Alright. I've finally gotten to the point where I'm tired of running back to turn knobs on my amps to change my tones and effects. Time to put a pedal board together. I'm on a budget, so I'm looking for inexpensive, yet quality pedals.
Basically, I'm wanting five different sub-systems that I can add/remove and control. EQ, Tremolo, Reverb, Echo, and Distortion.
I've found all five of these made by Danelectro. The FAB series Distortion (which I already own), and FAB Echo. For EQ, the DJ14 Fish and Chips 7 band pedal. For trem, the DJ5 Tuna Melt. And for reverb, the Danelectro Spring King with a kick pad to get extra boing when I want it.
I know that almost all of these are budget models, and that Danelectro doesn't have the highest-regarded reputation in modern times. But I've always had good experiences working with their stuff in the past.
If anyone has any other suggestions, please share. Keep in mind I am on a budget, but if there's something so outstanding in one of these categories that I should consider nothing else, lemme know that too and I'll start plugging the piggy bank for it.
If you are looking for budget, then basically you are down to Danelectro and Behringer. Sonce I'm also cheap/broke, they are the two brands of pedals that I own. Here are my impressions:
Instead of the FAB Echo, get a Behringer DD400. I have both, and the Behringer is in a whole 'nother league. I picked my DD400 up at the local shop for $30, which is about the best price you can get online too. The FAB is a one trick pony, and basically can only function as a slapback, but for $10 more, the DD400 has an amazing array of delay times, up to infinite repeats, sample and hold, and tap tempo. It also sounds loads better.
I have the Danelectro Fish and Chips Eq pedal. It is simply great, and you'd be hard pressed to find a better value/money eq pedal out there. Well worth the $30.
I owned a FAB distortion, but could never get it to do anything useful for me, so I gave it to a guitar playing friend.
Don't know about tremolo or reverb pedals by either maker, but comparing the two delay I have, my money is on Behringer for reverb and tremolo too.
I actually have the Behringer digital delay too. t's a great pedal. good versaltility. Sounds almost as good as my MXR Carbon Copy delay. Behringer does make quality budget gear. ----------
I always suggest you should save to buy something quality, instead of buying cheap all up front. I've bought many pedals and I think you will probably try a few before you find something you like. Quality pedals have better resale value.
Realistically, you should be buying the pedals that sound the way you want. That should supersede everything else IMHO.
@sammy: the Artec is called an analog delay, but I found out recently it's actually digital. Not that it matters, but it kind of bugs me that there are so many budget analog delays out there that aren't actually analog. They're digital and "analog voiced." And in some ways they may be better than real analog delays.
On the other hand, I think the Behringer Vintage Analog Delay is a real analog delay.
I have something of an aversion to Behringer anymore. I have to say I've let my eyes linger over the Behringer X V-Amp pedal more than once, but...
Up until about two months ago, my band played through a Behringer X2442USB mixer. The damn thing had more problems than a '72 Ford Pinto. Channels would go out, outputs would crackle and hiss. It was under warranty so the only way to get it fixed was to send it in, which is somewhat out of the question when you have to use the thing on a semi-daily basis. To top it off, we were using JBL EON 500 speakers, which are now Chinese made, and that just added to the frustration. We use a Peavey board now and looking into some Yamaha or EV speakers. But I've seen other Behringer products that gave all sorts of grief to those using them too. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 12:32 PM
you might be interested in a digitech rp. lots of models to chose from. i think all of them have delay and reverb. you can program in at least 20 different combinations and use the foot pedals to switch to the preset you want. if you go that way you may want to check with isaac about some presets he has already put together.
btw- isaac, i am still struggling to get your patches on to my digitech. this is the first time i have cursed my mac!
+1 on the Danelectro Fish & Chips EQ. I gigged one for about 5 years. Only stopped using it when I upgraded my amp and had no more feedback problems. Still have it, still works a treat.
I'd also agree that those Behringer pedal are good value too. I just ordered my third (the US600 harmonist/pitch shifter) - Chinese made Boss clones for 1/3 of the price. Try finding a Boss Dimension-C chorus for the £30 that I paid for the Behringer clone.
I should say that I don't usually play gigs with much more than my EH Holy Grail reverb. With the exception of the Fish and Chips - that got some serious gigging time - most of my pedals are in my "fun at home" setup so build quality isn't so much of an issue.
IMO, get a good pedal to PA to get a good tone. Add a delay. Spend money on quality gear and see if you miss having reverb, tremolo, and distortion.
Any amp sim-type device will give you the gain you need and be easier to use than a distortion pedal, imo. It will also let you eq your sound (you really don't need two pedals for EQ and distortion and distortion pedals almost always end up a nightmare anyways).
Reverb and echo are redundant. You won't use both. Echo is a type of reverb, but you are probably thinking a slapback delay. You won't need both. Reverb causes feedback earlier and washes out your sound, making it hard to hear in the mix.
