Someone emailed me asking about a comment I made about the variety of scale choices you have for playing over a blues progression with D7 chords. This is an over simplification of getting into using more notes than the blue scale over the I without learning a ton of theory.
Besides using the blues scale, you can use the following (not a complete list by any means):
Mixolydian - 1-3-5-b7-9-11-13 Pentatonics Dorian - 3rd Position Phrygian - 5th Position Dominant BeBop - 1-3-5-b7-7-9-11-13
From timeistight:
Here are the various minor scales:
Natural minor: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 8
Harmonic minor: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7, 8 Like natural minor but with a major 7.
Melodic minor (classical): 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, b7, b6, 5, 4, b3, 2, 1 Raise the 6 and 7 ascending, back to natural minor descending.
Melodic minor (jazz): : 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Uses the classical melodic minor ascending no matter the direction.
If you are building chords from these, the 2nds, 4ths and 6ths get called 9ths, 11ths and 13ths.
The whole-tone and diminished scales don't really fit into to the number interval scheme you're using because they aren't seven-note scales. It's problably easier to see them from an example in C:
Whole tone: C, D, E, Gb, Ab, Bb, C
Diminished (whole-half): C, D, Eb, F, Gb, G#, A, B, C (typically used over a C diminished chord)
Diminished (half-whole):C, Db, Eb, E, F#, G, A, Bb, C (can be played over C7)
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Depending on the mood you're trying to convey and your level of comfort playing "out", some work better than others. I don't have a chart in front of me and am working from memory, so if I screwed something up, let me know.
All of these technically work over a D7 chord, which makes up most blues progressions. That being said, it really depends on what the chords actually are...for example, D7(b13).
This can all get heady very quickly. I guess the easiest way to start digesting it might be through note exclusion. Really, over the I chord of a blues, the only notes you don't want to really play in 2nd position on a C harp are F# and Ab. That can all be debated, but if you are looking to use more of the harp, I'd suggest adding in the Mixolydian mode with the blues scale.
Then I would learn to play those scales in first and third positions in order to follow the harmony of the I IV V progression.
I will be the first to admit that I know the stuff I use really well, but have a huge gap in talking about, explaining, and using things I don't normally play beyond a procedural approach.
This is where theory gets hard. Why not pick a great solo by a harp player you admire and learn it note for note. You'll be playing in most of the above scales and bypass the theory bit.
This is the recommended method of most if not all of the greats.
The emphasis on copping from everyone BUT harp players is fatally flawed.
Your suggested approach is also extremely inefficient and limiting as it pertains to becoming a great harmonica player...whether it be as a niche player or someone more diverse. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
If you want to bypass theory and think copping licks from harp players is the only way to learn, why are you reading a thread called "Scales for Dominant 7 Chords"?
Theory isn't hard...especially if you have any confidence in basic mathematics. It just takes the effort, and you only even need to learn what is practical to your goals...which is actually very easy regarding just playing harmonica.
But, per your effort, we are totally off topic.
*And what does any of my OP have to do with trying to avoid learning from other harmonica players? ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Feb 29, 2012 11:37 AM
OT, but when I first started playing, I would read tab books without playing them. I had a couple books from David Barrett and they let me compare note choices to the chords being played. I would follow along with the book while listening to the solos - mostly Carey Bell, William Clarke, and Charlie Musselwhite.
By understanding his brief summary in each book of what the blues scale is and how it works, along with the above, I could both see and hear what was going on. He also has a great explanation to get a start on phrasing.
When I went to play songs I didn't now, it became really obvious what notes they were most likely playing.
Later, I did the same thing by taking tab books to other instruments - like a Miles Davis book - and transcribing it to harmonica tab.
Finally, I started creating visual representations of different positions related to that. The trick was thinking in terms of SCALE DEGREES rather than holes on a harmonica. That way, it became easy to transpose things.
In the end, I was much more interested in phrasing than note choice. The rhythms played inspired me more as I eventually figured out it was damn hard to play wrong notes in cross harp over a blues.
Big picture, though, learning to play with a band made it necessary to have at least as much funcational theory as a good guitar player. Not to mention the benefits of music theory as it relates to phrasing and making things interesting.
