harponica
11 posts
Oct 06, 2011
5:54 PM
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When will the indestructible harp reed be invented,or at least one that gives you your monies worth?I'm up to my chin in used harps.Lookn for reeds that are tuff as nails.If I want custom combs,or covers I can buy them.Where are the custom manufactured reeds that do give you longevity.I just want to go on Joe Blows web site and buy superior reeds,is that asking too much?
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Todd Parrott
739 posts
Oct 06, 2011
6:18 PM
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Where do you buy custom covers other than wood ones? I haven't found them.
Chris Reynolds has milled his own reeds in the past, lengthwise, but doesn't sell them. But, this doesn't necessarily mean they'll give you longevity.
I'm sure the Seydel fans will jump in and talk about how superior the stainless steel reeds are, but those get out of tune also.
I doubt there will ever be an indestructible reed.
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nacoran
4709 posts
Oct 06, 2011
6:57 PM
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Reeds vibrate up and down, which slowly worries the metal and eventually they will snap. Some metals (steel and titanium) can swing through a few degrees of arc without worrying. As long as they don't go beyond this arc they should theoretically last forever. I have no idea if that arc is less than the swing of a harmonica reed under normal playing conditions though. Stainless steel won't rust unless you scratch it first and titanium is very corrosion resistant, but it's so hard that it chews through most cutting edges pretty quickly, so it usually gets cut with lasers. Unfortunately it has a nasty habit of catching on fire right near it's melting (cutting) temperature, so you need to cut it in an oxygen poor atmosphere, which is kind of expensive.
Now, off topic, there are some neat materials out there with some neat properties that might be fun to experiment with.
Memory metals (nickel/titanium alloys) can be bent in all sorts of shapes and then, when you put them in warm water, they retake their original shape. Would that retune a bent reed? Who knows?
Self-repairing plastics release little resin beads when they are scratched. The resin self seals the scratch.
Liquid metals are used in some high end golf clubs. They are technically a glass form of metals. They have some amazing rebound properties, which help them help you drive a golf ball farther. Better natural reverb on a reed?
Transparent aluminum! It's not just for Star Trek anymore. Alon, a ceramic aluminum alloy, is replacing Lexan as the choice for high end bulletproof resistant glass. Would it work for a reed? Who knows, but it would be see-through! I actually priced some to see if it would be cool for a comb. A block the size you'd need for a comb, before you even got into turning it into a comb, would set you back the price of a custom harmonica, but it could save your life if you happen to have it in your pocket when you get in a fight with a club owner over how much you are supposed to get paid!
How you mill reeds may make a difference. How you play them makes a difference. The best solution I've seen is reeds held on with screws, so at least they are easy for the mechanically uninclined (like me) to fix.
Todd, I have noticed Danneker seems to have their own insignia embossed on their covers, although I don't know whether they order them from a major manufacturer or make their own, and there are the Turbo lids. Of course you can get cheap plastic covers with your company name on them from several manufacturers. You're right though, it would be great to see someone making coverplates in various designs, especially to mess around with the acoustics. I wonder what a jeweler would charge.
At one point I thought about making a casting of a harmonica, reverse mold and all that, to get something hard enough to use to bend some plates around to make my own, more as an art project than a harmonica project, but I got distracted. I also toyed with the idea of messing around with decoupage and seeing if I could apply art to the lids and then seal it so it was playable. I really wanted some harmonicas that looked like candy bars. I just don't have the work space or budget or motivation (and probably not the talent) to get something like that beyond the mad scientist stage. There are whole communities of modders who do things like putting iPods in Altoids boxes. They make it look so easy. How about an Altoid box harmonica?
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Nate
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Todd Parrott
741 posts
Oct 06, 2011
7:20 PM
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Yeah, I've seen the Turbolids. The Danneckers are nice, but are MS.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
731 posts
Oct 06, 2011
7:47 PM
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We milled reeds lengthwise at Harrison. I can tell you this: at the time I got laid off, we had had harmonicas out there for a year. As of that time, we'd only had two reeds blown out. That's it. The same guy blew out both of them. I can't say how many were shipped, but there were a lot out there and only two reeds blown. The reason we milled reeds lengthwise was about the amount precision we had with Brad's method, but it also had the effect of making them last.
BTW, if anybody has a B-radical and blows a reed, Marine Band reeds will fit it.
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
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Last Edited by on Oct 06, 2011 7:54 PM
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oldwailer
1739 posts
Oct 06, 2011
10:00 PM
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I can just hear Barbeque Bob's keys clicking--he's gonna jump in here any second and tell you about too much breath force--so I won't bother with that. . . ;-)
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boris_plotnikov
642 posts
Oct 07, 2011
12:00 AM
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I think stainless steel reed with lenghtwise miling will be absolutely perfect.
