Zadozica
169 posts
Feb 08, 2012
12:56 PM
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Just bought my first MB and love it. After a maybe an hour of actual playing, the 3d starts to stick and won't play. I open it up and the f'n reed plates riveted to the comb!
Now I have to start breaking sh!t to fix it?
What a waste of $40!
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Adam Hamil
25 posts
Feb 08, 2012
1:01 PM
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Send it to Hohner. They'll repair/replace it for free. all you have to do is go to their website, print out the warranty form, mail it and you're harp. their turnaround is pretty fast too.
BTW: those are nails, not rivets. they can be removed and reattached if you know how to do it right.
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C. Adam Hamil
Free Reed Instrument Technician
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isaacullah
1786 posts
Feb 08, 2012
1:01 PM
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It is not riveted to the comb. It is simply nailed to the comb. It has always been this way - this is the way of the Marine Band. It is why many people choose to play Special 20's or other types of harmonicas where the reed plates are attached by screws. You can pry off the reedplate with a knife. Search the archives here, and look for videos on YouTube (there are many, but Adam has one in his first series). You will find help.
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WinslowYerxa
181 posts
Feb 08, 2012
2:16 PM
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Did you try tapping the moisture out of the holes? (Hold the harmoica holes own in one hand and tap gently against the palm of the other hand 9which can also hold a cloth or paper towel to absorb the moisture if you don't want to get your hand wet.)) After an hour, breath moisture can clog the reedslot.
Seomthing (hair, bit of debris) might have lodged between the edge of the reed and the slot. *Gently* lift the reed away from the slot and run a piece of paper along the slot from the riveted end out toward the free end.
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Zadozica
170 posts
Feb 08, 2012
2:21 PM
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Nails? You don't say.
Okay, now that you told me that I took it apart and fixed it. The reed was slightly out of alignment. It is back to normal.
I now love this Hohner again!
Winslow, thanks for the suggestion. I am thinking that it was the slapping that might have pulled the reed slightly out in the first place. Need to slap lighter.
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hvyj
2096 posts
Feb 08, 2012
2:23 PM
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@Zadozica: In my experience MBs are total pieces of crap. If you like that type of harp, spend a little more money and get a Marine Band Deluxe which is actually a pretty decent harp, especially if you put a good quality comb on it.
You should be able to clear the jammed 3D reed with a feeler gauge without removing the reed plate from the comb. Use the thinnest shim and move it under the reed. Then move it on each side of the reed to center the reed in the slot. This will probably clear your jam. MBs are crappy little harps with poor construction and are prone to jams. I am mystified as to why they are so popular.
EDIT: 2 posts including your last one hit while I was screwing around with the CAPTCHA code
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2012 2:26 PM
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kudzurunner
2982 posts
Feb 08, 2012
3:45 PM
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@hvyj: In my experience, people who claim that MBs are total pieces of crap simply don't have the lip strength and control needed to get a good sound out of them. Nat Riddles could make beautiful music out of MBs that I was SURE were pieces of crap. I had a box full of what he called "trash harps": MBs that fell into the bottom 1/3 in terms of playability and quality control issues. He made them sing. Once I saw and heard that, up close and personal, I decided that I needed to work a little harder. And that hard work made a difference.
Every single note that I play on every Satan and Adam album, including BACK IN THE GAME, was played on a stock Marine Band harp. With two exceptions ("Poor Boy" and "The Entertainer"), every single note I played on KICK AND STOMP was played on a stock MB.
In other words, I disagree with your assessment. MBs are good harps. You just need to work a little harder. Not everybody wants to.
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2012 3:46 PM
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hvyj
2098 posts
Feb 08, 2012
4:06 PM
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Adam, I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but if you like the sound of an MB, you can get it from the MBD without the additional work, attendant discomfort and unreliability of a regular MB. Why work that hard if there's a better alternative to produce the same result? Of course, I suppose having to put in the extra effort can be inspirational since it's probably enough to give a man the blues.
Be that as it may, I think you have a great sound. Different from my sound, but a great sound that is identifiably yours. I admire your playing a great deal..
