|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
circle of fifths tricks
circle of fifths tricks
Page:
1
mr_so&so
499 posts
Feb 23, 2012
3:33 AM
|
I just watched Michael Rubin's last Meat and Potatoes lesson #64 and had a weird "Rain Man" moment. Michael tells us that if you memorize the circle of fifths (which I did a few years ago), then you can easily find which are the I, IV and V chords in any key (which I knew). He then went on to say that if you know the note spacing of the major scale (W W H W W W H, where W=whole step, and H=half step), you can find the other notes of any major scale too. As Michael was explaining this, he had the circle of fifth up on the screen, and I was watching it as he talked.
My weird realization was this. I turns out that there is a simple counting pattern on the circle of fifths that gives you all the notes of any major scale. Here is how it works.
Start at your scale's root note, e.g. C. For whole steps, move two positions clockwise on the circle. For half steps, move across the diameter of the circle, then move one position clockwise. So starting from C we move a whole step (W) clockwise to D to find the second, then W to E for the third, then jump across the circle on a diameter to Bb and a half step clockwise (H) to F for the fourth. Then W to G, W to A, W to B, then across and H to C again.
This works for all the major scales, where you start from any given position on the circle.
I suspect that if you can remember the circle in its clock pattern, and become familiar with the counting pattern I described, it will become a very quick way to figure out the notes of any major scale without having to memorize each one.
----------
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2012 3:39 AM
|
timeistight
378 posts
Feb 23, 2012
3:50 AM
|
Faster than that (for me):- Find your tonic note (i.e., the "1" of your scale).
- Add the five notes immediately clockwise and the one note immediately counterclockwise from the tonic.
- Arrange the notes alphabetically from the tonic.
The only trick to this is remembering to use sharp enharmonics for the sharp keys.
For an example, let's spell B major:- Start with B, the tonic.
- Add the five notes immediately clockwise (F#, C#, G#, D# and A#) and the one note immediately counterclockwise (E) from the tonic.
- Arrange the notes alphabetically from the tonic: B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#, B
|
mr_so&so
500 posts
Feb 23, 2012
12:19 PM
|
timeistight, cool. Once I looked at it longer, I saw the positional pattern you describe. So it is dead easy to remember the scales this way. I guess my counting thing is a way to remember what you said :)
----------
|
timeistight
379 posts
Feb 23, 2012
12:51 PM
|
Here's another trick: the order of #'s follows the circle clockwise from F to B; the order of flats follows the circle counter-clockwise from B to F.
What does this mean? It means that all sharp keys have an F# in their major scale; all sharp keys except G have an F# and a C# in their major scale; all sharp keys except G and D have an F#, a C# and a G# in their major scale; etc. Same thing on the flat keys starting from Bb.
Once you know that, if you remember the number of sharps or flats a major scale has, you can spell it.
The sharp keys are:- G: 1 sharp
- D: 2 sharps
- A: 3 sharps
- E: 4 sharps
- B: 5 sharps
- F#: 6 sharps
- C#: 7 sharps
The flat keys are:- F: 1 flat
- Bb: 2 flats
- Eb: 3 flats
- Ab: 4 flats
- Db: 5 flats
- Gb: 6 flats
- Cb: 7 flats
See how those lists follow the circle, too? Sharp keys clock wise, flat keys counterclockwise.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2012 12:53 PM
|
nacoran
5290 posts
Feb 23, 2012
1:10 PM
|
I always used the mnemonic for the order of flats and sharps, (Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle- for the sharps, or Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father- for flats) knowing that C at the top has no flats or sharps. It works, but I don't think it works as quickly as your ways. Just a testament to how fundamental patterns are to music. :)
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
Gerry
1 post
Feb 23, 2012
11:36 PM
|
Same here but I know it as,
"Funky Cows Get Down And Eat Breakfast"
(I also add "Fish" on the end for an F#)
|
laurent2015
6 posts
Feb 23, 2012
9:15 PM
|
"Start with B, the tonic.
Add the five notes immediately clockwise (F#, C#, G#, D# and A#) and the one note immediately counterclockwise (E) from the tonic.
Arrange the notes alphabetically from the tonic: B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#, B"
Can a trick like that be found for minor (natural) mode (based on the fifths circle)?
Without heavy thinking about that, if we start from the root note, less 3 half tone, and follow the same pattern, thus C becomes A.
I didn't try it because I'm starting to have a nap.