My suggestion would be a quality harp-friendly tone pedal from Lone Wolf or Tech 21, etc. That is priority, IMO. Make sure it has eq capabilities. Then go for the best delay you can afford. A used Line6 Echo Park would be a great pedal with a lot of options you can experiment with at home.
IMHO, several not so great pedals vs one or two nice ones is a no brainer - get quality gear. Behringer has a horrendous reputation for breaking down. The build quality isn't all that great either. That isn't to say it is bad, but you run the risk of having something that sounds good but isn't reliable.
"Reverb and echo are redundant. You won't use both."
Actually, I get one of my signature sounds by using both, so "never say never"! lol!
You might like one of those multifx units better than a pedal board, so definitely give that a thought! I love my rp 155, and only use my pedals in my street rig because the rp can't be battery powered, so I can't take it to the streets. A good multifx pedal is a real value/money deal, but you gotta take the time to figure it out (as e-harp is discovering!).
By the way, e-harp, if I can get it to play along with Linux, you ought to be able to get it workin on a mac! :) ---------- == I S A A C ==
Delay/echo into reverb can produce a very nice ambiance or dimension in the sound if you do it right. I use both with my Super Reverb (Wampler Faux Analog Echo on all the time into the tube driven reverb tank of the amp on all the time). Gotta use a subtle setting on the delay, though. Of course you can also use long delays into reverb as a special effect. I like the sound of both used in tandem if the amp has reverb. I've never used a reverb pedal with a delay pedal, though. With just pedals, I've always used one or the other.
A quality EQ pedal that has pre and post volume controls and the right freqs can produce very controllable distortion if it's set up properly and you've got the right amp. This is how Slash (the Guns n' Roses guitarist) used to get distortion with his guitar. The MXR 10 band EQ can be used with harp for his application.
I got a DigiTech RP but i couldn't figure out how to program it. I'm usually not particularly obtuse about such things, but the RP is not very user friendly, IMHO.
I always buy used Boss. I also do a little horse-trading. If I can buy a lot of 5 pedals and resell 4 individually I might get the 5th one (the one I wanted) free, sometimes even make money on the deal. 0% for 12 months credit cards help make it happen.
All valid points on the multifx unit, namely the RP155...although I've read in reviews that the distortion effects are not all that great (but I'm assuming most of these were written by guitarists).
But in my case, I honestly think a board would work out better for me. Just knowing what to hit for what effect right then and there, and not having to cycle through presets and remembering what they all have programmed into them....I have ADD, it's not easy for me to keep it all straight a lot of the time, especially when I've got the adrenaline pumping during a gig. lol
@hvyj That's another good point on the EQ pedal. I'm mainly wanting one to control my bass and treble tone. Right now I just don't have enough bass with my present amp. I mean, once it's channeled into the board we can wet it up with some low end. But as for my amp on stage that serves as my monitor, it's just not fat enough.
I will agree that a distortion pedal may not be a good addition to this. The last time I tried using the FAB Distortion, I got SOOOOOO much feedback as a result of the gain boosts.
I'll consider a multi-pedal...but unless I have all the presets written down somewhere, I think it'd only cause me problems. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
@HawkeyeKane: IMHO, the real action for harmonica EQ/tone is not bass and treble, but low mids (240-250 hz). So, I would look for an EQ that allows me to boost 240 hz (or 250). If you want "fat", it's in the low mids. Bass and treble are NBD.
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2011 7:46 AM
IMHO, the Digitech stuff is too hard for me to use live. It is enough of a con that I'd rather pay more for something easier to use. That is speaking from direct experience.
Really, this comes down to live application. Will you be using this at open jams? With a full band? For recording? At home?
There are a lot of things to consider when getting gear. In all these applications, the core tone is the primary concern. For me, I would be fine using my mic straight to PA and eqing there. I am fine getting all the distortion (probably a poor word choice) from my playing and the mic. I can also usually add reverb there too.
If I want an amped sound, then enter the first pedal. I can still add reverb or delay from the mixer...usually. With a loud band, reverb, for me, has been more trouble than it is worth. It adds feedback, washes out the tone, and makes it hard to hear the harp through the mix. Guitar players talk about this all the time too. If I was playing on my own or in a setting where the volume onstage was kept low, then I'd give it a go.
I would still argue that echo/delay is more important and you can fudge a verby sound with a good delay pedal a lot of times. Delay can actually add to the presence of your sound and fatten things up. Reverb sounds great on recordings, but the live application is different. If you play blues, check out what your heroes use. I would bet the majority go dry or use delay and the smallest portion use reverb (live). That isn't to say you can't experiment with it and get great results. I am just arguing that if this is a start-up and on a budget, delay is the way to go.