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Kingley
1763 posts
Feb 08, 2012
10:30 PM
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hvyj - Whilst the Marine Band Deluxe is a pretty good it simply doesn't have the same tone that a Marine Band 1896 has. Which is obvious to any long term Marine Band player. In over 20 years of playing I simply haven't found a make of harp that can compare tonally to a Marine Band 1896.
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DevonTom
187 posts
Feb 08, 2012
10:35 PM
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Have to agree with Adam and Kingley here. Even though I play Special 20's (as I play rack harp and they are the best for that, in overall ease of playing )... the Marine Band is the best sounding harp, always has been.
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2012 10:36 PM
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hvyj
2099 posts
Feb 09, 2012
3:32 AM
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Obviously, this is subjective, but, personally, I never found the MB tone to be particularly appealing. So, this affects my level of tolerance for the poor construction issues. I very much prefer the darker sound of a harp with full length unvented covers.
But a whole lot of players apparently do like the distinctive MB tone. I guess it depends on the sound you are trying to achieve. Despite Adam's exhortations, I do not like fighting the instrument I'm trying to play. Maybe this makes me a wuss, but, IMHO, there's other ways to strengthen chops. But, YMMV.
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2012 5:56 AM
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jbone
771 posts
Feb 09, 2012
4:02 AM
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i had a couple of customized mb's about 10 years ago which i wish i had kept a hold of. it was a tumultuous time in my life. things tended to get lost. i was glad to get single again after a wild and weird adventure with a particular female and her kid.
what i remember of those mb customs is, they played very easily and sounded great. a high end customizer had built them from the ground up in trade for a bunch of assorted harps with blown out reeds.
i'm with hwyj here, i'd rather devote my efforts to playing well on a harp that has less challenges. my case has several brands and models in it which i play often. when i can afford and there's a new and improved harp out there i try and get one just to see how it stands up against the others.
to me one of the most similar to mb harps is the manji and i like tham very well for some things- 2nd position and 1st position mostly. their volume is very good and single note tone is good for me. for octaves and chords in 3rd i don't like them as much, they sound harsher than i like.
i think it's a shame that hohner has been so late to the ball with improvements to the mb platform. some of my efforts to seal a mb comb improved their performance so much i blew out the 4 or 5 draw much faster than before! this was prior to admitting my breath force was too much and addressing that issue, to both improve my sound and to extend the life of my harps.
these days a reed plate set costs as much as a harp used to cost, at least for the models i was used to. and the mid and high end suzukis are far out of my reach. so reed plates it is, come on tax return!
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Libertad
34 posts
Feb 09, 2012
4:30 AM
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I dont have the experience of a lot of people so please feel free to ignore this. I do love the tone of the MB but got a bit fed up with the quality control/lottery out of the box issues. I have recently got into some simple customisation and am experimenting with changing combs. But for a similar tone/great out of the box experience I would recommend the Suzuki Harpmaster. With its precision engineering and welded reeds it is IMHO very hard to beat. Similar sound/less hassle/Same price here in the UK
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chromaticblues
1172 posts
Feb 09, 2012
4:50 AM
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Marine Band Deluxes and Crossovers DO NOT SOUND LIKE MARINE BANDS!
The coverplates are different, the comb is different and The reedplates on MBD and Crossovers are the same , but different than Marine Bands.
So in conclusion a sandwich type harmonica has three parts. The comb the reedplate and the coverplate. None of which are the same on the crossover or the MBD as the 1896 Marine Band.
Honestly I don't know why they even put Marine Band on those two harps? More importantly to me they just don't have the same sweet tone.
@hvyj Not everyone can get good tone with Marine Bands, but just keep in mind that doesn't mean your right. That's just your experience!
@hvjy and Jbone
I totally understand what your talking about. I love Marine Bands that work well. For years it was a real pain the ass to buy a brand new harp that didn't work wortha crap! That's why I played Lee Oskars then SP 20's for a long time.
I have to say though I'm kind of surprised this is still going on because the quality of Marine Bands has gotten so good lately! I think alot of this mentality is carry over from the Hohner dark days (unless your like me and have problems with the comb sweeling).
