I found this interview with legendary hip-hop producer and samplist "9th Wonder' very very interesting. It touches on A LOT of the discussions we've had on this forum about how to "make it" in the music business, the function of the internet in the modern music business, how to sound "modern", how to appeal to this generation, and even the infamous "hip hop and blues" thread (MrVLUn remembers that one!). I'm posting this video here as means to stimulate additional conversation on these topics, which I believe are very important to the future of the Blues and harmonica. I'd urge you to listen to this video in it's entirety and to really reflect on the things 9th Wonder is saying before commenting (so please no "hip hop isn't music" type of comments! That's a valid opinion, but it's not helpful to the discussion I'd like to get started here). I think his perspective is VERY apropos of the concept of this forum and our mission to modernize our music. So let the discussion begin!
Cool! Thanks for the post. I really liked some of the beats 9th Wonder made for Wale's "Back to the Feature" mixtape, but that was over 2 years ago. I wonder what he's working on now...
Yes. The creativity is in the mind of the artist, not the tools he chooses to use.
I trust everyone who criticises hip hop for it's use of sampling and DJ mixing will be jumping down Adam's throat for using a wordprocessor instead of writing his books by hand using parchment and fountain pen.
I hope those people will switch off their TVs tonight in disgust at the fact that all the filming, editing and post production have been executed entirely in the circuits of a high end AppleMac with not single piece of celluloid film exposed - how dare they cheat like that! That's not REAL TV. That's not how did it in the 50s!
How dare you all use digital cameras, mp3 players and internet!
Interesting discussion. I don't feel musically experienced enough to comment. I know some of you guys would shoot me out the sky in no time.
However, I watched another of his videos and found the whole music making process kind of serendipitous. I'm sure that a lot of what he does is clever but I can't help coming away with the idea a lot of it is trial and error. That suits me fine because that's exactly how I create my music.
I'm at school right now, and don't have a lot of time to make a full post,but i wanted to quickly respond to a couple of points.
1) RE: Sampling as a form of music. At one extreme, you can view ANY instrument that is "tuned" to be a sampler. For example, a luthier purposefully places frets where they are so that the produce a specific musical tone (in this case a specific pitch) when fretted. Same with a piano keyboard or a reed. A sampling machine is the same way, only it's keys trigger a musical tone that is more complex than a single pitch. So, if you play music on an instrument that plays predetermined tones, you are, in effect, "sampling". I see no difference at all between the two. Adam's reference to "voice" IS valid though, and I'd extend that to include instruments that are "voice-like", such as fretless stringed instruments, where you, the musician, are the only thing producing tones. Bending notes on the harp is the same way. Now here's the kicker, if you use a sampler like the Kaoss pad, you can "bend" your samples too! And, real samplists can do this all live. So, I see the sampler as simply another kind of instrument, and thus (th Wonder and other talented samplists are, IMO, "real" musicians.
2) RE: the issues I raised in my OP. I will get to these, but I don't have time right now. Also, I purposefully did not put my opinions on these topics into the OP because I was curious about the responses I would get, and didn't want to color the debate preemptively. Call it a social scientist's prerogative! ;)
Continue the discussion! I'll be back later today... ---------- == I S A A C ==
Playing records per se does not make you a musician. Noone has said that.
Perhaps I should have been more explicit about what DJ Shadow is doing for those who can't see or hear it. There are over a dozen totally different pieces of music in that performance. The sum of their parts is totally different to any of the original pieces, and he's mixing in real time - live performance - people dancing and clapping. This isn't some inane nightclub DJ just fading one record into another and it's not music that can only be created in a producer's studio. It's composed, rehearsed and then performed for the enjoyment of others. By Adam's definition I think that makes him a musician.
I'm not asking you to like it. I'm just asking that you look critically at the skills on display. Can you say this guy isn't a musician? If you think you can, then let's hear a constructed argument against it rather than unqualified opinion.
Why do you not think he's a musician?
