Okay, right off the bat I am going to preface this thread by saying I am NOT interested in anyone's opinions about the musicality of rap music or whether or not you like hiphop. That's NOT the point of this thread, okay?! ;)
Okay, so the point. Some of you may have seen the videos I posted from my last busking foray (posted in the Busker's Corner thread). If so, you may have seen the video where I'm laying down some loops and a local MC (I think he was still in High School, actually) was laying down some freestyle rap on top of them. Well, actually, there's more footage of that collaboration, and I want to post it here for some feedback. So, first let me post the video (NOTE: there is some strong language in the video!), and then I'll get to some of my questions for y'all.
Okay, so what do I want outta you fine folks? Well, first I want some objective opinions about the collaboration. If you know hip hop (I'm thinking MrVLUN, here, plus a couple of others), how were my beats? What about the groove and melody lines? What do you think of the MC? Was I helping or hindering the flow of the rhymes? What worked and what could I have done better/different? I'm asking these questions because I am seriously thinking about getting back in touch with that kid to see if he want to do something more serious. Unfortunately, the ball's in his court since he has my contact info, but I didn't get his. But either way, I'm seriously considering trying to get in touch with some local MC's and see what we could do together.
Secondly: Note the middle section. That was a spontaneous freestyle rap battle happening there. That got me the BIGGEST crowd of the night. Admittedly, most were high school kids, and so I actually didn't get any tips during that portion of the night... However, there was clearly a powerful draw to the youth with that stuff. What do you think?
Finally, and I know that this may be opening a can of worms that I may loose control of, but what do you think of the place of the harmonica in hip hop, and the way to connect Blues and Hip Hop? Informed, rational opinions on this only please!
I've been going back and forth about posting this here because of the nastiness that has come up in the past when mentioning the word "Hip Hop", but I decided to post it anyway because I really do value many of your opinions, and I know that you all will keep this discussion on track!
If it is turning you on go for. Forget what others say. If you dwell on that you will go nowhere. Sugar hill was starting out when I was in NJ and I use to walk all around newark blowing my harp and singing. They use to say- "here come walter tore the white boy king of rap". If you need some rap lessons let me know :-) . Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
You've tapped into something there Isaac, the kids are hungry for it. The guy in the Orioles shirt rapped along well with your beats and adapted quite well with your playing.
I'd say go for it, it could be developed into something quite unusual and new.
I like any "out-of-the box" innovations as you know. It's progress and you never know where these things are going to go.
Considering the apparent limitations of the gear sharing arrangement, that has a lot of potential I reckon - Mr. Woodnote with harp. I liked it.
I'd like to see what you can do together if you could amplify the MC, your loops and your harp (and the MC without distortion).
I actually liked the style of the other MC better, but the kid in orange was leaving you more space. The beatboxing element didn't really come through - that could just be the mic on your recorder (iphone?)
As for hip-hop and blues, you know what I think: I consider there to be more parallels between blues and hip hop (culturally and musically) than most blues fans are comfortable to accept; viewing 'their' blues though rose-tinted specs.
This is now. It's credible. It is bringing harp to a new audience.Bravo!
Oh... and rap is crap. ;-)
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2012 3:16 PM
Innovation is a mother fucker. All innovation is ridiculed and harshly opposed before it becomes accepted.
I think the harp has a place in the rap and hip hop world. Hell, I use to play metal guitar grooves for rappers and it was fun as hell and that sounded great in my opinion.
I think I've got a recording of at least part of our Normanskill Saxons crew backing up one of the local poets in a spoken word piece. It wasn't as fiercely rhythmic as full blown rap, but it was pretty fun.
It sounds like maybe the rapper could have used a cleaner mic. It's hard to make out what he's saying. I think in a situation like that it's actually more up to the rapper to make it work with what you're playing. Let him give you a sense of the beat he wants, but he's got to give you time to establish it and fit it to what you are playing. You are playing something repetitive, so he can learn that quickly. I think maybe you should make sure you have some cues worked out before hand so you've got a spot to do some soloing over the loop without vocals. Once your bass loop is going you might want to see if you can't work in stops to add to it with live stuff- I don't mean melody, there is a place for melody, but something to break up the bass track a bit. For instance, if the bass track is going:
boom ---- boom ---- boom ----
Throw in some extra beats with the same effect from time to time to make it sound less like a loop.
boom ta-- boom ---- boom ta--
Sort of the thing about repetitive, but with variation. The other thing you might consider is pitch shifting. When you are hammering the rhythm, shifting it down an octave might give you a more concussive effect. Keep us posted. I'll try to find that audio of us with the poet.
