??? i was playing the other day and i got to a part where in the song the note was held for a good 3 mins and i could do it i thougt i need new lungs after that. is there a secret to it?
to me it is a medative thing. I have held notes for well over a minute on one breath when a bit of circular breathing starts to take place. It is a real high to feel air going out and in at the same time, but I can't do it for very long like horn players do. I stumbled onto this well over 30 years ago but don't practice it conciously. When it hits I go with it. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I think the secret to holding a 3 minute note is that there is no secret. Only a solution....change it to seconds. 3 minutes is longer than some complete songs!! ---------- Tommy
3 minutes? Circular breathing... or maybe Olympic training. If you get good at circular breathing though you can hold it for three hours if your attention span is long enough.
Michael, your diaphragm is a muscle. It moves DOWN to create negative pressure in your chest cavity which in turn causes the lungs to draw air in. It moves UP to create positive pressure to force air out. That's just physics. You can't draw more air in by reversing the direction of your diaphragm when your lungs are already full. I believe you may be describing what circular breathing feels like to you, which is uninterrupted positive airflow. The only way it can be done as far as I know is to puff out the cheeks while exhaling normally, and the squeeze them, forcing air out of the mouth cavity, while inhaling through the nose, then transition back to normal exhalation and allow the cheeks to puff back out.
Easy to describe, much harder to do. I cannot do it. ---------- /Greg
I wonder if everyone who (glibly?) talks about circular breathing can actually do it, BOTH WAYS! The implication is that it's automatically two-way, but I've seen Rolf Harris demonstrate it with a didgeridoo on TV, and the technique is to inflate the cheeks and breath in through the nose, whilst expelling the air in the cheeks with the tongue blocking the back of the throat. Ha, I just tried that on my Low-F harp and got the best OB I ever heard, on the 2-hole!
To draw on a harp is subtly different, sucking with the cheeks whilst blocking the back of the throat with the tongue and exhaling through the nose (try it without bending the 2 draw down!), would be the reverse technique, but more difficult because the mouth will form a smaller reservoir, and I'm going to have to give that one some thought! ---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- The only good cat is a stir-fried cat. (ALF)
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2011 10:24 AM
I touch on it with harp, but like I said can't do it for but a second or two but that allows me to get some air and extend the note time. The horn players I know that can do it told me you need more back pressure than a harp gives to really do it easily for long times. It is a great way to relax! Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Greg, I am definitely not circular breathing, my nose has nothing to do with it, plus I cannot go on indefinitely, just a real long time. I'll show you at the next SPAH. My stomach definitely pushes out then recedes in while I am drawing air in. I guess I am ignorant of whatever are the real physics of the breathing and the diaphragm.
There's bound to be Youtube stuff on didgeridoo playing. ---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- The only good cat is a stir-fried cat. (ALF)
It is not just the diaphragm that facilitates breathing, the muscles of your ribcage (intercostal muscles) and abdomen are also involved.
The contribution of the other muscles is greater in this kind of deep and active breathing.
What MIchael describes is normal - the abdomen pushes out as the diaphragm acts to fill the lungs. The abdominals and the intercostals then cause the ribcage to expand too; rising to increase the lung capacity beyond the regular airflow. That might make it feel like the belly is receding again. (wish mine would).
I can circular breath on a didge, but haven't had much success transferring it to the harp other than low blow notes - the tone change during the transition from cheek pressure to lung pressure is very noticeable, but that could just be that I haven't worked at it enough. I don't think it's possible to do it on a draw note.
Greg's method is correct - try practising blowing bubbles into a glass through a drinking straw.
Simple solution: buy an electroharmonix freeze pedal.
I'm really curious - I like drones in music, but a harmonica note held for 3 mins? what tune is it?
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2011 11:19 AM
"My stomach definitely pushes out then recedes in while I am drawing air in. I guess I am ignorant of whatever are the real physics of the breathing and the diaphragm."
You are drawing air in with your diaphragm until it reaches it maximum and then you continue to inhale using your accessory muscles. I bet your shoulders go up when you get to that point.