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2011 10:48 AM
He uses his tools to "paint his canvas". Likewise, he can use these tools to reshape and enhance the composition he is creating. The finished product is something that can be enjoyed by the public.
That is the same goal I have. I want to create something that others can enjoy. He does it differently than me.
"Why do you not think he's a musician?" They are performers,not musicians. Sampling someone elses music and dropping beats on it is not music-it is that particular DJ's way of mixing and sampling and scratching to suit his or her own personal tastes. If people dance and listen to it,more power to them-but as far as the turntable and internet programs which allow one to sample and cut from other peoples music being considered an instrument-no. Utilizing a musical instrument to make music defines a musician-you may even use your voice as an instrument-but NOT a turntable or sampling. The Beastie Boys were one of the first hip-hop groups to play all the instruments on one of their early discs-they started out purly sampling,then showed everyone that they truly were musicians by playing all the instruments on "Check Your Head".
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2011 11:06 AM
He's not sampling and dropping beats on it - he's live mixing multiple records
This is a musical collage. He is using isolated snippets in the same way that a 'traditional musician' uses notes. rearranging them. looping them (manually).
I can't see how it is really that different from a mellotron - or is that not a real instrument
BTW the Beasties started out as a hardcore punk band playing drums, guitars and bass. They went full circle on "Check Your Head".
"Playing records per se does not make you a musician. Noone has said that."
Right, only you and isacc can take things to logical extremes as part of your arguments to wit: "At one extreme, you can view ANY instrument that is "tuned" to be a sampler. For example, a luthier purposefully places frets where they are so that the produce a specific musical tone (in this case a specific pitch) when fretted. Same with a piano keyboard or a reed. A sampling machine is the same way, only it's keys trigger a musical tone that is more complex than a single pitch. So, if you play music on an instrument that plays predetermined tones, you are, in effect, "sampling"."
"Can you say this guy isn't a musician? If you think you can, then let's hear a constructed argument against it rather than unqualified opinion."
Well when the "constructed argument" consists of constructing an absurdly simple definition for a complex idea, such that you can "fit" your example into said definition....I guess i'll just stick to my "unqualified" opinion (but thanks for the condescenscion).
I went down this road with you once before about rap hip/hop, where one of your central premises was that because variances in pitches can be detected in the spoken word...people who are speaking, in a technical sense, can be said to be singing. That's when I thought ah, OK, so that's where we're going here?
My orignal comment was said in jest, but there was a point.
Heading out to the coffee shop..to have a sing with a few friends.....later i'll be "jamming" on my ipod.
"I like his insight about the visual/sonic realms and how these days many people see music first--they see the video--rather than hearing it."
He seemed to be saying that when he grew up that people weren't as into the visual aspect, and that this is something that he's trying to adapt to. But given that he was born in '75 he was growing up in the MTV era, so maybe he ignored it because it wasn't what he was into? I guess that once recording technology developed there was a period when one could just listen to tapes/records/radio stations and only listen, but it seems that the visual aspect predates this. e.g. Opera?
" BTW the Beasties started out as a hardcore punk band playing drums, guitars and bass. They went full circle on "Check Your Head". "
No shit? I have been a loyal fan since the late seventies-don't get it twisted.
He's still mixing and looping from outside sources-he is not recording his own music,and THEN looping and mixing-in other words,he is PERFORMING live sampling and mixing.
First there was no condescension - 'unqualified' in the sense that it was not backed by an argument. i.e presenting an opinion as a fact without giving people the means to challenge it. Criticism not condescension.
I never once said rappers were singing - my argument was rapping, the vocal technique, has a natural cadence analogous to melody. I will stand by that forever. It is not speech and it is not singing. It is something inbetween. There - I have 'qualified' my position that rap has melody - you know why I hold that opinion and you are free to challenge it. Frankly I don't understand why you constantly drag this one up.
You love to haunt my posts and throw sarcastic comments and run. From now on, if you can't be civil then I'll just ignore you.