As for connecting harp and hip hop (harp-hop?) I guess you can look at this two ways: it can either be a blues fusion thing, or you can make it a more melodic thing, the way Bad News Brown approached it.
You've often stated an intent of making blues more relevant to a younger audience, so I guess that you're looking at the former.
I'd be working on things like John Lee Hooker style boogies and blues/funk (Funkadelic springs to mind) where the emphasis is on the groove rather than the changes. I noticed a lack of bluesey wails in the clip - I'm presuming that was an intentional thing. I don't think they are necessarily a totally bad thing in this context though, used sparingly.
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2012 3:34 PM
Issac: It didn't strike me as fusion until the 5:40 mark. It got interesting for a few moments there while you were actually laying down those licks because the harp was actually making a statement, and it fit the groove. Up until then I was bored, and I don't think the harp was adding much that some other instrument or rhythm device couldn't have done. That may be partly because of the recording quality; maybe it was more interesting live. I think if you want it to be unique the harp needs to be a voice rather than a beat, and you were on to that near the end.
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2012 4:19 PM
Great feedback so far! This is exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping all your ears would hear. I fully agree that the equipment was limiting us. With only one mic, I thought I better give it to the MC and just sort of play acoustically in time with the loops. If I get to do this again with more equipment I will definitely try to play stuff more like what you guys are saying.
@nacoran: Do you think I needed to do a longer beatbox segment? Typically, I do 2 to 4 bars because I soemtimes feel that when folks take longer, it just feels like we are all waiting for the song to start. Or did you mean just to do beats that aren't so repetitive. I'm two ways about that, because most hiphop beats ARE repetitive because they are sampled.I'm curious to hear what others think of the beats too...
@easyreeder: I think you've got a really good point there... I'm going to listen to that part again a few time to analyze what we had going on there.
@MrVLUN: I think you've hit the nail on the head with the difference between making a blues fusion thing or a bad news brown melodic thing... That is something I am going to have to think about long an hard. Right now, I'm leaning a little towards the BNB thing, but perhaps the fusion route is really the way I ought to head with this.
@waltertore, Tooka, and scum: Thanks for the encouragement brothers! I appreciate it!
I love to hear any more comments from the forum, so keep 'em coming! ---------- == I S A A C ==
I think it depends on the bars, but, for instance, standard blues has a 12 bar progression. Other progressions are shorter. There is that famous progression that they send up in the Axis of Awesome video that is used in so many pop songs. Do a full progression that resolves... but more specifically, I'd do a real basic loop, and then have a couple variations that you could throw in, either on another track or just by playing them. I'd have to take a listen to more dance music to see how long the basic loop is, but even the really repetitive loops have some sort of breakdown mixed in after a few bars. I'd think the easiest way with a loop pedal would be to quickly record the basic beat on one loop, and the breakdown on the second, then swap them- so, for instance, if you were doing a 12-bar you could just quickly record a bar of I, a bar of IV and a bar of V, with the idea that by recording 3 bars you've actually given yourself enough loop on 3 tracks to play 12 bars, that way you haven't taken too much time recording to set up, but you've gotten a lot of playing time. You could also throw in a vii and mix it in with the other loops, but periodically, do a bar of live fill the mix with some syncopation to the same basic beat, a little stutter hear and there.
You could either stop that loop while you play it, or play in between, so for instance, if you have the loop playing on the 1 and 3 in a 4/4 beat, let the loop keep doing that, but throw a different note in on the 2 and 4 one time through. Think of it like a drum kit. The loop is playing the bass drum do give it that nice dance beat. You don't want the high hat playing on every off beat, but now and then you want to throw it in for emphasis. You can listen for the breaks in the rhyme. That's when having some cues worked out with the other guy really helps. :)
Of course, that's all 'in theory'. I often have a good idea of what I'm thinking and a lot harder time putting it into practice. It's funny the little things that trip us up. I've been having problems getting my vocals heard at our shows. Our other singer keeps telling me that I've got to stay on top of the mic. I can do that just fine on songs where I'm not playing harp. Once I'm in a spot where I have to switch between vocals and harp I drop off the mic for my more acoustic harp sound and somewhere in the transition back to the vocal I find myself way back from the mic again! The devil is in the details. I'm thinking about saving up and seeing if maybe Greg could design me a microphone with a toggle switch for two volume controls. I still think it would be better if I could just get some sort of computer chip to tell the difference between harmonica and my voice though. :)
RAP,what was talkin` blues,what did bob dylan do in the 60`s or albert collins too.nothing new,maby some spew with more moon, june in a spoon with the same cadence.it`s 2012 much easy`r to talk $hit to a loop than playing the bones,I`ll honk a harp to any beat and meet it on the down beat,Aflack!!!