When the Manji came out I thought finally. I don't have to screw around with sanding and finnishing the damn combs anymore (unlike Adam I can't play them stock. I must be a slobber player because I just open the cover of a Marine Band box and the comb starts to sweels up), but I don't think they are anything alike at all! I was very dissapointed.
But that was just my experience!
@Zodiac as Adam Hamil said + you have to send in the proof of purchase (just for future reference).
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hvyj
2100 posts
Feb 09, 2012
6:03 AM
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@chromaticblues: I didn't say anything about not being able to get good tone out of an MB. I agree that MBs have a distinctive tone. Purely as a matter of taste, I don't happen to LIKE the sound of an MB compared to certain other currently available instruments.
But, sure, if you like that sound it's absolutely possible to get good tone from an MB. I mean, who would argue that, say, Big Walter Horton didn't produce great tone.
Also, vented covers are particularly good for players who do the hand-wah stuff. I generally don't play "in air", but I do have a couple of MBDs and a Crossover in guitar keys with custom combs on them that I keep around for those very rare occasions when I'm called on to play that way. So, to a certain extent it's a matter of the right tool for the right job, but I've never been a fan of the MB sound. Tonally, it does not appeal to me.
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2012 6:20 AM
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hvyj
2101 posts
Feb 09, 2012
7:16 AM
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Another thing about MBs, MBDs and Crossovers: Personally, I strongly prefer playing ET harps, but I like the sound of an MBD better than I do a Crossover. Why? because, to my ear, the difference tones produced by the MB/MBD compromise tuning sound more appealing in combination with the vented covers of those harps. The Crossover has a tuning closer to ET which, to my ear, does not produce the same symbiosis with the vented covers.
This may be why some players particularly like MBs for playing only in first and second positions. Now, I think MBs/MBDs sound out of tune anyway, but this is a little less apparent in first and second positions which are what is used for most traditional style playing.
So, yeah, i do understand that the MB/MBD has certain characteristics that appeal to certain players. I'm just not one of those players.
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2012 7:16 AM
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7LimitJI
593 posts
Feb 09, 2012
7:45 AM
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"Marine Band Deluxes and Crossovers DO NOT SOUND LIKE MARINE BANDS!"
OOTB they sound different, but once they are tuned to whatever tuning you use, they sound the same.
MBD and Crossover are tuned closer to ET than the Classic MB. This makes them sound brighter.Nothing else.
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HarpNinja
2138 posts
Feb 09, 2012
7:50 AM
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MBD tuning = MB 1896 tuning
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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RT123
265 posts
Feb 09, 2012
7:59 AM
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I have said for a long time "why do they continue to make the classic Marine Band?". In this day, with all the new technology, why???
Well if you think about it, it's pretty simple. Name recognition and cost. They have been made for a long time and people know the name. They could easily put in screws and use a composite comb like the Manji. It would sound exactly the same but be much more user friendly. The problem is the cost would go up and they wouldn't be making as much unless they raised the price. They are already overpriced in my opinion for what you get compared to other harps.
People like Adam have been playing them for 30+ years and love them. Its all they ever known. They learned on them and they know how to use them.
I dont find it to be a badge of honor that you can play them even though you have to work harder to do it. I also dont find it a bad thing to find a harp that is easier to play. To me its not taking the easy way out, it is using common sense, but then that is my opinion again.
My father always talks about how cars were better before power steering. you get more control but you need to work harder at it. I on the other hand embrace the technology and go for the smooth, easy flowing, power steering. To each his own.
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HarpNinja
2139 posts
Feb 09, 2012
8:00 AM
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In A/B/C'ing a new Classic, MBD, and Crossover in the same key, the biggest differences, as I recall, were the tuning and EQ. The Classic, even the new sealed ones, tends to have a warmer and breathier sound OOTB. Playing amped, and 99% of the time acoustic, I doubt anyone could pick out the difference assuming similar tuning.
The biggest difference OOTB was some of the playability due to gapping. I am not going to say that the models sound the exact same, but the differences compared to unrelated or dated models is very little in the real world. The MBD and Crossover tend to feel more focused in their sound, and if I had to guess (I really don't use stock harps, so don't spend a ton of time testing this) has more presence due to the combination of tolerances, comb, and coverplates.