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 10:22 AM
|
mr_so&so
501 posts
Feb 23, 2012
10:56 PM
|
Laurent got me thinking again, which is dangerous, and I went Googling for some answers. I didn't find the answer to his question, but did find a bunch more graphical patterns (including the one I stumbled on, #3), here. Some of them are pretty useful too. The chord ones are particularly interesting to me.
----------
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2012 11:26 PM
|
hvyj
2201 posts
Feb 23, 2012
11:07 PM
|
Best circle of 5ths trick: The first 4 notes of each major scale as you go around the circle of 5ths are identical to the last 4 notes of the immediately preceding scale.
So, the last 4 notes of the C major scale are the first 4 note of the G major scale. The first 4 notes of the D major scale are the same as the last 4 notes of the G major scale. The first 4 notes of the A major scale are the same as the last 4 notes of the D major scale, and so on.
These 4 note groupings are called "tetrachords." Learn 6 tetrachords and you know all 12 major scales.
|
mr_so&so
502 posts
Feb 23, 2012
11:43 PM
|
@Laurent, turns out the natural minor scale (1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7) is nicely laid out on the circle of fifths. All notes are side-by-side, just like the major scales. But the tonic note has 4 notes to the left of it and and two to the right. Arrange them in order and there you go. You can think of this graphically as taking the diameter line that defines the Cmaj scale (from F to B) and rotating it counter-clockwise by 90 degrees to get the notes of the C natural minor scale.
----------
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 9:17 AM
|
timeistight
381 posts
Feb 24, 2012
8:16 AM
|
You can do that for all the modes if you remember this order: Lydian, Ionian (aka Major), Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian (aka Natural Minor), Phrygian, Locrian. I think of it as the brightest to darkest sounding modes in order.
Here's how to spell them:- Lydian: tonic plus the next six notes clockwise
- Ionian/Major: tonic plus one note counterclockwise and six notes clockwise
- Mixolydian: tonic plus two notes counterclockwise and four notes clockwise
- Dorian: tonic plus three notes counterclockwise and three notes clockwise
- Aeolian/Natural Minor: tonic plus four notes counterclockwise and two notes clockwise
- Phrygian: tonic plus five notes counter clockwise and one note clockwise
- Locrian: tonic plus six notes counterclockwise
Or look at it this way: take any contiguous seven notes from the circle and give each of them a turn at being the tonic and you end up with seven modes in the Lydian to Locrian order.
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 8:16 AM
|
wolfkristiansen
107 posts
Feb 24, 2012
12:35 AM
|
I know this isn't quite on topic, but...
I've never thought about any of this, ever, and I've been playing on stage for over three decades. My ears tell we what harmonica to pick, and what notes to play. Are they sharps? Are they flats? I don't know.
My ears also tell me when to play in a different position than my usual second. Even if it's a song I'm hearing for the first time, jamming on stage. First, third and fifth position, mostly, but sometimes fourth.
I brought it up because I'm interested if there are others who have given only a passing thought to theory, like me, but have survived.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
|
mr_so&so
503 posts
Feb 24, 2012
1:00 AM
|
@wolf We have gone over the debate between "feeling" and "knowing" many times. I agree that thinking too much about music theory while you are trying to play is not conducive to playing well. But everyone approaches music from their own perspective. For me, I have gained tremendous confidence from learning a bit of theory. For example, how to use the circle of fifths to pick the right harp for the music key and position I'm playing in. The question is how much is enough theory? Your mileage will vary. I suspect that you may be fairly exceptional in your abilities to intuit what you do.
----------
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 9:28 AM
|
mr_so&so
504 posts
Feb 24, 2012
9:14 AM
|
Back to the circle of fifths madness. By the way, the full and half-tone counting method that I described in my first post also works for any scale that can be described (or approximated) as a subset of the chromatic scale. You just have to know the spacings between the notes in semitones. If there is an odd number of semitones, do the jump-across-the-circle thing once.
I just worked out the note placements for the blues scale (and minor pentatonic scale), and those notes also lay out in a nice memorable pattern on the circle of fifths:
Find your tonic note, then the minor pentatonic scale notes are all bunched together, three to the left and one to the right on the circle.
To make up the blues scale you need to add in the flat fifth as well. This is a tritone (3 whole tones) up from the tonic, which is opposite from it on the circle (on a diameter).
For example, the C blues scale consists of C, Eb/D#, F, F#/Gb, G, Bb/A#
So far I've gotten along just fine using scale degrees instead of note names, BTW, but being able to quickly name the scale notes comes in handy when you want to read or write music, or when you have to talk to fellow musicians who do.
