Joe_L
1771 posts
Mar 04, 2012
8:15 PM
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I had some time to screw around in the studio. I thought I would break out some microphones. This time, I grabbed a brand new Astatic JT30 Roadhouse, a Hohner Blues Blaster with a MC-151 element and a Hohner Blues Blaster with a Shure Controlled Magnetic Element. I plugged them into a Super Sonny amplifier. I set up a Zoom H2 recorder about ten feet away from the amp and played a bit.
Microphone 1
Microphone 2
Microphone 3
Which mic is which?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2012 8:26 PM
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Willspear
64 posts
Mar 04, 2012
8:50 PM
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I can't tell on my phone much of a difference in the first two
The third I don't care what it is it is closest to what I look for in a bullet. Vintage or non.
So my guess is
new jt
Vintage crystal
Cm
In that order.
Like I said I am going by the speaker on my phone
At the end of the day if I was blind picking my favorite. I'd take mic number 3. Watch that one be the one with the bad rap
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Jehosaphat
190 posts
Mar 04, 2012
9:15 PM
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They all sounded good!
Anyway heres my go.
1 roadhouse
2 bluesblaster c/m
3 bluesblaster m/c 151
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billy_shines
148 posts
Mar 04, 2012
9:28 PM
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i like two the real deal. 3 had breath explosions all over. which one is 2 i want it. sounds like a bow on strings nice.
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SuperBee
100 posts
Mar 05, 2012
1:37 AM
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I actually liked 2 the best, but I dunno what it is. I expect 1 is the new roadhouse. I have never heard 1 but led to believe they are a bit thin. It sounded good to me, but I thought 2 was a bit fuller, rounder. 3 sounds just like my real hot cm, but some of those 151s are reputedly even hotter. Anyway, i'm not confident but I'll plump for
1 new roadhouse
2 151
3 CM
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Patrick Barker
420 posts
Mar 05, 2012
2:48 AM
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I don't know about the first two but I think the third was the 151. They all sound pretty damn good through a Sonny amplifier though- I guess it just shows the amp matters more.
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It's all in the tongue
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Greg Heumann
1519 posts
Mar 05, 2012
7:06 AM
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@Patrick
Everything matters. And what matters most is player technique - acoustic tone and microphone technique. Joe does both very well. But a great player still sounds better through great gear for sure. I know all of those elements and I know I can hear a difference LIVE. I certainly have a harder time from the recordings. I've said it many times - you just can't put much salt in what you hear over the internet.
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/Greg
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Willspear
68 posts
Mar 05, 2012
7:24 AM
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Worth noting. When recording a tiny amp sounds massive and a massive amp often sounds tiny.
Not always true. But is often the case.
There is no comparison live for the amount of air being moved. A bassman works great live but in the studio a champ or the like blows it away unless using isolation
Just like you can hear differences in a vintage amp vs a reissue of the amp. I had the opportunity for a real 59 bassman before I ever played harp. The tone I was getting from the reissue was just slightly different. Little brighter was the extent of it. This is the old reissue but with a tube rectifier.
At the end of the day I would use a reissue bassman over the original because they sound 95% the same with my fingers.
Mics seem to me to have a fair bit of variance between em one to the next. I was using a dx and compared it to another dx being used by another harp player I know. The two were as different as the clips show across 3 elements here. Same model. Same dynamic Mexican element. Similar age. Enough different to hear it in person.
I don't like crystal Mics for several reasons. Despite tone. I will break them some how. Or I'll leave em in the car and the temperature will do em in. The cm and cr elements are pretty bomb proof.
I don't get super elitist over Mics but I use several. Not because of what element it is but for what they do with a given song or amp volume
I generally like a sound with a fair bit of cut/ presence.
Sometimes I like a clean mic and a dirty amp
Sometimes I like a overdriven mic into a lower volume amp
Sometimes I need a mic that isn't going to feed back as readily with an unfamiliar amp
Sometimes I want the amp and mic to sound like they are going to blow up.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2012 7:33 AM
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LittleBubba
200 posts
Mar 05, 2012
8:18 AM
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I agree with the sentiment that mics gotta be matched up to the amp. Of course this is easier if you're capable of modding mics & amps. I think that comparing mics into the same amp is only useful if you're not willing to mate the mic with the right amp. Comparing them all thru one amp does not necessarily mean that the comparison carries to the next amp.
I had a 2-beer & 2-finger Scotch buzz on Saturday after work and I fired up my Epi Valve Special amp and played thru a BluesBlaster and my vintage 515. The 515 seemed to just blow the BluesBlaster away, hands down.
That must be the sound I like nowadays, 'cuz I'm using the 515 almost exclusively.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2012 8:20 AM
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Kingley
1844 posts
Mar 05, 2012
9:21 AM
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Ditto to what Greg says.