Alright guys, this is getting off topic now. I did NOT create this thread to get into a discussion over whether sampling is music or not (even though I do find the topic interesting, and admittedly posted a bit about it in this thread myself). That's a topic that people feel adamately about, and we'd go round in circles on it all day. I want to steer the conversation back to my original points.
I think 9th Wonder's ideas about how to ride the line between music for profit (pop) and music as art to be fascinating. He seems to say that if you can find a sound that young folks are interested in, you can almost get the best of both worlds - The cred of indie, and the cash of pop. In a very real sense, I think that's EXACTLY what cats like Muddy Waters and Little Walter were doing in the late 40's early 50's. Taking a sound that was resonating with the youth, that was soulful and meaningful, and capitalizing on it. This is, IMO, NOT a bad thing at all, and in fact, I think it's what's missing from the modern blues scene. It seems that mainstream blues, the way it's being played these days just doesn't seem to be connecting with younger people. I think that there is a way to do so, but I'm not sure yet, EXACTLY how to do it. Borrowing ideas from popular genre's of music, like hip hop, seems to be one valid way to try to do this.
I also am VERY interested in the way that he leveraged the internet to launch his career. To me, that's very "modern" way to launch a career, even though he must have been doing that in the early days of net BB's and such in the '90's. I think that the internet IS the way to the youth. But, do a search for "harmonica" in YouTube, and ask it to rank the returns based on number of views. Here, I've done it for you . What's the number one video? Yuri Lane's "Harmonica + Beatbox" with close to 9 million views. Then some random videos, and the next most popular video with real harp content is Canned Heat's "on the road again" with only 2 million views. Then among other things are various instructional vids from our beloved guru's Shellist, Gage, and Gussow. The first real Blues performance is James Cotton with only 972 thousand hits. That's almost 1/10 the hits that Yuri Lane has gotten, and I'll bet that anyone on here is going to agree that James Cotton is about a billion times better harp player than Yuri Lane. But Yuri's style has got the youth appeal, and he's managed to leverage the power of the internet and "viral-ness" to promote himself in a way that no other modern harmonica player has even come close too... Yuri's managed to "put his face on it" (as 9th wonder says) too, and I think that's another reason for his success. His videos portray a kind of street "coolness" that's very attractive to the youth. I'd say the visual aspects of his videos are at least as important to his success as is his mix of beatbox and harmonica....
Anyway, I think that there is a lot to take from this, and I want to steer the conversation back that way... ---------- == I S A A C ==
Musician - A person who is talented or skilled in music: A person who plays a musical instrument, esp. professionally
Music - The art or science of combining vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion. The vocal or instrumental sound produced in this way.
Musical Instrument - any of various devices or contrivances that can be used to produce musical tones or sounds.
He uses a device or contrivance to produce musical tones or sounds and then combines those sounds to produce a form, harmony and expression of emotion.
In his cast the sounds are not original but, the arrangement is original.
In the case of a cover artist the sounds are original but, the arrangement is not original.
I’m very new to the whole making music thing so let me remind many of you that the mixing of prerecorded sounds into an arrangement may seem simple to you now. However, for those of us that are not as experienced, the idea of trying to combine parts of prerecorded songs in a manner that sounds pleasing is a daunting task. In some ways it seems even more daunting than trying to play a series of prearranged notes.
Have you ever heard someone play a tune note for note that didn’t really elicit any type emotional response? You know what I mean, your foot never started tapping and your body never swayed.
Now, have you ever heard someone mix a series of sampled riff together in a manner that had your body swaying and head bobbing?
I don’t care what someone uses to make the sounds that get my heart pumping and my body moving, I’m just happy when they do!
And to the original intent of the post, I haven’t had time to listen to the video. But, if it’s about is one selling out by making pop music.
That’s like asking if mom was selling out by making the kids a chocolate cake. Get’em in the kitchen first. Then push the healthy stuff.
If you think there is a lot to take away from this, what is it? I'm not seeing it.