----------
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 12:35 PM
|
mr_so&so
505 posts
Feb 24, 2012
10:16 AM
|
I suppose it is also worth repeating the trick for determining the harp key, playing position, or music key, given any two of those (this is why I learned the circle of fifths):
For given music key and position:
For music in A, what harp do you play for third position? Find the music key on the circle, then count around to your position number going counter-clockwise. E.g., Find A (that is first position), then go counter-clockwise two steps to G. Play a G harp.
For given harp and music key:
If you only have a C harp and the music is in E, what position do you need to play? Find your harp key on the circle then move clockwise, counting positions (where your harp key is first position) around to the music key. So, 5th position.
For given position and harp:
You are jamming away in third position on your F harp. What key is the music you are playing? Find your harp key on the circle and count clockwise to your position number (where your harp key is first position). So you are playing in G.
----------
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 10:21 AM
|
electricwitness
25 posts
Feb 24, 2012
3:01 AM
|
mnemonic device for the modes: I Don't Play Like My Aunt Loise. and to find the intervals of the modes start first with Ionian (major scale), R (Root) W W H W W W H. Next to find the Second mode Dorian, remove the first interval of Ionian and place it at the end, you get R W H W W W H W, follow that pattern for all the modes.
R=Root
1. RWWHWWWH 1. Ionian
2. RWHWWWHW 2. Dorian
3. RHWWWHWW 3. Phrygian
4. RWWWHWWH 4. Lydian
5. RWWHWWHW 5. Myxolidian
6. RWHWWHWW 6. Aeolian
7. RHWWHWWW 7. Locrian
This pattern is particularly helpful on guitar if you know the major scale pattern. Simply place the Root note on the step of the Ionian scale (1-7) that corresponds to the mode you want, then follow the pattern from that point.
Example - (aye carumba! cant seem to get the diagrams to line up right sorry!)
...1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = Ionian Interval #s
R W W H W W W H = Key of C Ionian (1)
C D E F G A B C
...2 3 4 5 6 7 1 = Ionian Interval #s
R W H W W W H W = Key of C Dorian (2)
C D Eb F G A Bb C
....3 4 5 6 7 1 2 = Ionian Interval #s
R H W W W H W W = Key of C Phrygian (3)
C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
Etc...
Hope that makes some sense... hahaha
this is a fun thread
----------
electricwitness.com
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 3:16 AM
|
nacoran
5296 posts
Feb 24, 2012
3:38 AM
|
And for remembering the circle-
Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go (flats)
Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go (naturals)
Circle of Fifths (naturals)
Just put C at the top.
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father (flats)
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle (sharps)
(I like that one because if you can remember it once you know the other one two, since it's just backwards.)
With just those 3 sentences, and knowing C is on top you can basically build the circle from scratch, including the number of sharps or flats for each key. By counting around the circle you can figure out all the positions too. If you can remember that A is the relative minor of C major you can use the same technique to fill in the natural minor scale inside the circle. It's all about knowing a handful of patterns. :)
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
Andrew
1573 posts
Feb 24, 2012
4:18 AM
|
The shit you have to go through when you can't play the piano, Jesus!
----------
Andrew.
-----------------------------------------
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000874537399
|
laurent2015
7 posts
Feb 24, 2012
11:29 AM
|
How lucky you are, you, using English language.
Try to find a mnemo sentence with this:
Fa Do Sol Re La Mi Si (connecting to
F C G D A E B !!!!!!!!!!!)
Seriously, I'm sure the secrets of that fifths circle are going to be revealed, I just learnt a lot about it, thanks to this thread: you are better than all those hieroglyphs deciphers.
I think however that Wolfkristiansen is a bit right, playing with a background of feelings and not fighting with rules.
Don't you think there are so many exceptions (sometimes a mark of genious) to the musical rules that you are justified to wonder where are the rules.
Actually, I believe that human musical creativity cannot be managed by rules, except harmony, which is also something very subjective.
A good music is the one that's pleasing, or better: surprising. Isn't it?
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2012 11:39 AM
|
nacoran
5308 posts
Feb 24, 2012
12:40 PM
|
Laurent, the funny thing is, when you look at a lot of stuff that 'just sounds good' where the people didn't know the rules and actually look at it, often it ends up following the rules after all!
Of course, there are rules for how to 'break' the rules too. For instance, you can modulate in a song between two close keys very easily, (C to G for instance) but if you jump too far things can get messy (C to C# for instance).
