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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Using two mics...
Using two mics...
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HawkeyeKane
713 posts
Feb 11, 2012
8:53 AM
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For quite a while now there's been some bitching amongst my band regarding my mic'ing and volume habits...
The drummer has actually gotten it in his head that when I play my fully cupped bullet directly in front of my vocal microphone, I'm basically double mic'ing my harp because he seems to think the vocal mic picks up the sound of the harp too in the midst of all the loud guitar, bass, drums, vocals, etc. A virtual acoustic impossibility, but he swears up and down that it's happpening.
But the biggest backlash from my bandmates comes from another issue that is totally valid. When I need virgin-clean tone for song of the folk/country/southern rock persuasion, my tube amp just can't deliver it due to its power sag and natural distortion. So what I've been doing is play on my vocal mic and try my best to "play the mic" and back off when my harp gets out of proportion in the mix. But try as I may, they still always say I'm too loud.
So last night, I tried something different. In addition to my bullet->pedal->Kalamazoo->PA rig, I also ran my Transcontinental dynamic vocal mic straight into a PA channel and played harp on that. This worked farily well, I managed to get the virgin tone I wanted, and the boys didn't fuss. But....
I still couldn't hear myself well in the monitors, let alone get myself across on the mains. Obviously, I need to get an inline v/c from Greg to help me on this. Other thing is that the TC mic's on/off switch pops pretty loudly, but I have a little Emerson unidirectional karaoke mic I'm gonna try tonight and see if that doesn't pop as badly.
Anyone else use two mics like this? Any tips I might find useful? Or am I really over-complicating my life on stage with this method?
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2012 9:13 AM
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eharp
1711 posts
Feb 11, 2012
9:21 AM
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i do what you were doing with your vocal mic. if i want a clean sound i put my bullet down and use my nady bushman torpedo mic.
no one in the band has said anything. yet.
i try to adjust my distance from the mic to increase/decrease the volume.
i will sometimes switch back and forth between the 2 mics for a couple of songs.
on occasion i will not cup the bullet and play thru both mics at the same time, and sing thru the bullet.
you might want to consider this for a personal monitor. it can be attached to your mic stand. it would mean another cord going from the pa, though.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/behringer-eurolive-b205d-active-pa-monitor-speaker
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2012 9:21 AM
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rbeetsme
619 posts
Feb 11, 2012
9:31 AM
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I saw a guy run his vocal mic into an inexpensive acoustic amp aimed back at him on the front of the stage. The acoustic amp has a line out running to the PA. He could turn up his amp and basically use it as a monitor and the audience never really heard it. I might try that.
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Kingley
1774 posts
Feb 11, 2012
9:33 AM
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Pretty much every blues harp player I know of uses two mics. Most use a cupped mic into an amp for their "electric" sound and play off a vocal mic on a stand into the PA for an "acoustic" sound. The vocal mic thing is easy to learn. You just have to experiment a little with volume and tone settings to get it to sound nice. Then just simply learn how to vary your distance from it for a range of tones, volumes and effects. I don't see the point of using a cupped clean mic for an acoustic sound as you are losing a lot of very useable and important techniques. Especially when playing blues.
Now I could be way off the mark here and if I am then just ignore what I'm saying.......It sounds to me like your drummer (and maybe the others) might not want a harp player in the band. Maybe they just haven't got the balls to tell you straight out and hope by constantly "moaning about stuff" that you get the hint.
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LittleBubba
181 posts
Feb 11, 2012
9:46 AM
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I'm with Kingley on this, as far as the technique. If you haven't been accustomed to playing into a vocal mic, it will take some experimentation, and it will cause you to re-evaluate your approach to singing into a mic. It helps to not have your vocal mic too "hot" so that it doesn't exacerbate volume changes with the harp.. but then you gotta make sure you're singin' right on the mic and not gettin' sloppy with that technique.
You might wanna jus' talk about this with some of your playin' acquaintances; alotta guys deal with this same issue.
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LSC
166 posts
Feb 11, 2012
9:52 AM
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IMHO, you probably are getting the harp down the vocal mic. Even the most perfect cupping technique does not make the instrument silent. And since you say playing acoustically the harp is too loud I'd say you've got the vocal mic pretty hot. Simple way to prove or disprove, at a sound check try playing in your normal way and have somebody stand out front while someone mutes or turns off the vocal mic then back on. If they hear a difference, debate solved.
"Too loud" is so subjective it's a little difficult to offer a solution. I can be a pretty loud singer but I also use a lot of dynamics and my mic technique is pretty good. I usually don't have any problem with playing harp down the same mic, unless the vocal mic is too hot. In which event it will be too hot for the vocal as well. It's usually a matter of backing off the gain, as opposed to the volume/level. Also a bit of compromise in the EQ can be useful. Sometimes it's not actually the volume of the harp but the frequency. A bit of top can make the vocals crisper but it boosts that frequency which is most annoying in the harmonica. Often it's better to take something out rather than to put it in. Rolling off some of the lower mids, depending on what frequency it's set at, will also make the vocal crisper without adding the nasty for the harp. And I'm talking pretty small gnat hair adjustments here.