I watched that Yuri Lane video. It was a very nicely produced video. From a musical perspective, it was nothing exciting.
I did a search for him on facebook. He's got a "group" page there with less than 700 people that "like" it. His viral fame on youtube, doesn't seem to transfer over to facebook.
While certain aspects of his persona may be attractive to the youth, he isn't exactly youthful. He moved to San Francisco in the 70's. That means he's middle aged.
To teenagers, middle aged people typically aren't perceived as cool.
@verylong: Thanks for posting the second video. My comments, as I made crystal-clear, were based on the video that Isaacullah posted. Nothing in that video showed me a musician at work, but rather a producer/composer.
It's certainly possible that the video you've posted shows another side of him. I haven't watched it yet--no time right now!--but I look forward to checking it out.
If Beethoven played an instrument--a piano, say--then he was a musician, too. Many classical composers were musicians, too. But it's quite possible to be a fantastic composer and not much of a musician.
Quincy Jones was an excellent musician and a superb composer/arranger. Some guys do both. But they're not the same thing.
And I'm sure it's possible to be a fantastic hip-hop producer and not much of a rapper or other form of musician.
further on down the road you gonna reap just what you sow.trash talking and garbage will only pollute people.now someone creating sound from any thing from a diddly bow to a sampler and on and on,will be doing a positive musical creation.i look forward to when someone can manipulate a sampling machine and take us on a space trip like Jimi Hendrix did...
First, I always find it quite funny when blues fans criticise hip hop for having explicit sexualised and violent lyrics.
Second, to get back to Isaac's point, I'm in two minds about the Internet and technology. On the one hand it is true that recording music has never been easier, but I'm reminded about a time when DTP suddenly became affordable. There was a lot of discussion by designers and media types about the flood gates opening with poorly laid out, badly designed, home produced newsletters and posters appearing everywhere. It was true - for a while - and then the software people came up with templates, and now the designs look better, but they all look the same!
It's also true that it's never been easier to distribute music - or has it? - I mean the old system had some kind of in-built quality control. Generally if you were good (and lucky and greased the right palms) you got signed. I'm NOT saying everyone who distributes music by themselves is crap, just - is it really as effective a means of getting your work out there as we are supposing it is? Christelle gets a lot of hits on her Youtubes from harp players, but it hasn't translated into the success she deserves. 9 gazillion hits for a giggling baby vs. a few thousand for some top notch harmonica playing. It's too diluted - it has created 'stars' within small niche communities, in the same way that live performance gives people 'fame' in their home towns (and they get to shift some home-produced tapes & cds at their gigs). Nothing's really changed has it? we've just shifted from real communities to virtual ones. Music distribution hasn't been democratised, there's just been a change of dictatorship from the old Politburo of EMI & Sony to Apple's young pretender, iTunes.
@colman & MilesDewar: Now I understand why Isaacullah pleaded that this thread not become a "I hate rap" thread. Where was "F@&$ the police" and "trash talking and garbage" in the video that Isaac posted? I didn't hear any. I heard a smart, interesting, engaged, creative music professional sharing his ideas. As I'm sure you know, lots of people have caricatured and dismissed blues through the years by saying that it's just about "cutting and shooting," "shaking that thing," and talking dirty. I'm sure you'd think that was unfair. Blues deserves better. By the same token, 9th Wonder and Isaac deserve better from you.
Thanks Adam. Yes, PLEASE guys can we keep this on point?