Ninja, I am fairly sure I know what you mean by these scales, but will you write them out in scale degrees? Dominant BeBop Diminished Whole Tone Diminished
I like to write out a song I want to learn as "notes"...and above them I put my own short hand for the dynamics being used. It's fun doing this- because it shows me what notes are being utilized for the chord changes and what scale degrees they're using to propel their phrasing as they build their solo. It's a lot of fun to recognize the different scales their working out of too. Knowing what notes I'm playing and how they relate to the changes and why a scale degree has a certain sound really has helped me feel confident when soloing, along with giving me the ability when improvising to really lay into a note or a phrase of notes because I can hear what it's going to sound like before I play it.
Last Edited by on Feb 29, 2012 3:00 PM
A pragmatic approach to fitting scales to chords is to say:
1) What notes are in the chord?
2) What notes are NOT in the chord?
What happens when I play notes not in the chord against the chord?
What happens if I string the notes of the chord and some of the non-chord notes into a scale?
This approach can free you from the labor of memorizing and applying dozens of different scales, and letting you focus instead on exploring effects of certain note combinations. Later you may find that some of the combinations you like have an identity as a scale. ----------
Harmonic minor and melodic minor seem like odd choices over seventh chords -- they both feature the major seventh interval which will clash with both the minor seventh and the tonic of the chord.
Last Edited by on Feb 29, 2012 3:33 PM
@HarpNinja: A harmonic minor scale has a major 7th. A jazz melodic minor scale has a major 7th. A melodic minor scale has a major 7th ascending and a flat 7th descending. It's not clear to me how any of these would work well over a dominant 7th chord.
With melodic minor you use the ascending mode (with major 7th) but:
-- You use the seventh mode
-- You voice the chord in fourths
This is widely used in jazz, but it may sound way sophisto for down home blues even though it has a very dark sound.
For E7, you'd use F melodic minor:
E F G Ab(G#) Bb C D
Voice the chord in 4ths:
E Ab(G#) D G C F Bb
This scale is often called the altered scale -- because every scale degree that can be altered is altered (in comparison with a major scale) and the chord is called an altered dominant.
Note how that E to Ab interval is a diminished 4th - one of the very rare occurrences of that interval. And gee whiz, it sounds just like a major 3th in an equal tempered scale.
A softer way to use the melodic minor over a 7th chord is to use the fourth mode, which is often referred to as the Lydian Dominant. So over an E7, you'd use B melodic minor:
E F# G# A# B C# D
The thing that really stands out here is the raised 4th degree (or 11th if you use it in a chord). It gives the scale a sort of floating feeling.
You could also use the fifth mode, which would have you using A melodic minor over an E7:
E F# G# A B C D
Here the striking thing is the minor 6th degree. This one isn't heard as often as the other two. ----------
"This scale is often called the altered scale -- because every scale degree that can be altered is altered (in comparison with a major scale) and the chord is called an altered dominant."
It's also called the Diminished Whole Tone (because it starts out like a diminished scale (e.g., C, Db, Eb, E) and ends like a whole tone scale(Gb, Ab, Bb, C). But HarpNinja already included the Diminished Whole-tone scale in his list so I assumed he wasn't talking about modes of the melodic minor, but rather the melodic minor itself.
This stuff is only useful if you can hear it. It also depends on alterations of the upper intervals or compound. The concept is color and is more than just playing a scale. e.g. A natural minor played against G7 would put emphasis on the color of the ninth. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Actually, the diminished wholetone thing has longer chains of both, and they overlap:
For instance, with C melodic minor:
A B C D Eb F (diminished)
Eb F G A B (whole tone)
I had this demonstrated to me dramatically once. I was listening to Toots Thielemans noodle on guitar and I heard him play a scale that half the time sounded diminished and half the time sounded like a wholetone scale, even though I could tell it was the same scale. The two components seemed to overlap in a delightfully confusing way. I knew intellectually that melodic minor had this dual quality, but I was really hearing it that way for the first time yet failing to identify it. When I remarked on the dual nature of the scale, he just smiled and said, "Of course; it's melodic minor."
I added scale degrees to the OP. The melodic Minor has a few variations you can play. I am not as versed in the variations, though.
Of what I listed in the OP, anything below melodic minor (as it applies to playing modaly) is something I might use a riff or two from, but I wouldn't be real comfortable jamming at length with.