Specifically, better reed profiles (although the newer MB's are better and closer to the first Crossovers, etc), more airtight, and more open in the back.
I like to play devil's advocate and call BS on just about anything, but actually have to admit that IME, I think the MB sounds raspier than other harps in all variations and I have taken a liking to it. I think some of it is still a bit of a placebo effect, but regardless of tuning, they seem more aggressive than the GM and SP20.
In contrast, I find the 1847 to be a much cleaner playing harp.
Every time I play a GM or SP20, I start playing pretty. Every time I play a MB, I play with more edge.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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chromaticblues
1175 posts
Feb 09, 2012
8:57 AM
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OK let me see if I can get though!
The MBD's and Crossovers have different coverplates. I don't remember right now, but I think they are thicker and shorter (from frone to back) I'm at work and can't compare right now. I have done this a few years ago though.
Diffrenet!
The MBD's and Crossovers have narrower Reedplate slots. This makes them easier to play, but
Diferent!
footnote: I have found Marine Bands and SP 20's easier to play lately. So maybe that has changed.
The Crossover has a Bamboo comb. Nice, but
Diffrenet!
The MBD has a half sealed comb and even though it's listed as being the wood. The colour looks different.
I'm not sure why? But
Different!
1896 Marine Band seems to have a raspier tone?
Coverplates
1896 seems to be a little more eathy sounding to some people compared to the other two?
wider reed slots (if they still are) and unsealded comb!
But the comb doesn't affect the sound of the harmonica! Oh yeah I forgot!
Different
Now what about the tuning?
So if you tune all three of these harps the same way they will all sound the same.
I retune every harmonica I play and/or sell same way every time.
Tuning isn't it!
Different
RT123 it's more than just that. I know it makes it easier for the people that don't like that wooden comb to say that. After awhile you even believe it.
But for people that do master them then compare them to other harps. They look at it in a different light than what you just pointed out.
I don't play Marine Bands for any of the same reasons you listed!
RT we live close enough where I don't mind showing you what I mean!
I don't mean that in a confrontational way toward you RT. I'm being sincere
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groyster1
1746 posts
Feb 09, 2012
9:15 AM
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the absolute worst ootb harp I ever bought was a commemorative,gold mb1896-1996-I tried to take it back it was so bad and the saleman refused...it stayed in the drawer for a long time then sent it to harvey berman and now it plays great-I recently bought 2 hicksville era mb1896 on Ebay,one a Bb that plays great the other one in A that 5draw sticks,so have to agree its all about the luck of the draw-that being said,for playing blues mb1896 is hard to beat although I hate the damn nails
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Adam Hamil
26 posts
Feb 09, 2012
9:23 AM
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@chromaticblues "The MBD has a half sealed comb"
The first few MBDs made back in 2005 had half sealed combs, but now the MBD and Crossover combs are fully sealed, three coats. The new 1896 MBs now have coated combs also, two coats.
"even though it's listed as being the wood. The colour looks different."
Also, the MBD comb is still pearwood. The finish make the color appear a little darker.
"But the comb doesn't affect the sound of the harmonica! Oh yeah I forgot!"
I disagree. IME comb matieral can have a major influence in tone and volume.
It is my personal belief that 1896 MBs sound raspier b/c of the nails. Any free reed instrument is relient on contact with a resonant surface. Depending on the amount of contact, and the pressure behind the contact, the reeds will resonate differently. I've screwed together many 1896s and sealed the combs. They tend to sound closer to the MBD.
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C. Adam Hamil
Free Reed Instrument Technician
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2012 9:41 AM
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RT123
266 posts
Feb 09, 2012
9:44 AM
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@chromaticblues -
I know you are sincere about that. You are a straight shooter and i appreciate that. My point wasnt to bash Marine Bands. It was to point out the 2 flaws in it (The comb and the nails). If they fixed those 2 things i would have no problem trying one out. They will NEVER fix those 2 issues for the reasons I stated above.