I want to respond a little to what Joe L posted re: Yuri Lane. I didn't realize that he is that old, but I think that that actually reinforces the point I'm trying to make. Age doesn't matter. In fact, your influences and experience don't even matter that much. What matters is that you find a sound that resonates with what is going on today. I think Yuri's managed to do that. Now, I want to clarify that I don't actually care for much of what he does. I think he's well below the level of the other harmonica beatbox loopers like SOD, Dave Ferguson, and our own Brandon Bailey and Zhin. And I mean WELL below them. Regardless, he's managed to translate this style into a relatively huge success. It IS weird that he's only got some 700 facebook fans, and about 2000 myspace fans. However, his music has been heard on national TV shows like "so you think you can Dance?". Also, he's monetized his YouTube videos too. So, let's try to put that into "standard" industry terms: If we take the ratio of 10 plays on youtube = one sale of a single, then Yuri's Beatbox + Harmonica has gone gold. His total views for all his uploads is 14,733,419, which, using our same ratio, if it were an album would have gone platinum. Now, this is a bit conjectural, I'll grant that. I don't know what the real ratio is to translate YouTube success to financial gain. But my point is that he's making a solid go of it! Why isn't any of the excellent trad blues harmonica players even in the same league as that?
I think a clue lies in his viewership stats. Here's a general report that comes up on his Harmonica + Beatbox video:
This video is most popular with: Gender Age Male 18-24 Male 25-34 Male 13-17
Here's what comes up on my most popular performance video (Slow sad blues -- Nov 2009, with 7,959 views), which is a traditional slow blues:
This video is most popular with: Gender Age Male 45-54
In fact, that's the demographic for ALL my videos! I'm just trying to make the point that it's the kids who buy the most records, initiate the most downloads, watch the most videos, etc., and Blues on the whole doesn't seem to be resonating with them right now. I'm also trying to make the point that there is a way to get it to resonate with them, and that's to borrow from the music that IS resonating with them. Namely: Hip Hop, Indie, and Pop. I think a few harp players are doing that, and they are the ones that seem to be having the most success, or at least seem to me to be the ones who are most likely to have success, but I don't think anyone's made the cross over yet. The last harp player to really have done it was probably John Popper, and I think Bad News Brown was well on the way to doing it before he was killed. Who'llbe the next? THAT'S what I'm dying to see!
I hear what you're saying Isaac and I really would like to see it happen too, but there's a flaw - and it's what those links I posted are getting at. Kids do not value music in the same way as us thirty something or middle aged blokes do. Music in the digital age no longer exists in any tangible form - it's just zeros and ones. I really wish I could find the reference now, but I heard of a study where teenagers were asked which of their music they would replace if their iPod was stolen - the surprise most popular answer? none of it. I have walls of vinyl and CD. They have some files on a computer. I used to spend hours - days - trawling second hand shops, record fairs to complete an artist's discography - now I could download it in a matter of minutes. Something that is that easy to obtain becomes disposable. Music has become disposable, replaceable - devalued. I wish I could see Youtube as something more than the equivalent of a vanity publisher, but I'm not sure I can... yet...
Isaac, I don't have the numbers, but there was a lot of speculation in the press with Rebecca Black's crazy one hit wonder Friday. It's quite possible she paid for college with one viral video and Adsense money. Now, it's unlikely anyone will get a hit like that, but if you have a bunch of songs all getting hits, and you turn some of that into record sales and people showing up at your shows, it starts to add up. The trick though, is you never know when something might take off, so you have to get the Adsense in place when you put the stuff up. Put it on all your videos, and have links to monetize more (t-shirts, etc.) A lot of that stuff can be set up so once you do the groundwork it only costs you money when it makes you money. Merchandising can be handled by third parties like Cafe Press, but you have to take the time to get designs for your merchandise ready.
This and the video in the OP, IMO, explain why some are successful and why some aren't in music.
It all comes down FIRST to the WHY, but that is usually the last thing discussed.
YouTube is the 2nd most popular search engine in the world behind Google. The chances of going viral are less than that of winning the lottery.
The key is to find a niche and market to it. The reason that a lot of "great" harmonica videos aren't as popular as others has just as much to do with the WHY than anything else. We tend to make music for ourselves and other harp players. That is the problem. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas VHT Special 6 Mods
Isaac - there are a lot of videos that I have watched many times that I would not pay to see. The Yuri Lane video was one of them. I watched that video four times in at attempt to see what you thought was so great about it. I would not pay to watch or listen to it.