I use the Dominant BeBop a lot along with the others listed. Part of my issue is the last two years I've only gigged solo, rock, and typical blues stuff. When I was playing with the band NiteRail, the guitar player's comping allowed me to experiment more with this stuff. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Added...I think I wrote them out right...at least down to the Whole Tone and Diminished. I am trying to transcribe from harp tab to scale degrees in my mind without a harp handy.
I probably think of this stuff all wrong and I think in terms of modes, the positions they can represent, and then how notes of the mode can be altered to create a new scale.
Again, I can BS a few of these, but really am not fluent in the bottom few. I mostly use the first few listed and then weave them in and out of each other.
For example, if I am playing 3rd position and thinking in terms of Dorian, I'll add the 3' or 6ob to create a more Melodic Minor feel. If I really wanted to play Melodic Minor, I'd just play in 4th position. I tend to pick whatever the easiest harp is going to be to play.
For 4-5 years, I was hardcore about this stuff working with Clint Hoover, Buddha, and a Berklee guitar player. Then, when I wasn't applying it anymore, I started to forget it.
I regressed from learning Miles Davis solos to basic blues chording (for solo tunes - not a dig on playing blues).
I had a duo rock gig last week and played 50% of the songs in 2nd - all Mixolydian based, 30% in 3rd - all minor, and 20% in 12th - mostly major with some blues.
@Michael: The diminished whole-tone scale is the seventh mode of melodic minor scale -- in other words, in the key of C you'd play a C# melodic minor scale. It's also known as the altered scale, as Winslow says. It's spelled tonic, minor second, minor third, major third (technically a diminished fourth), diminished fifth, minor sixth, minor seventh.
The bold intervals are the chord tones of dominant seventh.
Last Edited by on Mar 01, 2012 7:59 AM
The 9 is the same as the 2. The 11 is the same as the 4. The 13 is the same as the 6. I just remember being told to say 2, 4, and 6 isn't the "cool" way to do it, lol.
I could have typos, though. If a band told me Melodic Minor, I would visualize it as 4th position and think of the intervals relative to a C harp...which is where I can get screwed up when trying to write this stuff out for others.
For exmaple (and this is NOT the right way to think of it). In 4th, the Melodic Minor would be:
3" 3 4+ 4 5+ 5 6+ 6
I would try to translate without thinking of the sharps and flats
1=3" 2=3 3=4+ 4=4 5=5+ 6=5 7=6
or
1=3" 9=3 3=4+ 11=4 5=5+ 13=5 7=6
And if someone said play the b7, I would just play the 7th tone of the scale and assume that since I am using 4th position that it is flatted correctly.
I don't know if that makes sense, but I know I don't conceptualize it it in technically correct terms, but get to the right conclusion. This works for me so long as the song fits nicely into a position/scale I know. It is slow, but works for scales I don't know real well if I think of it in terms of a position.
I don't really have a large interest in jazz anymore, so I've started bad habits in playing "out" over blues progressions. If I guess wrong, I am savvy enough to know that I am probably only a half step off...and I know enough about scales and harmony to know what notes generally won't work.
Someone like Winslow will articulate this much better than I can. My theory is pretty much 90% functional to harmonica and probably conecputalized as such.
I think I have this all tabbed out in a Jazz book at home (correctly)...I know I do...I'll have to dig it out. If anyone can point out specific errors before than or a preferred method of sharing it or additional scales that are helpful - let me know!
I have no shame in making the corrections or aknowledging the errors!
If time allows, I'll try and scan some of the materials at one point. I did that with a bunch of 2nd position blues scale patterns - like what Jason Ricci talks about in some vids, but I'd have to search for them.
Most the stuff I have is scribbled in books with the exception of some tabs from David Barrett books (which I should not be scanning). I don't mind sharing my own work, though. Most the stuff is 5+ years old and buried somewhere in my shop. We finished a part of the house and I packed it all up about a year ago...I never got it back out and it may take a while to find it. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Harmonic minor: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7, 8 Like natural minor but with a major 7.
Melodic minor (classical): 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, b7, b6, 5, 4, b3, 2, 1 Raise the 6 and 7 ascending, back to natural minor descending.
Melodic minor (jazz): : 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Uses the classical melodic minor ascending no matter the direction.
If you are building chords from these, the 2nds, 4ths and 6ths get called 9ths, 11ths and 13ths.