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barbequebob
1759 posts
Oct 07, 2011
7:01 AM
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No reed will ever be indestructible no matter what. Too much breath force and bending past the floor of the bend will kill ANY reed fast. SS reeds will probably take more punishment from a very hard player than brass will but both will eventually die out due to metal fatigue and better playing technique will make them last much longer before the fatigue eventually sets in. The late Doug Tate was adament about length wise milling for the very same reason that Dave states for the Harrison harps.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarpNinja
1754 posts
Oct 07, 2011
7:37 AM
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I've fixed quite a few SS reeds that were broken...not just flat, but not playable. They may stay in tune longer, or have a longer life than brass, but I am not sure it is really that much longer than brass. I don't know as I don't blow reeds out very often anyways.
I think there are some issues with SS that parallel brass, but aren't apples to apples. For example, the way SS is usually tuned may create some issues. I don't have any science to explain this, but creating essentially a crater effect to raise and lower pitches has to have an impact on how the reed sounds. With files, you might get a more consistent and aerodynamic reed?
Like with brass, there gets to be a point where the tuning marks leave a very thing spot that also has to not help the reed survive. These thoughts aren't meant to slam either brass or SS.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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MrVerylongusername
1979 posts
Oct 07, 2011
8:08 AM
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@BBQBob (or anyone that might know)
Seydel are still making Doug Tate's Renaissance chromatics - was lengthwise milling of reeds part of his specification? - I know these instruments are handmade to order, but I'm just curious as to who else might be making lengthwise milled reeds.
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harpwrench
533 posts
Oct 07, 2011
9:11 AM
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Check out Franz Chmel's NC64 reeds.
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isaacullah
1617 posts
Oct 07, 2011
10:47 AM
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@nacoran: Re: custom coverplates. I've always thought that coverplate probably have a substantial affect over a harp's tone. If you think about it, it's the coverplates that really make the most substantial resonant chamber of a harmonica. That's why I'm so surprised that there are relatively few choices for aftermarket covers, especially compared to aftermarket combs. Your idea about molding a harp has also occurred to me. Except that instead of using the mold to bend metal into (which would be a pain and you'd need a STRONG mol), I thought of pouring resin into the mold to make covers. Resin has good acoustic properties, so I'd think it might make some pretty sweet covers. Of course, you wouldn't want to drop your harp....
Re: reeds. I'm sure it can't be cheap to mill reeds, especially if you are doing it on a less-than-industrial scale. Plus, if your goal is to imporve your harp's response, you'd HAVE to replace all the reeds on an existing harp. What a pain! It's so impractical! And plus, this is after you've already paid for the original harp, that included reeds already! If your just after replacement reeds for ones that go bad, why would any individual go to all the trouble to mill a new reed from scratch when there are so many dead harps out there to steal donor reeds from? I have a feeling that those are the reasons are why we don't have an aftermarket reed business.
But yeah, I think harp manufacturers are going to start offering a variety of reed materials. Phosfor Bronze was the first, then stainless steel, next who knows? Probably titanium, since that's a material that comes with a big "wow" factor. Can you imagine a titanium reed Manji? That'd be pretty sweet.
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Todd Parrott
742 posts
Oct 07, 2011
10:48 AM
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Pretty cool Joe...
Franz Chmel's NC64 Specs
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harpdude61
1088 posts
Oct 07, 2011
10:55 AM
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I'm with BBQ Bob. Some reeds are better but good technique will make any reed last much longer.
I have a ootb Golden Melody in C that I have played almost every day for over 3 years. Plays fine and in tune...and I overbend constantly.
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Honkin On Bobo
816 posts
Oct 07, 2011
11:02 AM
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nacoran: "Reeds vibrate up and down, which slowly worries the metal and eventually they will snap."
Reeds have psychiatric problems.
I learn something new every day in this forum.
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Tuckster
893 posts
Oct 07, 2011
11:26 AM
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Basically,a reed is a spring. I think it's good for only so many cycles. My guess is it work hardens over time. That makes it brittle and then it either cracks or loses its "spring" or maybe it now has too much spring,but not in the right place. I could see where you'd be very dependent on the people who make the brass or other material to get a good reed. I've heard cryogenic(freezing) treatment improves reeds. Anybody know if there's any truth to that?
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nacoran
4710 posts
Oct 07, 2011
12:54 PM
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Honkin, brilliant... all we need is lithium reeds. That should stabilize them!
Tuckster, there used to be a show called Beyond 2000 that dealt with technology news. They covered that technology and it seemed to have a lot of promise. I had a conversation with Buddha once (I don't remember if it was in a post or in one of the group Skype chats). At one point he had access to a facility where he got to try it. The key with the technology is to freeze it and unfreeze it very, very slowly, so the molecules can realign and don't form any cracks. I seem to remember reading on some custom harp site that they treat their reeds that way, but I don't remember which one, and I have a vague recollection that maybe (and I'm really not sure on this, I am very likely misremembering) that Harrison was looking into this as well. A similar technology is the liquid metals. They don't let the metal form crystals like they usually would.