Playing a little piano, even if it's just enough to play scales, really does help with theory a lot. Visualizing this stuff on a piano is WAY easier than visualizing it on harmonica.
You can do some neat tricks by knowing the rules too. If you use really large intervals you can make something sound spacey and futuristic (think the Star Trek theme). Just knowing that trick can save you a lot of time if you happen to need to write something scifi on the fly. Country sounding, bluesy sounding, Celtic sounding, Middle Eastern, Indian... if you know which notes of the scale to play and which to skip you can improvise on the fly. (You can get a pretty neat eastern European/Turkish sounding scale on a chromatic harmonica by just playing blow notes and working the slide. Every note will sound right as long as you don't draw. (I don't know if it's technically the correct scale, but it sure works in a pinch.)
We had a bass player, who ultimately gave up. He wanted to do everything by ear. He wouldn't even memorize the major scale or the names of his strings. We had to teach him every single song note by note. He hated theory with a pathological passion. I tried to teach him to play that tune from The Sound of Music, 'Doe a deer...' as soon as he realized I was trying to sneak some theory in there...
I think actually, that's a good way to do it though. Scales are important, but a song that uses all the notes in a scale can teach you the same thing. It's like the typing phrase 'The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.' It's a whole lot more fun than typing abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz, but it accomplishes the same goal. I've meant to sit down and learn different basic rhythm patterns that way, but have never really gotten around to it, so I basically do it mostly by ear.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
Gerry
2 posts
Feb 24, 2012
3:35 PM
|
Slightly OT but I think a useful piece of theory is chord construction.
Learning a few extended arpeggios can really help when improvising against 9ths, m7b5, etc...
|
laurent2015
8 posts
Feb 25, 2012
8:31 AM
|
Nate,
I absolutely agree with your lines above.
What I attempted to tell -and that's indisputable- was that sounds existed before the rules and chords existed before the rules as well (at least from the beginning of 20th century).
Rules make possible to go further in music but I think we dont'have to keep sticked to them.
|
timeistight
383 posts
Feb 25, 2012
1:00 AM
|
These aren't "rules" any more than the law of gravity is a "law" -- they're just patterns that emerge when you have a system of twelve equally spaced notes in an octave.
They're aren't any rules in music, just traditions and physics. You don't forfeit the game if you ignore them.
|
laurent2015
9 posts
Feb 25, 2012
2:46 AM
|
Scratching and banging my head, I find a new mnemo sentence for intervals:
LOst Philanderers And Dolls Meet In LYrics
25 26 36 37 47 48 58
the numbers are positions of half steps in the scale, I found the progression was easy.
I succeed in remembering this about 30 seconds.
I tel you guys, revolution has been starting up!
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2012 2:56 AM
|
MP
2032 posts
Feb 25, 2012
4:54 AM
|
@ Wolf,
yeah, i'm like you. or maybe just too lazy to think.
i would just play whatever worked. for three decades. i didn't think about the circle of 5ths till much later on.
what worked was, for instance- i want to be loved by muddy. C. it is first but i didn't care. it is a great tune and i play the shit out of it. C harp in C
this tune along w/ jimmy rodgers Ludella and is the very essence of first pos. blues harp. Slim Harpo
and Jimmy Reed do need to be mentioned but man! this tune!
walters juke is second like most blues. A harp in E
i'm w/ billy branch on this one. every time i listen to it i find something excitingly new.
walters i got to go is 3rd G harp in A. watch out for
landmines trying second pos notes in this one.
in a nutshell i learned the first three positions right off the bat, not knowing the how and why of anything. unfortunately most people don't have a natural ear for pitch. i got lucky.
perhaps this kind of thinking (non thinking) gives harp players a bad name. it is the basis of 'biker harp' and you might wind up a slave to second position. i don't recomend it. i feel kinda stupid
actually. but on the other hand...mmm...meh.
i just knew that a minor song like 'summertime' would be third so i'd fish around till i found it and it never takes long to find a tonic note on a harp unless the tonic is a bend.
all the terminology came very late for me. since i repair harps i know every note lay out in the major keys and can rattle 'em off purty easily.
don't get me wrong. i welcome all my new found knowledge of how and why. especially the nine other positions i'd never heard of.
a circle of fifths chart would have been great early on. but...whatever.
it is best to know what the hell you are doing so you can comunicate it to the bassist and guitarist and pianist etc.
----------
EDIT: Wolf, i just noticed we both said three decades. i'm 55.
how old are you?
MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2012 5:00 AM
|
Post a Message
|