The whole-tone and diminished scales don't really fit into to the number interval scheme you're using because they aren't seven-note scales. It's problably easier to see them from an example in C:
Whole tone: C, D, E, Gb, Ab, Bb, C
Diminished (whole-half): C, D, Eb, F, Gb, G#, A, B, C (typically used over a C diminished chord)
Diminished (half-whole):C, Db, Eb, E, F#, G, A, Bb, C (can be played over C7)
I edited the OP. Before your last post, I went back and posted cleaner versions of the scales, which formatted correctly in the post, but upon saving, it was all wrong again.
I just deleted them and copy/pasted part of your post (cited you as well).
If I were more tech-abled, I'd condense this down to a .PDF and post it embedded in the OP as a .jpg. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
So who uses more than one scale in a tune and has examples of some of this stuff. This is starting to seem academic at this point. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
I do, but I'll have to dig. It is all a couple years old (most has been posted as mp3's here before) and I have a different computer now...might be on an external HD at home.
Otherwise, as I hear examples from others, I'll post them. I know Jason Ricci does this over blues-type progressions frequntly. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
theory may get as complicated or simplified as you wish it to be. There are so many ways to look at the string of notes you are trying to describe - kinda like having a mobile hanging in the middle of the room with 9 balls hanging at different levels. It's the same mobile, but when you look at it from different angles or above or below, even though it is the same 9 balls, you may describe it differently depending on your vantage point.
For instance, half/whole tone scales are just 2 diminished scales a 1/2 step apart put together. ie, C diminished (C, Eb, Gb, Bbb -or enharmonically "A") plus C# diminished (C#, E, G, Bb).
C7+11 chord can be described as D/C7, or a D triad played above a C7 chord.
In using a melodic minor scale starting on the 7th (as Winslow described above), I think of it as half tone/whole tone for the first 4 notes followed by whole tone scale for the remaining 3.
Viewing the notes from different angles may give you a simpler way to understand what at first is somewhat complex in theory. I like the two chord approaches as outlined above.
For a great example of "hip 7th voicings" built using this 2 chord approach, go to a piano and play C7 (leaving out the 5th of the chord - or the "G" - the least important note) and with your right hand play an F# chord in second inversion. This is the cool -9+11 sound. Now, move the right hand voicing up a whole tone. This is the +9b13 sound. Now move the right hand up 1/2 step. This is the -9 13 sound.
I liked this way of getting my feet wet in cool chord voicings as it seemed to me a much easier to assimilate way to find quickly the notes used for these chord qualities.
One can approach scales used over these voicings in a similar manner, once again simplifying all that verbiage into something more manageable. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Mar 01, 2012 12:12 PM
@diggs - Jazz musicians use multiple scales in a tune all the time. Even some of the simpler Aebersold playalongs stress this. For instance, one of them has a chord progression that goes F minor, Eb minor, D minor, with the idea that you play the Dorian scale belonging to each chord.
Here's one recording I did playing al three scales over that Aebersold track:
---------- VOTE Winslow Yerxa for SPAH president, with L J Atkison for vice president Winslow for SPAH President (Facebook) Winslow4prez (Youtube) Chair, SPAH entertainment committee Chair, SPAH awards committee Member, SPAH convention planning committee Staff, SPAH Convention event operation
Since I don't have these tunes in front of me and it's been awhile since I played them so I'll give you an approach to improving on tunes. I think this works well for most tunes. The thing you need to do is analyze the chord changes and see what the tonality is. If you try to put a scale to every chord your phrasing will be dictated that way. Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7 all have Cmajor as a tonal center. My old teacher used to have me develop long lines over changes. So some harmony knowledge will go along way. This tune uses some of this and a bunch of other stuff. Don't forget to be melodic.
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Remember, first came the music, than came the theorists to try to explain how come it works.
Lots of players don't know theory, but sure can pick out some pretty notes - Chet Baker was one.
Ear training in order to recognize intervals may prove to be more valuable for some than spending book time learning the theory behind it. If you approach this stuff through strict study of scales and which ones to use over which chords, you may not be able to fly free over the changes as readily nor as soon. Not that both aren't important. Just try looking at the mobile from a different angle from time to time. ---------- The Iceman
Then you keep figuring out the changes and find more tonal centers. A tune like Invitation uses all twelve dominant chords. Then you learn how to keep your line going over the tonal center changes so as not to have your phrasing always dictated by the tonal change. There is no one pill fixes all. An artists approach is personal. I played one concert and the rule was to solo using the Harmelodic Concept. It takes time to develop your own style and it will change over time.