I lot of great players use them and I love to listen to them. I am just not going to be using them. I am not a talented customizer like you are (I am being sincere about that as well). I just like to play and be low maintenance with my harps, thats why i use Suzukis. I dont want to ber replacing nails with screws, rubbing the comb in mineral oil, gapping every reed because they are all over the place....
Do i think Marine Bands sound great in the right players hands? YES.
DO i think they are as uncomfortable as hell and need a lot of work before I can play them? YES
Would i rather buy a Bluesmaster, Harpmaster, or Manji and take them out of the box and be ready to go? YES
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Kingley
1764 posts
Feb 09, 2012
9:47 AM
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"OOTB they sound different, but once they are tuned to whatever tuning you use, they sound the same."
7LimitJI - I disagree. I have Marine Band 1896, Marine Band Deluxe and Marine Band Crossovers harmonicas. All of them are tuned to 7 limit JI. The Marine Band 1896 definitely has a browner tone than the others to my ear. Admittedly the tone difference is more pronounced in the Crossover than the Deluxe. However is still exists. I should also add that when I self customise these harps the differences are even more miniscule, but to my ear are still present.
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Todd Parrott
835 posts
Feb 09, 2012
10:37 AM
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There are some good arguments and points made in this thread, but I believe most of the tone, etc., comes from the player. I think we over analyze things sometimes, myself included.
I can sound about the same on any harmonica, no matter the brand, but I have my favorites just like anyone else because of several factors - covers, shape, comb, etc. With any instrument, it's important to find what works for you and what you're comfortable with.
Do I notice differences between MB vs. Crossover vs. GM vs. SP20, etc.??? Of cousre but it's not like a night and day difference, and I certainly don't think a non-harmonica playing audience can tell the difference.
That being said, there's nothing I'd rather play less than an out-of-the-box Marine Band. I'd much rather sacrifice some of the "magic" tone of the classic Marine Band for a MBD or Crossover. I don't depend on the harmonica enough for my tone to worry with a nailed-together harp, though the GM reed plates used to be nailed to the comb. ;)
When they started using screws on the GM reed plates, I noticed no difference in the tone.
I've found that the biggest difference in tone comes more from the cover plates than the comb. I use different comb materials cause they look pretty. :)
I wish Hohner would spend more time on other diatonic models, instead of focusing all of their energy on introducing new Marine Band styles. Just a Special 20 with opened covers or a Golden Melody with a chip-free comb would be nice.
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Kingley
1766 posts
Feb 09, 2012
10:48 AM
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"I wish Hohner would spend more time on other diatonic models, instead of focusing all of their energy on introducing new Marine Band styles. Just a Special 20 with opened covers or a Golden Melody with a chip-free comb would be nice."
I wish Hohner would simply put the Marine Band 1896 together with screws. Other than that I wouldn't want any changes to it.
"Do I notice differences between MB vs. Crossover vs. GM vs. SP20, etc.??? Of cousre but it's not like a night and day difference, and I certainly don't think a non-harmonica playing audience can tell the difference."
I agree with you entirely Todd.
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chromaticblues
1176 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:00 PM
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@Adam Hamil I was being sarcastic about comb material. I know it makes a difference! Some people on this forum have said (repeatedly) comb material has NO affect on the tone of a harmonica.
That is FAlSE! I know what I hear and I don't care who says what!
Also what? The nails. The way I put them together eliminates what your suggesting. I put them back together with the nails that came in them also.
I have built a number of Sp 20's with custom Bamboo combs with Marine Band coverplates and BAM
They sound like Marine Bands. Rasp and everything!
Put Sp 20 covers and it goes away (or at least sounds different) for the most part. It's hard to describe, but all the Sp 20's will sound that way also.
Double also: Because the MBD were half sealed I was refering to the wood that wasn't sealed. LOL
Thanks but I'm smart enough to know that!