I like the flow at 3:21 or so. I agree with tookatooka: Something very interesting is happening here. Kids are lingering for street music, and the harmonica is an intrinsic part of what's going on. The harp is portable, strongly rhythmic, with a "variable" sound, chameleonic, that easily insinuates itself into different sorts of tracks and musics. I think you definitely SHOULD get in touch with the kid.
I was struck by the way that the sound itself--rapping + harp track--seemed to draw shuffling guys in hoodies, almost despite themselves. It's like you had a sound that they were powerless not to check out.
Hey Isaac, I think there is definitely something going on there. I think your beats support the MC well, and some of the harmonica stuff felt like it was referencing some of the old school hip-hop form the 80s and early 90s. Nice!
I think there is definitely room for blues in hip-hop. I, like MrVerylongusername, think that blues and hip-hop are very close cousins culturally and musically. This is one of my favourite hip-hop tracks from spoken word poet Saul Williams. There is a definite reference to early blues forms/field hollers etc.
One thing that struck me from your recording is that it did feel slightly repetitive. Hip-hop does use very repetitive beats and loops, but tension and interest is often created by dropping beats and loops in and out. Working this against what the MC is doing can create some great rhythmic interest.
Check this out from the Pharcyde. They are using the same drum beat and 2 or 3 other loops all the way through the track, listen carefully to how the Producer/DJ creates tension and marks the chorus etc. by dropping the beat out for a bar or a beat, and dropping the other loops in and out. Like blues he's creating tension and also making space for the MCs.
Baker: that Saul Williams song is probably the best thing he's ever done. His poetry by itself is mediocre (I have one of his books), and his songs are generally overbearing (and maybe a bit too reliant on Trent Reznor), but he really can bust out some fantastic lines. Have you heard the "Children of The Night" collaboration he did with Esthero?
Isaac: I like what you're doing. My one comment is that the harp can be such an interesting instrument for hip hop, but I think that it requires heavy syncopation to differentiate itself from a regular beat. Of course, the MC would have to be very agile to vibe with a beat like that, but it makes the rhythms so much more interesting.
I think its cool issac! Here's an idea. 1st you need a two mic setup 2nd when you practice playing harp next time. Put some rap music on and play along. I gravitate toward the drum machine beat. I think playing like a synchopated drummer with only a few hook like notes repeated over and over. You can vary the lick, but once you change do it a few times before going back to original. Or even stop then pickup after one measure with the original lick. I'm not bashing looping, but I think that if you played while he rapped it would be more of a draw. Its more of a live situation! Then when ever a rapper stops play a short solo based heavily on your lick. Make it short and sweet! Just some random thoughts Keep after it issacullah its a good idea!
So let me condense what I'm hearing from all of you and see if I've got the consensus correct:
1) More intricate looping. Layers of loops that I trigger in and out to create tension and interest. I can do this to a limited effect with the G3's undo/redo feature for overdubs, and if I use the built in drum machine instead of my mouth percussion, I can start and stop that independently. However, I may need to use a more complex looper like the boomerang or sampler like the BOSS Dr. Sample, or perhaps try to see if I can use the looper in my RP155 in conjunction with the one in the G3.
2) Syncopate the beat more while playing. This something I will practice for sure!
3) It would be more interesting if I interspersed some harp solos and melodic fills with the raps. I feel you on this. It will require a dedicated vocal mic for the MC, and a mic hooked up to my looping and FX equipment for me. I do have a bigger battery amp that has two inputs, so I'll definitely bring that next time!
4) Better clarity for the raps. This will be solved by the same equipment solution as #3, above.
@kudzu: I do hope that kid gets in contact with me. He has a really good attitude and clearly has the skills. Unfortunately, all I could do was to tell him to search for me on YouTube or Reverbnation and get in contact with me that way. If doesn't do that, then I'm back to square one. The problem is that a lot of this kind of quote-unquote "good" hiphop is way way way underground. If you don't know someone who knows someone, then you won't know about it at all. I didn't know it existed in PHX until this happened. Your other point about how it drew those dudes in hoodies is absolutely spot on. It's interesting. When I play solo blues stuff, I get 30-something couples, and middle aged dudes stopping to listen in. When I do the loop stuff, I get 20-something college kids stopping and bobbing their heads. When this hip hop colabo thing went down, I got the high school kids. It was a clear and very obvious demographic split!
