------- Hobostubs
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2012 11:52 AM