Your accessory muscles of breathing are the smaller muscles that lift/expand your ribcage. They are in between your ribs and in between your neck, clavicles and ribs. They probably don't account for all that much air when you compare what volume of air your diaphragm can move - and that's why it's good technique to not use them for singing (and harp playing?)
I think when vocal coaches try to get you to breath using your diaphragm, what they mean in fact is for you to breathe using *only* your diaphragm. But I digress...
If you inhale as much as you can and then still have some room to go by kicking in your accessory muscles, then that would probably be good technique, since you are not using those muscles on a regular basis.
To get control over the diaphragm, my vocal coach made me do a few exercises. One in particular is to open your mouth and take in a big breath then exhale as slowly as possible (mouth open!) using only your diaphragm to control the rate of exhalation. The goal (probably an arbitrary number) is 80 seconds. My record is just over 100. It's in fact easier to do with a harp in your mouth since the harp helps you slow down the air; you do have to play very softly, though.
I can't imagine three minutes!
There's a video of MP playing some 20 years ago where he holds a note for a damn long time... Maybe I can find it and post it here. Perhaps he'll spill the beans...
If your concern is to keep a note for a long time to play this or this song that needs it, I can understand (I don't know any songs that require more than 20 seconds non stop)....We're the only instrument capable of producing a sound in and out, so there's no point
Greg knows that I can do circular breathing, from our former instrument the oboe....Do I use it for the harmonica ? NO NEVER
This subject even if it looks a good idea to talk about breathing (my first lesson is about this subject so yes I care) BUT I don't see any point of keeping a note for "3 minutes"
Does it serve the music? Does the music needs it??
Are we in unbelievable but true? Are we at the olympics?
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2011 11:36 AM
Use the "hold" function on your DD3? Go to the bar, order a drink, have a chat, come back to the stage ...& pick up where you left off. ;-)
Don't hold the note for 3 mins, create a diversion, use a cymbals crash/gun shot/earthquake to hide the fact you took a breath.
Why hold a note for 3 mins anyway? The song probably finished whilst you were turning blue?
2 minutes, on a blow note should be pretty possible with a little practice...the instinct to breath comes from CO2 build up in the lungs, rather than a lack of oxygen, people who hold their breath for a long time tend to exhale, rather than inhale before doing so & still have to let gas out. A minute is easy, a mate of mine worked up to 2 minutes easily enough with a little practice...still has no musical context though. A note held for 3 minutes is more normally referred to as a "noise". ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2011 11:43 AM
No I haven't, in fact Berio and Heinz Holliger (the oboe player of the 20th century this guys was a genius) worked together a lot on new ways to compose music, this piece like any of the other sequenza is EXTREMELY difficult to play, BUT I remember clearly that playing the Strauss Concerto, or playing the 3 Romances of Schumann were as far as I remember the black sheep to avoid for many oboe players
Some other technical bullshit like "The Bees" by Pasculi (I'll not put the video here it has already turned into an olympic game kind of thing) are difficult to play to, but no musical interest
In classical music (you know, with "real" instruments) there is something called a breath mark for wind instruments. It's written in the music, looks like a comma above the staff, to cue the player to take a breath. Could be that a note is being sustained by a number of players and the breathing is staggered, but I'm just speculating. I believe there's a similar mark for stringed instruments to indicate lifting of the bow. I have played wind instruments (brass) in concert bands and symphonic orchestras and have never seen (or heard) a three-minute note.
I have held audiences dead silent captive by holding a single note for a long time and did it playing quietly to boot. It can add a ton to a song, vibe of your person, vibe on a room, when used right. I think the non circular breathing holding a note creates a great tension in the room- like will his lungs burst! I wonder how many who have critizied this here have ever experienced what I am talking about in front of a room full of captive listeners. You just can't come out doing it. You have to first get the audience tuned in and it has to be whisper quiet to be effective. I see less and less of this nowadays. Most gigs are backround things. Players play to people that talk, and are not there to specifically hear music. I have no interest in these kind of gigs. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Now I've heard it for 3 mins, I'm even more curious to hear from SonnyD as to which song features something like this on harp.