New Marine Bands sound raspy because of the material they make the reeds with now. The only reason it doesn't come out on the Hohner models is because the coverplates mute it out. I've put Marine Band covers on SP 20's and it sounds closer to a Marine Band than a SP 20. Also the coverplates are Stainless steel now and they use to be nickel plated steel. Although I'm not sure if they new covers have anything to do with the way they sound or not. I tried swaping coverplates from new MB's to old MB's visa versa. I couldn't really hear anything myself. I guess the nickel plating makes it similar enought to Stainless steel where I can't tell the difference.
I agree with you Todd about Hohner just leaving the damn Marine Band alone. As if we need three different Marine Bands? I think the fact they haven't changed the SP 20 is a good thing. It would be nice if they offered it with open backs. I do it on all the SP 20's I sell it's not hard. I think they sound better that way, but I also know some people prefer it the other way. So options would be nice.
The Golden Melody has also basically remained the same. Exept instead of redesigning the comb they tried a few different bolt patterns. None of which seemed to fix the problem.
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hvyj
2102 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:08 PM
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"there's nothing I'd rather play less than an out-of-the-box Marine Band." Yeah, me too.
"I think the MB sounds raspier than other harps in all variations" Yeah, I agree. That's ONE of many reasons I don't like them.
"why do they [Hohner] continue to make the classic Marine Band?" ANSWER: Because they have a P.T. Barnum business philosophy. Which, btw, appears to work very well for them.
"I've found that the biggest difference in tone comes more from the cover plates than the comb." I agree about the cover plates, but it's been my experience that the performance of any GM, MBD or Crossover improves significantly when you put a quality FLAT custom comb on it.
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timeistight
325 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:23 PM
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'"why do they [Hohner] continue to make the classic Marine Band?" ANSWER: Because they have a P.T. Barnum business philosophy.'
That's ridiculous. They continue to make them because they are very popular, as evidenced by this very thread.
When Hohner tried "updating" the 1896 years ago with the MS version, the harmonica community howled in protest until they brought the original back.
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nacoran
5214 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:44 PM
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I wish Hohner (or Lee Oskar, the only other supplier that I can buy locally) would make a cost competitive long cover harp (or even just sand the front edges of a Golden Melody.) Actually, I really wish someone besides Turbo would get in the aftermarket cover market with some different shape and thickness and venting options. (I still haven't tried a Turbo Lid. I like the idea, and I'll get around to it, but they look ugly.) Actually, one of my favorite harps, for a long time, was something my brother found for me at a garage sale. My guess is it was an extra from one of those engraved novelty covers runs. The metal was insanely thin and the back opening looked more like a crack than an opening. It dented all the time. But you could feel the sound coming through the covers better than any other harp I've owned.
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hvyj
2104 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:48 PM
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"They continue to make them because they are very popular"
This statement is by no means inconsistent with the existence of a P.T. Barnum business philosophy, assuming ol' P.T. was right about a potential customer being born every minute.
The reaction to MS harps may well have been because MS harps do not constitute an improvement over anything.
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groyster1
1748 posts
Feb 09, 2012
3:32 PM
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@timeisight
the same situation when coke changed the recipe.....they backed down,just like hohner as their reputation was at stake
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groyster1
1749 posts
Feb 09, 2012
3:43 PM
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its been fun to bid for old mb1896s on Ebay,theres a lot of them in the old cardboard boxes of the hicksville ny era which some are convinced were a much better mb1896-have bought 2 for less than 10.00
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Miles Dewar
1187 posts
Feb 09, 2012
4:24 PM
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So what is the issue here?
Oh yeah, 600,000 different harmonicas are made because people have 600,000 different opinions!
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groyster1
1750 posts
Feb 09, 2012
4:48 PM
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@miles
zadidozica started this thread about a mb1896 which failed him...opinions have gone rampant...hohners quality control of these harps have been scrutinized.... but a lot of great blues have been made on these harps-what do you think???
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Miles Dewar
1189 posts
Feb 10, 2012
10:57 AM
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@Groyster, I think they are great harmonicas. The 1896 Marine Band is my go-to.
There certainly are some inconsistencies, but most can be managed.
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groyster1
1751 posts
Feb 10, 2012
2:13 PM
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@miles
totally agree got away from them and went to sp20s but have come back some of my old ones have been customized and are great harps with JI tuning
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