A V/C on the Transcontinental is not IMO the best way. A $25 mic is still going to sound like a $25 mic. You don't mention what vocal mic you use. I used the ubiquitous Shure SM58 for decades without any issues. However, about 3 years ago I discovered the Shure Beta 87a. It's a condenser and requires phantom power but most mixers have that these days. It's not cheap, about $260 retail but you can find them 2nd hand for $175 or less. I use it all the time, singing and playing harp down the same mic for my acoustic shows as well as with the band when I'm going for that Lazy Lester et al thing. It's fantastic. It's usually set just about flat but depending on the room once in a blue moon I might have to back off the top just a tad so the harp doesn't bite too much, usually doesn't affect the vocal.
Check out all the youtube videos and you will find loads of guys using the same mic for both vocal/harp. It ain't the tools. It's how they're used.
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LSC
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LittleBubba
182 posts
Feb 11, 2012
11:14 AM
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Good breakdown, LSC. You mention the subjectivity of volume and it reminded me that there are differences of opinions about where people want the harp in the mix.
It amazes me how many times I've been listening to recordings and noticed that a guitar or harp might be way back in the mix but it remains effective.
I've had friends do live acoustic recordings of gigs I've played, just to hear where the harp really is in the mix out in the crowd, amid the noise. Listening to these later has been educational at times. I've found that at times, I have been too loud in the mix when I thought I wasn't, and vice versa.
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Tuckster
961 posts
Feb 11, 2012
11:41 AM
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I'm a little incredulous that you're too loud through the 'Zoo,unless the band is really good at controlling their volume. I have encountered musician that think harp should be low in the mix. I say no-it's a lead instrument! I'll ride my VC to comp. LSC gave you some great advice on sniffing out that vocal mic.
eharp- Have you had personal experience with that Behringer or know a harp player who has? I'm concerned about getting feedback.
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MP
2017 posts
Feb 11, 2012
12:28 PM
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hey hawk,
last night i had one of those fun gigs where you have 15 minutes to set-up right after another band and don't know the board.
to make it even more frustrating i had to use a flashlight( a flashlight at every gig is a MUST for me) to see the controls whilst leaning over a stack of..stuff. oh, i was told not to turn down the house music while setting levels either.
my problems were the harp being too soft through my vocal mic for the drummer to hear and since it was a tiny stage getting cymbal crashes to the head.
revenge?
good advice here and LSC nails it.
after three decades of live playing all i can say is there are general rules but no fix-all for every situ.
i would just say work on useing the vocal mic. proximity is very important. i rarely cup the vocal mic and back off if i can't turn it down. try to adjust the vocal mics highs and mids so it works with both your voice and the harp without ruining the vocal sound or having a shrill, irritating, acoustic harp sound.
take care. mark
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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timeistight
327 posts
Feb 11, 2012
12:59 PM
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Maybe the drummer just doesn't like anything in his monitor but vocal. If that's the case, the acoustic-amp solution might make you both happy.
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eharp
1712 posts
Feb 11, 2012
1:01 PM
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my bass player bought it about a week ago.
he went from his computer to the mixing board then to the behringer.
it was loud.
i grabbed a harp and mic, plugged in and started to play.
no feedback and i was right in front of it.
spent a couple of seconds to dial it in...
if i decide i need a monitor, i'm going with it.
it could easily be used for a coffee house setting, or busking. (it has 3 inputs)
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MrVerylongusername
2203 posts
Feb 11, 2012
1:14 PM
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Yup! LSC nails it.
Instrument amps often have a pronounced beam of sound, (even a low wattage one) make sure your amp isn't projecting that beam directly into the vocal mic.
Get yourself a good quality vocal mic with a better frequency response. Often being heard in the mix is about upper frequency "sparkle", not just pushing the volume.
Learn how to set the correct gain on the board for each input:
Set everything to unity - input gain, EQ, sliders, groups (if you're using them) and master sliders.
Using the loudest expected signal (so loudest settings for an instrument, or if its a vocal, part of a song where the singer is really pushing it) adjust the gain until the meter lights enter the red clipping zone. Just clipping is fine, maxed out all the time is bad).
Adjust the house volume level with the power amp controls.
'Ring out' the PA - use the graphic EQ to notch out problematic feedback frequencies. Graphic EQs are not for making smiley faces.
Make EQ and mixing adjustments on each channel.
A bad gain structure introduces unnecessary hiss and distortion into your sound and can damage the power amps and drivers.
EQ and levels can change dramatically between soundcheck and the the point where the room is full of punters. Having a soundman out front to make those changes is really useful.