Joe L - They all sound very similar over my laptop. I'm gonna go for.
1 - MC151
2 - Modern Crystal
3 - CM
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9000
103 posts
Mar 05, 2012
9:40 AM
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Greg makes a great point. To take it another step. I've had amps and mics and amp/mic combinations that sounded SO good in my living room that I was in tone heaven. When I took them out tho the gig they usually had no cut and felt really sluggish. Sometimes I'll line up 4 or 5 mics on top of my amp at the gig to experiment. I always come back to the same 3 mics. Let the buyer beware....
All the best,
Jay
PS--Good reason to buy quality from someone who knows what it is like Greg.
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Music speaks where words fail.
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5F6H
1092 posts
Mar 05, 2012
10:45 AM
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If I heard #2 without any of the others, then I would have thought that it did the job just fine...If I turned up at a club & Joe was playing the #2 rig, I'd still enjoy the night and wouldn't think anything was "wrong". Joe makes it work.
However, with the benefit of an A/B/C, #2 sounds the weakest, lower output...maybe this could be tweaked, but I'm assuming Joe left the amp settings the same between the 3 clips. So this suggests the Roadhouse to me?
The other mics? Difficult, I'd hate to call it...but I'll play nevertheless (can't help myself...) #1 = CM, #3 = 151.
Some mic & amp combinations are just sublime for no apparent reason, so it's worth collecting up a few mics at least, just because you never know...but I tend to feel a great mic through a poor amp (maybe "unsuitable" amp is a better phrase..."poor" & "good" don't really have a tangible common factor like brand, or price) won't always allow the mic to shine. But a great amp will make life easier, irrespective of mic. A great amp will let the character of the mic shine through & allow a good sound from a reasonable, functioning mic.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
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MP
2080 posts
Mar 05, 2012
11:13 AM
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i'll play.
1.roadhouse
2. cm
3. 151
this is difficult because there are good cms and not so good. there are good crystals and not so good.
i've lucked out w/ only two 151s. most were just sorta okay. the variation of tone from cm to cm is pretty wide. the difference between a great crystal (like my brush crystal) and the roadhouse is enormous.
i probably called them wrong.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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Joe_L
1774 posts
Mar 06, 2012
8:15 PM
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Here are the answers.
1. MC-151
2. JT30RH
3. CM
Congrats Kingley.
For those of you who made nice comments, thanks.
Greg raised a really good point. When playing the CM mic, you could feel it the sound from the amp in your chest. I was actually quite surprised by the subtle difference in the recording. I expected the JT30RH to sound darker in the recording. It sounded that way in the room.
I left the amp settings the same for each mic.
I could and have used any of the microphones in a club setting. No one ever complained about the tone.
Personally, I don't think that I would spend a tremendous amount of money on a vintage mic, if all of my stuff was lost or stolen. I would probably replace the Super Sonny. I would get a JT30RH, play it and not bother searching any further.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2012 8:16 PM
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Willspear
71 posts
Mar 06, 2012
8:58 PM
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Bah I was close. Not too shabby though
As I figured the cm was the mic I preferred.
Makes sense as I play cr or cms all the time except when using a stick mic.
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Kingley
1847 posts
Mar 06, 2012
10:12 PM
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Joe - Thanks for posting the clips. It was a pretty close call tonally on the recordings. I expect there will be a slightly bigger difference live. I might have to see if I can get hold of one of those JT30RH mics. I honestly expected it to sound "tinny". I was pleasantly surprised by how much bottom end it had.
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2012 10:13 PM
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Joe_L
1779 posts
Mar 06, 2012
10:16 PM
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If you're going to get one, try to pick it up cheaply. I got mine for $50(us).
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Kingley
1849 posts
Mar 06, 2012
10:23 PM
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Cheers Joe. I'll keep my eyes open for one.
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billy_shines
162 posts
Mar 06, 2012
10:59 PM
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i want one where you get it for 50?
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Willspear
72 posts
Mar 07, 2012
4:05 AM
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They go on sale for like 60 bucks quite often on guitar centers site or musicians friend.
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Joe_L
1889 posts
Jun 19, 2012
10:14 AM
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I got it for $50 at Musician's Friend. They run that price on a periodic basis.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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HawkeyeKane
999 posts
Jun 19, 2012
1:33 PM
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I got my Roadhouse as a warranty exchange for my Bluesblaster that went bad. I liked it a lot til the element went out on me a year ago. I've got a Turner ceramic ready to put in it after I get a gasket made and toy with a different paint job on it.
One word of advice I might have for anyone buying one of these...don't use the screw-on cable that comes with it. They wear out very easily. Either get a good screw-on cable made by someone reliable and skilled like Greg, or put a Switchcraft 1/4" adapter on it and use a good instrument cable.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2012 1:33 PM
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bharper
183 posts
Jun 19, 2012
3:38 PM
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The mic is selling for $49.99 today at Musicians Friend and Amazon. Tempting...