I have a whole folder of bookmarked videos that feature stuff that is entertaining (for a variety of reasons). I would not pay to watch or listen to any of it.
Finally, I'm very aware of the demographics of the Blues listening audience. I spend a couple nights a week in Blues clubs. People don't typically play Blues because they are seeking commercial success.
People that play Blues tend to do it because they are passionate about the genre. I know quite a few players that could make money playing a variety of genres or being a sideman. They choose to struggle to play the music they love.
Good points made by all! Just to clarify, Joe, I think that that Yuri Lane song is terrible. I'm just saying that there MUST be something about it that drew more then 8 million views right? I wouldn't pay to watch it either, but because of Google Adsense, Yuri gets paid when folks watch it (or do they have to click some ad? I'm not entirely sure the way it works, but nevertheless, he gets paid). In a very real sense then, watching his video is like buying his album. Slightly different revenue stream, but revenue just the same.
I feel you on the passion part. That's important! I don't want anyone to be playing music they aren't passionate about! I just am really interested in ways to make that passion profitable. Not for me. I've got another gig that's the main passion in my life - archaeology. But for those who really want to make a go of it with the blues and with harp, I'd really like to see them succeed, which is why I started this thread. Hopefully the message I saw in the 9th Wonder interview and this ensuing discussion will get some folks to think, and then to act. How cool would it be to see one of our own MBH'ers really make it in the biz! That'd be awesome! ---------- == I S A A C ==
Joe L, yeap, and we can make a train song soundtrack and make money! (Isaac, I think it's based just on impressions, not click-throughs, but I'm not sure.)
Personally I don't care if young people listen to or play my music or blues in general or not. The idea of someone like, say Justin Bieber doing blues creeps me out. They have their own stuff, leave them to it.
I think its a bit like martial arts; I'm a traditionalist. I think its important to preserve the source as close as possible to the original. From there, anyone can make what they like of it and adapt it to their needs.I think the 'Californication' and popularity of Tai chi is a classic example; the true art is all but lost.
I think of the blues as the father of all modern music. When it speaks to me at its most powerful, its usually a founding master doing an early classic.
All power to those who transform it into something popular; but for me, popularity is not what its about. ---------- Lucky Lester
This past weekend, I played a new club for me in regards to doing solo tunes. Since it was three sets, I brought a guitar player.
Well, the duo part didn't start as smoothly as I wanted it to, which was more than enough excuse to be timid through the first set in every regard.
There was an ok crowd ranging form 20's to 60's and we stuck to almost all rock or rock-like music. At one point there were two men in their 50's sitting about 4ft in front of me. At the table next to them were two women in their early 30's.
Who do you think I tried to cater to?
***FWIW: With the exception of one song, the solo stuff went really well. I accidently started one song in the wrong key, which was too low for me to sing, but it otherwise went well. People were into it. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas VHT Special 6 Mods
Sorry to continue this, just when you thought the arguing was done.
It think there have been some good points made above (paraphrasing): 1) that "blues" is not currently popular with with the under-forty demographic. 2) that the youth are the main consumers of "music", via the internet, but they don't necessarily value it enough to pay for it. 3) that the youth want to hear/see/consume the products of their own generation. 4) that the youth don't seem to have the same concerns that we older folks do about how the "musical" products they consume are created. 5) that, perhaps, the packaging of such products is at least as important as the "music", e.g. video production, fashion, marketing of side products, etc. 6) that we really don't understand how or why some particular video goes viral, while some others that are superior based on some set of rational criteria (that the viral video viewers obviously don't care about) are ignored.
All this makes it difficult for even the young, talented, and internet-savy harmonica players to figure out how to "make it" through the internet. At present it all seems to be a crap shoot. But being prepared, with AdSense already enabled, seems like good preparation to capitalize, if you hit the viral lottery.
BTW, Brandon Bailey should be about as well positioned as anyone for success among the youth audience. Those with similar ambitions should watch and learn from him. ----------