Really consider how you use the rig and who you are playing with. Know that the louder the band, the harder it will be to dial in your effects and make them useful. IMO, the louder the band, the less gear you should use.
Also, consider the sounds system you will be using and the pros and cons of that unit.
I am 1,000% comfortable going straight to PA pretty much 100% of the time because with my bands I own the PA. When playing with others, I can use a lineout from a powered monitor and control everything I hear on the fly.
If this were me, and I was going to play with a rock or blues band, here is what I would do in order of priority:
1.) Ultimate 57 to the board (where I'd add eq and verb)
2.) U57 to tone pedal to DI to board (where I'd add verb)
3.) U57 to tone pedal to delay to DI
4.) U57 plus full pedal board
Note that something like a SM57 is easy to use straight to PA and dial in. I have no idea how well a typical bullet style CM or CR mic would work...would probably necessitate more gear.
Agreed. The mids are what carries across the punch that makes the tone fat. I guess what I shoulda said was that my tone on stage is kinda tinny. But I want an EQ that's gonna let me tweak on stage should I want a slightly tinnier tone, say for something folky. We play a few songs by Old Crow Medicine Show (who I haven't seen anyone posting about around here even though they do some blues), and the clean tin would come in very handy on Wagon Wheel and Methamphetamine instead of blowing it on my vocal mic.
@Ninja
Something I've mentioned about myself before...my technique isn't what you would call orthodox compared to most blues harp players. I don't play like LW, or PB, or CM. My phrasing and articulation is much more like a lead guitarist. I think a lot of this has developed due to playing with a band that isn't strictly blues, but a mix of classic rock, blues, oldies, folk and country.
And so...since we only play with one lead guitarist and our band leader only plays rhytmic on his acoustic, it's often up to me to fill in the parts of a second electric guitar on a song. For example, For What It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield. Ricky plays the up/down licks and the guitar fillers, while I turn on the tremolo circuit on my amp and blow that high and low chiming guitar part. Yeah, it's boring sometimes...but the song just isn't the song without it.
Point I'm making with this is that since I fill this role a lot in my band, I need to have control of my effects directly at hand (or foot as it were) so I can change when I need to, and not have it in the PA where I can't do a thing. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2011 8:17 AM
Current rig is not my ideal rig, but it's what I have to work with at present...
AMP: Heumannized Kalamazoo Model 2. Love it. Wish it had individual EQ controls like the old Kal Reverb 12's had, but other than that it's a marvel. Greg knows his shit. I had him install the line out on it, I then run that through an equalized DI and into the PA via XLR.
MICS: Peavey H5C Cherry Bomb - I like it pretty well. It needs a better element in it. I have a feeling it's a cheap Chinese dynamic in there right now. But it's got some balls to it. I only bought it because the element on my JT30RH went south, and I know a lot of people can't stand it or the BluesBlaster, but I always got great, ballsy tone out of it. I'm gonna rebuild the JT30 with a more durable element and v/c when I get around to it.
Akai DM13 - Love this thing. Unfortunately it has no v/c which I'm considering remedying here soon. It works well with my Peavey Vypyr amp, but it's a little to hot for the 'Zoo.
Ampex Model 1101 - Just got this in. It has great tone, but like the Akai, a wired in connection with a short line and no v/c. Again, looking to rod and remedy soon.
I also have a Shaker Retro Rocket, but I haven't used it in months. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2011 8:34 AM
Have you checked out any of my full band stuff? I've never played traditional blues harp in a band for more than a gig here or there. My suggestion is a good dynamic mic to a clean-ish amp.
Hvyj and myself have posted numerous times on using effects and effects rigs. I think a mutli-effects unit like a used Line6 M9(or Zoom or Digitech) into the PA, a keyboard amp, or a bass amp, would be a great fit.
For around $300 you could get a POD HD and have all the amp sims, effects, eq, looper, and lineouts you'd ever need.
I think a good "clean" sound will serve you best for that. At SPAH 2010 I was a part of the opening showcase and played originals and covers of Whippin Post and Feelin Alright. I have 9 years of harmonica playing and the first 8 were with rock to blues-rock acts. I am not bragging, but putting my suggestions in context.
I've done a shit-ton of homework down to talking with John Popper about stuff and specialize in being a rock player (although over the last year I've been trying to find a niche in the one-man-band scene, of which I just started gigging out this month). I spent 6 years playing with a guitar player who went to Berkless and McNally-Smith (full ride) and the last year playing with a band full of Berklee and McNally-Smith music grads.
I am a pretty hack harmonica player, but when I need to solve problems, I am relentless and have tons of connections and resources. There is no "cheap" way to play effected rock harmonica and get your sound heard over a band. Even my friend Richard Hunter, who is a huge name in effected harmonica, has spend thousands on gear.
The cheapest route is a good dynamic mic with a multieffects unit (there is a learning curve to all of them) to a clean-ish amp or a PA.