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Old Hickory
2 posts
Jun 21, 2012
2:05 AM
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I was really interested in one of these especially for $49.99 but they just bumped that price up to $89.99 at Amazon and Musicians Friend. I figured I could play the thing until the element crapped out and then send it to Greg and let him work his magic on it but the latest price increase has me on the fence. I like the tone Joe got out of it though.
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HawkeyeKane
1010 posts
Jun 21, 2012
6:59 AM
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@Old Hickory
Just keep your eye on the price. It goes up and down.
Just a side note...with harmonicasandstuff.com going out of business, their Bluesblasters are at 76.00 right now in case anyone's interested.
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Hawkeye Kane
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barbequebob
1946 posts
Jun 21, 2012
10:38 AM
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I have several MC-151's and MC-127 ceramics that I bought new from the 70's and have played a quite a few of them made in the 50's as well. They all tend to vary quite a lot. You can have 5 of them and each will be different. Some quieter, some much louder, and some of the 50's stuff I tried in the 80's were so loud I couldn't even turn the amp on. Now remember, this is long before the Kinder AFB box was made and what I later found out was that the really loud SOB's had a huge amount of bass response and, back then, like many harp players who had owned a real Bassman, I'd turn the bass up at 8-10 and sometimes all the way up, but I found out much later about it being the bass response being very high on the very hottest, oldest models, and so what I wound up doing was turning the bass down to about 6 or 7 and had few feedback problems (when you tend to work more with a stand up bass, you aren't gonna have as many volume problems as you would with electric bass).
Two things to take into account on how crystals react that most people ignore is the room temperature and body heat because those two can make crystals react wildly in just seconds and so I usually set the volume control in my mic at 3/4 of the way up before setting the volume on the amp to combat it because I know for a fact this is something that will happen and the so-called Rod Piazza mod, even when you have it on your JT30, I still set it up this way so that when volume drops because of the room temperature and body heat, I turn the control up on the mic and I'm back in business, but as soon as you hand it to someone who hasn't sweated, the pot has to be turned down again because the crystal reacts to body heat.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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tmf714
1137 posts
Jun 21, 2012
11:49 AM
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I purchsed one from Musicians Friend just to mess around with.
I opened it up for the first time today-japanese element behind 1/4" foam and thin grille cloth.
5 meg ohm audio pot with a 150 pf capacitor-I reassembled it without the foam,and will give it a go at the next jam.
The foam more than likely provides a slight amount of feedback resistance,and coupled with the 150 pf cap,provides the good bottom on this mic.
The grille itself is much thicker than the original JT-30,so I was hoping by eliminating the foam,I can move the element closer to the fornt of the mic.
The jap element is the same as the newer model Blues Blaster-longevity is surely an issue,especially here in Florida with a very humid climate.
Last Edited by on Jun 21, 2012 11:52 AM
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HawkeyeKane
1012 posts
Jun 21, 2012
11:56 AM
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"The jap element is the same as the newer model Blues Blaster-longevity is surely an issue,especially here in Florida with a very humid climate."
I would agree. I'm kinda put off of crystals at this point. My BB, my RH, and my Shaker RR have all failed on me. If (I won't say "and when" because I've occasionally heard of those Jap crystals living long lives) it does fail on you, might wanna look into a ceramic if that falls into your taste. Less suceptible to climate and shock damage.
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Hawkeye Kane
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TheATL
41 posts
Jun 21, 2012
4:03 PM
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Just wanted to throw one other consideration into the mix here - the files Joe_L created are MP3 files. MP3 is a lossy compression method, meaning that it makes files smaller by throwing away so many bits that you never can recreate the original from the compressed file. Just what bits are removed is complicated.
Studies have shown that you can tinker with audio waveforms in particular ways, throwing out parts, and humans will not notice most of the time because the brain does all sorts of magic reconstruction of missing parts - pretty amazing, really. In other words, the brain expects a certain sound to be there, so it makes it, even though that sound is not actually there. There is also audio masking which says that certain sounds can be removed because either they are really close in frequency to other sounds, or because they are covered up by frequencies that are farther away, but those far-away sounds, if they are loud enough, make it so the brain does not detect that you have removed the quieter sound.
The problem with this is that it works pretty well, but not really well. (For an example of really aggressive, but really cr***y audio compression, consult your cel phone). So it is very hard, especially on something like harp which is really gritty (a *very* complex sound), to predict exactly how the sound will be perceived once it has been compressed and decompressed. Some of what we here may be due to codec (compression/decompression) errors, and may not have been in the original live sound.
If you really want to capture what is going on, you will need to use a lossless compression algorithm such as Broadcast WAV. But then the files will be *BIG*. So it is a tradeoff.