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Greg Heumann
1476 posts
Feb 11, 2012
4:18 PM
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For $54.95 you can get an inline volume control for low impedance mics from me. Once you have one you'll never go back. You might go forward though. I play and sing through an Ultimate 58. When I sing I like to eat the mic because the proximity effect adds a little bass and makes me sound better, I think. But that means the mic is NOT very hot through the PA. If, when I play harp, I put a full wah-cup between me and the mic - it isn't loud enough. So I turn it up for harp solos. The reverse also happens - people sing 6" to a foot from the mic - so it is very hot. Then they cup the thing with a harp and it makes people's ears bleed. Having a volume control on the vocal mic is a simple fix for either situation.
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/Greg
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joek18
10 posts
Feb 11, 2012
8:06 PM
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For the past few years, I've alternated between a Johnny Cash tribute band and a Chicago Blues group. Kingley has it right regarding technique: cup for dirty tone, vocal mic on a stand for clean.
One more point though: you need to have your levels set by somebody, an objective ear, in front of the stage. Certainly, your drummer can't set anything like accurate levels from behind the kit. Find a good PA tech and work with him for a series of gigs. You'll be able to preset most levels even when house size changes - other than huge barns or outdoor gigs.
It's worth getting a pro to tech your levels for truly useful balance.
My two cents.
joek18
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jbone
774 posts
Feb 11, 2012
8:43 PM
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regardless of what gear you use, you sometimes run across one guy you manage to piss off once. from that point on you have an uphill battle with an attitude of a band mate.
my hearing is not what it should be thanks to factory floors, tool shops, and loudass concerts. depending on stage volume i can sometime not hear myself at all in the mix. the tendency early on was, play louder so i could hear myself right at the point of making the sound. which does NOT work. harps die quickly and the results are nonexistent.
using a vocal mic for harp is a tough one for me. i don't know about anyone else but my voice settings in a p.a. are about 180 degrees from my harp needs in a p.a. mic. my voice has a lot of bass so i like to cut the bass some in a vocal channel, bump the effects a little, and get some gain in there to pick up nuance. but for harp i drop highs and gain way down, give it a bit of effect, and up the bass. obviously one can't be tweaking a channel all the time. if you can get a dedicated mic channel in the p.a. and set it for harp only, and use a mic with a vol pot or an on/off this may work out better. and maybe staying farther back from the vocal mic when blowing harp in your bullet would insure less or no bleed-over.
it's a constant adventure.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
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HawkeyeKane
714 posts
Feb 15, 2012
8:53 AM
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WOW! Lots of reponses!
@eharp
I've considered a Torpedo from time to time, but I've never taken the plunge. A personal monitor WOULD help, but in this particular band, it's just one more thing to wire up, and we run our own sound, which is probably a huge contributing factor to the problems I'm experiencing. I switch back and forth between dynamic and bullet on some songs too, but not a lot.
@rbeets
Yeah, I've thought about an acoustic amp too. But again, when you're running your own sound, you have to prioritize what you tote and setup and tear down. Another major piece of amplifying equipment just doesn't seem to be in the cards right now.
@Kingley
Very true about the cupping technique. I tried the other mic like I said I would, and it worked MUCH better with no pop on the switch and the uni polarity. On the point of harp-desire within the band, I don't really think I have much to worry about on that detail. My bandleader has turned down a couple of guitarists who tried to muscle their way in, and a sax player who has sat in with us a couple times because he prefers having the rarity of a harp player in the mix rather than the more common guitar and/or sax.
@LSC
We pretty much solved the pickup issue from the vocal. Yes, the vocal mic's setting for my actual vocals is hot for harp, but the main problem was the rooms we'd been playing for the most part were small, and thus we didn't run designated monitors and instead turned one outboard speaker inward to face the band. This caused the drummer to go ape about it.
@Tuckster
I didn't say the 'Zoo rig was causing volume issues, just the clean tone on the vocal.
@Greg
Yeah, I probably will get one of your inline v/c's. It will solve a great deal of issues, regardless of what mic I'm using.
I know, I probably should invest in a quality vocal mic, but as everyone here probably knows about me by now, I try to coax good stuff out of the inexpensive underdogs. Just something of an obsession of mine.
BTW, the mic I used Saturday night (the Emerson I mentioned), I picked up in-store at Sears for 8 bucks, but that was during the Christmas season so it was probably marked down. It's avaliable online for 15.
Emerson M189 Professional Dynamic Microphone with Detachable Cord
I'm liking it so far, and will keep y'all posted on how the sitch develops with it.
@joek18
Believe you me, I'm ALL for having someone in front running the sound. There's no question about it, that's the way to go. But that does cost some money, and that factor is out of my hands and in the hands of our band leader. With some of the accolades that our band was awarded over the last few months, I'm praying that he decides to capitalize a bit on it and start charging a bit more so he can start hiring a tech.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2012 9:11 AM
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