@Baker: That Saul Williams track really demonstrates the kind of thing that I would want to do! Thanks for posting that. My first (and basically only) loves with hip hop were groups like De La Soul, A Tribe Called Quest, Diggable Planets, and Pharcyde (nice track of theirs you posted too!). So that's the model of hip hop I have in my mind. That Saul Williams track really brings THAT kind of hip hop ethos, and marries it with the Blues. What ever I do, it has to have some kind of social, ethical, or artistic consciousness too it, and that's one of the things that really sets that track you posted apart from much of the pop "hip hop" tracks that are popular in the clubs and on the radio.
This thread has given me a lot to think about. I really appreciate everybody's input so far! ---------- == I S A A C ==
Yeah, he knows it was being filmed, so I hope he does search it out. But he's a young dude, so perhaps it just ain't his priority right now. Perhaps I'll run into him out on the street again... You never know... In the meantime, I guess I can try to search out the indie underground hip hop scene....
@nacoran... That's a damn good idea. Just your name (in my case, on the street I go by "Isaac's One Harp Band"), and the little bar code thing... I might have to do that... ---------- == I S A A C ==
other than he falls back way to much to the word fuck its good for an off the cuff improv collaboration. Again often the harp seemed to be just there but at times it added a bit. The 5:40 bit as has been mentioned. And a couple other times where things came together.
I would like to see more harp in and out of the rapping going on. More of a fusion of the two. But I suspect that would come in time. as you learned what each other was doing to do and when.
Certainly something worth pursuing if you could find a partner to do it with. Whether this kid or someone else.
Thanks shadoe42! Yeah, I think a lot of that kind of stuff would be worked out if we actually had time to work on some tracks...
Actually, in regards to the suggestions given thus far, I took about 10 minutes before dinner to work a bit with the G3's looping capabilities to see what I could do. I recorded a little bit with the mic on my MP3 player, and I'd like to see if folks who've given feedback think that I'm heading down the right track. This is a totally off-the-cuff thing, with plenty of playing mistakes, and the recording quality isn't very good, so keep that in mind. But please do tell me what you think!
While not personally liking much of the rap that I have heard, I would encourage you to continue exploring this. Despite rap (and heavy metal for that matter) arriving on the scene after I formed my musical tastes, I like seeing harp used unconventionally in all musical forms. The jump from harpboxing to rap doesn't seem that big to me.
If you enjoy the form, go for it! I think that by creating a good groove, it will work really well. As suggested above, if you work with a rapper for a while, your performances will meld into a band performance rather than two individuals, and it will continue to improve. Maybe insert some non-looped harp riffs to play off the rap lyrics? That would mean changing the mic setup.
Please post more as you continue this exploration! ----------
Consider a dedicated looper, especially when playing with others. A lot can go wrong wen looping with others and control becomes critical. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bv4nKoqI3o&feature=youtube_gdata_player ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
@harpninja: I definitely want to get a dedicated looper, but it is an issue of funds. Right now, I've over stepped my budget buying the G3, so I'm trying to sell some of my other gear to get back in the black. One of the things I'm considering is to buy a decent USB midi foot controller, and then use sooperlooper or ambiloop, which are both really good pieces of free software that can do several independent loops, with loop quantization. I've got an old tablet PC laptop that I could then use as dedicated looper.
@tooka: That's definitely and omen! :) ---------- == I S A A C ==
cool stuff isaac! I love working with emcees because they are usually vocalists that can improv. You can lay down an unfamiliar beat and they can usually work with it. Most "singers" want to perform a song (which you both have to know). Anyone who turns their nose up at spontaneity has a closed mind.
As for furthering your sound... definitely work on the beatbox. The beatbox is why harpboxing crosses over into hiphop. Listen to hiphop beatboxers... Beatbox battle TV on youtube for intricate or Semerock on youtube is killer and simple.
Don't be afraid to play a repeating melody over the beat as well. Hiphop is all sample based, so "sample" yourself. Weird cuts and stops make this sound.
Thanks Benjamin! You were one of the dudes I was hoping would respond since I knew you had done some hip hop or at least you really know your hip hop well... That great advice, and I will most certainly keep it in mind as I try to progress with this stuff!
I've been doing my homework on YouTube. I want to be doing stuff like that Saul Williams track above and this Mos Def cut here:
I'm listening to the music in both of those cuts, and also the beats, and man, I can DO that! I just need an MC that can spit the truth like that! I can write some rhymes, but I'm not that much of a poet. I've never tried rapping either, but I know it's way harder than it seems. I wonder if I just make bunch of instrumental hip hop stuff and put it on YouTube if some wandering ronin emcee would contact me? Worth a shot I suppose! ---------- == I S A A C ==