The Line6 M9 (under $300 used) to a powered speaker or keyboard amp will cost well under what a large harp amp would cost and get more mileage. I've tried using full sized amps, and it is just easier and cheaper to do it that way. Plus, the effects sound way better through something other than a harp amp.
The DT stuff is great too, but there is more to fiddle with in real time. It obviously works great for others. The M9 is a pedal board all by itself. You can 6 effects at any time with a selection of over a 100 at any one time.
I hardly post demos of real songs and stick to noodling...I just get anxious infront of a camera, I guess.
I apologize for not having more on stage demos of this stuff. Almost all my band stuff is with just delay on YouTube. I never really thought of that until now. I will post more effects stuff as a one-man-band soon. I have a good setup for demos now, but not the time to do them.
The only thing I don't like about the M13 is the octaver as it farts out with chords. I got a POG2, but it was slow in tracking when I would sing bass lines. The OC2 works better. I sold the POG2 within two weeks of getting it (I only buy used) for what I paid for it. I will get a Micro POG at some point for when I want to play an octaver with harmonica. I left room on my current board for it.
I've had a M9 or M13 for a couple of years now. That and my mic are the only gear I haven't flipped or switched out. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas VHT Special 6 Mods
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2011 8:58 AM
@HawkeyeKane: if variety in your tonal presentation is an important consideration for the music you play, use a harp friendly dynamic PA style mic. Bullet mics may be good for certain things, but they don't do a variety of things well, and variety appears to be what you are after.
Lots of resources and examples here. Again, I don't like the DT layout, but it obviously works really well with harmonica. You can even buy patches from Richard and not have to worry about tweaking. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas VHT Special 6 Mods
These are all good points I'm gonna take into consideration. I have a dynamic vocal mic that I can try using once I get an inline v/c for it. Not a top of the line one, but it'd get me by while I toy around to try and get the sound I want. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
>By the way, e-harp, if I can get it to play along with Linux, you ought to be able to get it workin on a mac! :)
There was some talk on Harp-L about Digitech not supporting OS X Lion. I haven't verified it.
On the other hand I've seen some pictures of the Digitech RPxxx pedals being able to plug into an iPad (garageband) through Apple's camera connection kit. I haven't verified this myself.
You know, it just occurred to me. Probably the best pedal I could hope for, even though it'd take some learning, would be a Yamaha GW10. Guitarist friend of mine uses one with his axes and Fender Bandmaster. They're discontinued now, but have you ever seen one used with a harp before? Mike? Isaac?
http://usa.yamaha.com/product_archive/guitars-basses/gw10/?mode=model ---------- Hawkeye Kane
I'd never even heard of the gw10 before you mentioned it. It could potentially sound good, but I have no idea. If you have a friend that has one, go over and plug into it! If you can get a good sound out of it, let us all know!
Yeah, the M9 that Mike is talking about would be a good thing. One thing we've been discussing over on harp-L is whether or not the new Zoom G3 would sound good for harp. It's only $199, and has separate stomp switches for turning on/off three fx. It's got at least a hundred fx to choose from. If I had the cash, I'd definitely buy one to check out, but unfortunately, none of us has tried one, so we can only read reviews submitted by guitarists (*gasp*), and speculate! :) ---------- == I S A A C ==
@ harpninja: in your list of different setups you have DI box after the pedal, to the board. If the U57 is already low impedance why would you run it through a DI box, which usually converts high to low impedance? Also, pedals are normally high impedance, isn't there a loss of signal running a low impedance mic into them? ---------- Lucky Lester
Mike was talking about playing into the PA, so The DI box is needed for two main reasons - first, to create a balanced signal from the unbalanced one. If the desk is sited a long way from the performer (perhaps via a stagebox/snake) the long cable run involved would introduce a lot of noise unless the signal was balanced. Also a Hi-z line of that length would act like a huge capacitor does across an audio circuit - it becomes a low-pass filter, bleeding off the high frequencies. So High and medium impedance outputs need to be converted to low ones before significant cable runs.
There are also a few reasons why someone would choose an xlr mic input over a 1/4" ts line input on a mixing desk - this was discussed in a recent thread.
I think the U57 can be built Hi-z or Lo-z, and I'm sure Mike is (in this scenario, going into a pedal) either using a hi-z version or an inline transformer.
If connected direct, the board would 'see' the output impedance of the guitar pedal, not the mic.
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2011 10:24 AM
Thanks for your response MrV. I understand the need for a balanced low Z signal to the mixing desk. I was assuming his U57 was low z, as he mentioned running it straight to the PA.
I would have thought using this through the effect pedals would create an impedance mismatch between the mic and the effect pedals (low to hi Z). I also wondered if running a low Z source through a DI box designed to lower impedance would further mismatch impedance. ---------- Lucky Lester