Anyway, just pointing out that some of what you hear when you compare files may be compression artifacts and not mic differences.
Brad
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Joe_L
1892 posts
Jun 21, 2012
5:02 PM
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@tmf714 - i noticed that the foam biscuit helped to tame some of the brightness of the element and help with the onset of feedback.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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bonedog569
539 posts
Jun 21, 2012
9:42 PM
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Great Joe - good job on recording with the zoom. I think plenty of differences can be heard MP3 or not, and I was really surprised # 2 was the cheap modern element - it was singing. The biggest variable - and impossible to completely contol without a looper pedal,- is the attack you are playing with on each round.
Funny 5F hears #2 as being lower output - it comes off as hotter - driving the amp into more sustain to my ears.
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Last Edited by on Jun 22, 2012 8:31 AM
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barbequebob
1949 posts
Jun 22, 2012
7:46 AM
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the kobitone crystals tend to emphasizes highs too much, which often happens with most crystals, and that wasn't the case with the old MC-151's or even the old MC-101's (the 101's doesn't have the midreange presence rise and that's what makes them sound different and in some amps, it can be an advantage)>
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
2308 posts
Jun 22, 2012
1:06 PM
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my favorite mutha of all crystals finally died. nothing comes close. i know BBQBob knows what i'm talking about. most every crystal you come across, be it NOS, new, EV,Shure, Brush etc. is going to be just sorta ok. BUT, if you get a great one, NOTHING can touch it in tone.
for the time being i'm playing really nice CRs but i'm so spoiled.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
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Rick Davis
529 posts
Jul 17, 2012
2:35 PM
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tmf714- Do you think a Shure CM element would fit in that shell? It looks like the pot might interfere with the magnet on the back of the CM...
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-Rick Davis
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MP
2345 posts
Jul 17, 2012
3:09 PM
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tmf wrote"The foam more than likely provides a slight amount of feedback resistance,and coupled with the 150 pf cap,provides the good bottom on this mic."
@Joe L. "@tmf714 - i noticed that the foam biscuit helped to tame some of the brightness of the element and help with the onset of feedback".
Question gentlemen.
since my crystal no worky i'm useing a CR in a Biscuit.
i have no feed problems but i'm considering putting a cap in there for more low end.
now,if i didn't use a cap and just stuffed the mic with foam would that increase the bottom end a bit or at least reduce highs?
thanks, mark prados.
MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
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Joe_L
1931 posts
Jul 17, 2012
4:45 PM
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@Rick - I know someone who has put a Shure White Label CR in the JT30-RH. He didn't report any issues.
@MP - Couldn't tell you. Sorry.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Rick Davis
530 posts
Jul 17, 2012
6:57 PM
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Joe, thanks.
MP, an old boy I once knew who worked on bullet mics for harp had a trick for that... He cut out a round piece from a latex glove and put it behind the grill in front of the element. He swore it smoothed out the highs and made the mic sound like it had a bigger low end. He did it to my mic (a JT-30 at the time) but the difference was pretty subtle.
Might be worth a try... maybe multiple layers of latex, or a different thickness?
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-Rick Davis
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bonedog569
567 posts
Jul 17, 2012
7:52 PM
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"latex - - put behind the grill" Does that make it "Safe Blues"?
couldn'd help myself - scusie.
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Greg Heumann
1702 posts
Jul 17, 2012
9:13 PM
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A capacitor does NOT add low end. A passive component cannot add anything. It can only take away. The capacitor may remove some treble. When a capacitor is used together with a volume control, as in a blues blaster - it rolls off more highs at full volume than it does at lower volume settings, theoretically making the frequency response more consistent at various volume settings. Personally, I've tried connecting/disconnecting the cap at various volume settings and couldn't hear a damn thing. Furthermore if I back my volume off it is because I want to blend in more - I'm comping, not soloing - therefore a roll of of highs is OK with me.
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/Greg
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MP
2349 posts
Jul 18, 2012
3:52 PM
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hey Rick Davis!
good to see you back.
i'm gonna forget about caps n stuff. i'll just keep an eye out for a serious crystal.
unfortunately, i really love the sound of elements that are absolutely certain to fail after a couple of years.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
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bonedog569
568 posts
Jul 18, 2012
5:19 PM
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Is it possible to just purchase a kobitone crystal element? - I've got varioius shell's lying around including a spare JT30.
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Joe_L
1934 posts
Jul 18, 2012
8:49 PM
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Dude - those things suck. Didn't you listen to the audio clips?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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bonedog569
570 posts
Jul 18, 2012
11:00 PM
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But Mikey liked it.
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The7thDave
290 posts
Aug 08, 2012
3:51 PM
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Roadhouses are going for $49.99 right now on Amazon.
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--Dave
* BTMFH *
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