There's a world of difference between dramatically holding a note for tension (as Walter describes) and this. Musically speaking, what's the point? Perhaps if we had a context (the name of the tune would be a start) it might make more sense.
Hahaha! You could have been an astronaut Christelle! I'm just yanking your chain a bit... hope it's ok? I know you're a cinema buff too. (From the "Even sith lords get the blues" thread) ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
I agree it is of not interest to simply blow a single note for 3 minutes in isolation if one has no inspiration while doing it. Yet if there is inspiration while doing it a completely different energy will be felt and it will exciting. Here is a song I recorded that has a single note at the very end of the song. IMO it adds a lot to the mood. The mood of a song is the picture painted. Trying to just do flashy stuff paints no picture and most anyone can master the notes and techniques to do this. It is just disjointed stuff. Painting a picture by taking the listener into their and your imaginations, is making music and one will have thier own unique sound. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
James Conway demonstrated circular breathing at Spah 2 years ago it was pretty cool.
It looks like a cool trick. It almost looked painful, haha. Not sure what kind of effort/commitment is required to learn this or whether or not I would personally benefit aside from showing it off. I do like the bagpipe Irish-y stuff though.
----------
~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Steven Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
amazing stuff to learn just from breathing and there this i guy at a club that i when to see that did the 3 min hold but it was part of his performance he would start the note on stage then with his cordless mic ran around the place still playing it it was great to see it
Christel, that's very informative, thanks for that video. And I applaud your sense of taste to not have used that before. You could have easily used that as a parlour trick to gain attention and YouTube hits. But you hold yourself to a higher standard - kudos!
I just ordered a didgeridoo, lol! My gf said she'd buy it for me as a Christmas present. ---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- The only good cat is a stir-fried cat. (ALF)
Circular breathing is often used by horn players and it can be also well worth your while to go to a horn coach or a vocal coach to learn proper breathing techniques. Most players have a tough time holding a note longer than 1/4 note beat worth because, right off the bat, they tend to use FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR too much breath force to start off with and for harp playing, that's a FATAL FLAW in their technique.
I used to see Carey Bell hold out notes when he was younger for as long as 24 bars worth and for a while, I couldn't get the hang of it, but when I began using 80% less breath force, it came ahelluva lot easier.
With both breathing lessons from either a vocal coach or horn coach, they will teach you to use your diaphragm, which 80% of the average player NEVER uses. The exercises will make you sore as hell for several weeks, but after awhile, using it will become second nature and won't hurt at all. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I can do circular breathing (learned it when I used to play the didjeridoo). I do use it when playing harp, but NOT for holding long notes. I actually use it when playing chord chug songs. It's the exact same technique that I use for real circular breathing where I use my cheeks as a bellows to keep the note going while I breath through my nose, but I've adapted it so I can EITHER sniff some air in (as in normal circular breathing), OR quickly puff some air out. The ability to sniff a little air in or out through the nose comes in VERY handy when you are really chugging away. It lets you maintain a balance of air in a chugging rhythm that would normally tend to become unbalanced (i.e., after a few bars you eventually end up with either too much or too little air in your lungs). It's a super handy thing to know how to do! Looks like my days in college playing the didj on the quad finally paid off! ;) ---------- == I S A A C ==
Ryanmortos, ...great clip with the Irish jig stuff. WOW!
Working on these sorts of exercises, circular or diaphragmatic, is the icing on the cake. You know you're an expert at it when you can reach certain advanced levels of playing. It's satisfying, indeed. A pat on the back. Like a degree. Great thread. Reminds me of a famous jewel of wisdom. A quote by Master Kan, in the popular redneck cowboy meets Bruce Lee series of the 60's.
"..when you can take the pebble from my hand...., it will be time for you to leave, Grasshopper".
-------- Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2011 1:16 AM
Isaac, what you say about chugging is worth heeding. I haven't played along to a record for a long time, btu I remember the breathing difficulties I had when I did attempt it to long chugging sections. I'm probably thinking of Hooker 'n' Heat. ---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- The only good cat is a stir-fried cat. (ALF)