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
I just want to say "thank you" to everyone that has posted on this thread :) ---------- HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012 theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
I know this at nothing fancy but what I enjoy about using blues scale tones (as it pertains to playing the harmonica) is how you can adapt to the dorian, pentatonic and mixolydian modes simply by messin with some of the notes. I like how the blues scale is flexible and easy to make some cool and quick modulations when blowin the blues on the diatonic harp.
Last Edited by on Mar 01, 2012 6:37 PM
A few years back my Uncle sent me a puzzle for Christmas. It consisted of several blank wooden pieces of several different shapes. It came with cards of pictures you were supposed to make, using the different shapes. I loved it. It would take me nearly an hour to do a puzzle, but it was fun.
One day, my brother came over. He tried it. He could solve them in about 5 minutes. I never played them again.
There are a bunch of different lessons you can take from that. There is certainly something in there about following your own bliss and not comparing yourself to other people. You can read it the other way and say that unless you compare yourself to others you don't know how good you are. You can look at it and realize that we all learn differently.
Theory is easy if you are good at math. You can be good at music without being good at math if you can hear it. I've met people who can kind of play music without being able to really hear it. They do it the other way around, by approaching it as math. Ninja, I agree that learning the theory can help consolidate the knowledge underneath, but there can be huge difference in how different parts of the brain are wired in different people. If you simply say music theory is easy, you'll end up with people getting frustrated with the puzzle and putting it down. Depending on how your brain is wired it can be second nature or frustrating beyond belief.
So, I suggest, instead of saying it's easy, suggesting that like anything else it can be tough. I personally think it's worth the payoff, but if it was as tough for me as those puzzles, and I saw people saying it was a snap, I'd get pretty frustrated.
I took an IQ test when I was in 3rd or 4th grade. I did well on most of it, but there was a 'simple' part where you had to match one symbol with another. I could recognize the symbols okay, but my brain wasn't wired to track my eyes back to where I'd seen the symbol previously. I got a 20 on that part of the test. A 20. Forest Gump was what, 70ish?
If you get frustrated with theory, think about this. I worked on it and the last time I got tested I'd improved to 100 on that section. Average! But that's 80 points better than I started. You can get it, but don't listen to people who say it's easy, because your mileage will very. I didn't get it when I first was learning it. It took a few years of ignoring it, and then when I was exposed to it again some of that consolidation had set in and it started to make sense.
Here I am at home just jamming - trying to incorporate a number of scales listed above - and I am now realizing it isn't over a D7 chord, lol.
http://mikefugazzi.com/files/Scale_Demo.mp3
I tried to go minor pentatonic to blues to melodic minor to dorian, but the main riff is all 1 b3 4...not not even something with a 7th! Ugh!
It was hard trying to intentionally limit myself and try to move scale to scale...I failed epically. It works better if I just play. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
You make a good point, Nate. Theory does take time and study.
The good news is, it's optional. It's just a way of thinking about music that some of us find helpful, but many, many fine players don't really have any theory at all. And, I still submit, playing well is what's really hard.
"But many tunes don't stay in the same tonality all the way through, for instance:"
This is true of most blues, and I think the most important concept to the majority of the board here. Blues is typically diatonic, but even learning a couple scale options relative to 2nd, 1st, and 3rd can open up a whole new world. (Although I don't know if you'd say the tonal center technically shifts in a blues? The chord changes, though.)
My favorite blues comes from the people I hear using the harmony of the blues to their advantage. This can happen regardless of general approach - traditional diatonic, chromatic, modern, etc. Think of all the great turnaround lines that take advantage of this. A well played turnaround is often the most musically exciting part of a progression, IMO.
If all you learned was the Mixolydian and blues scales relative to a blues I IV V progression, you'd open up countless playing opportunities - regardless of overall ability.
After posting a clip, I tried to record a 12 bar I IV V and then play a solo that used several different scales. After the third try, I quit. I found it impossible to play a I IV V and not to slip into mixing all these things together - several scales and following the harmony.
As soon as I tried playing just the minor pentanonic, I switched to the blues scale. When I tried to just play the blues scale, I ended up playing Mixolydian. When I tried to just play BeBop Dominant, I played the blues scale. It was enlightening to try this and see my own issues and limitations.