What I think might someday happen in reed manufacturing is advanced lithography. If you look at the technology they use to make computer processors they are able to get accuracy on levels harp manufacturers can only dream about. You could make complex composite reeds or use carbon nano-tubes or all sorts of crazy things. That's of course assuming they don't replace reeds with air pressure sensors and circuitry. (Okay, it would need a battery to make noise, but it could make pretty much any noise you wanted. Maybe it could even use piezoelectric switches to generate power.) The problem of course is a new microchip plant costs a couple billion dollars to build right now which probably puts it out of Hohner's budget range.
I always try to think of crazy ideas. I wanted to play with magnets and stainless steel reeds. I never got around to it, but Turbo did. They still seem to be doing it on a fairly large scale- a magnet running across the reeds when you press a button. What sorts of neat things could you do with sound if you could, say for instance, embed magnets along the edge of a reed and along the edge of a reed slot to change the frequency or amplitude of a reed? If you made the reed plate with electromagnetic circuitry you could plug your harp in and adjust the current around each reed. You could, theoretically, press a couple buttons on a computer and retune your harp to any key, any tuning you chose. The problem is cost, but circuitry costs are always dropping. You can order custom circuitry cards for a few hundred bucks.
I saw an article about a cool pen the other day that uses an electrically conductive ink. You can literally draw functioning circuits with it. How long before someone hacks a desktop printer to use that? (Consider that doctors are already researching printing organs using ink using living cells.)
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Nate
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MrVerylongusername
1981 posts
Oct 07, 2011
1:20 PM
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I recall reading on Harp-L, a post probably by Rick Epping, that Hohner had experimented with cryo-treating reeds with liquid nitrogen. My memory is hazy but I think the gist was a slight improvement, but one that was not economically viable.
It's been mentioned recently that Chris M heat treated his reeds in a domestic oven. I recall him saying he had family connections in medical/pharmaceutical science, so I bet he had access to some liquid nitrogen too. Again if you trawl the Harp-L archives there's a discussion between Dave Payne and Chris on the subject of heat treatment.
Nate, I love reading your 'crazy idea' thought experiments, but you've got to remember the economics. Harps are (relatively) cheap because they are essentially simple and disposable. Any change to their in-built obsolescence is going to radically unbalance the economics of production.
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bluzlvr
442 posts
Oct 07, 2011
1:59 PM
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I just had the five draw reed on a Special 20 go really flat all of a sudden (at a jam, in front of an audience-ouch!)
I've always wondered why certain reeds that don't get as much stress as others go out first.
Question: Has anybody been able to bring back a reed that was way out, say more than a full step, or is it a waste of time?
I've been filing on it a little, but no joy so far.
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MrVerylongusername
1982 posts
Oct 07, 2011
2:09 PM
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If it's that far out, it's a waste of time. You might be able to bring it up to pitch, but it will drop again after very little playing time
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nacoran
4713 posts
Oct 07, 2011
2:28 PM
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MrVlun, I know, but one of the things about technology is it tends to drive it's own price down. A few years ago a 3D printer would set you back $100K. Now you can buy one for under a grand. The key is to try to piggyback on a technological innovation with broader mass market appeal and then use their technology off the shelf. A couple decades ago having a CNC machine in your home workshop would have seemed like a crazy dream, but people have them now.
As for changing their built in obsolescence, you may have a point, but there is already a lot of talk in futurist circles about how on demand printing of objects is going to change manufacturing. The cost to prototype things is dropping fast enough so that it may be within lots of people's budgets in the next decade or so, and once hobbyists can get draw something up and print it for $50 I imagine a lot of weird ideas will get tested out.
The raw materials for harmonicas are relatively cheap and the basic printing technology is being driven by money in industries with a lot bigger budgets than harmonicas. But I know, a lot of them are just thought experiments. Turbo did come up with a harmonica that uses a a magnetic slide though, and there is a saxophone reed customizer who makes titanium reeds. :)
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Nate
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barbequebob
1760 posts
Oct 08, 2011
6:50 AM
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@MVLUN --- I don't have any real information on that chromatic now that Seydel is making them. You may want to check with Rupert Oysler, who works for them in the US as a sales rep.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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barbequebob
1762 posts
Oct 08, 2011
6:55 AM
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@MVLUN --- I don't have any real information on that chromatic now that Seydel is making them. You may want to check with Rupert Oysler, who works for them in the US as a sales rep.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
733 posts
Oct 08, 2011
7:15 AM
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Bluzlvr,
If a reed is gone that far, it's a complete waste of time.
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
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"It's difficult to think anything but pleasant thoughts while eating a homegrown tomato." - Lewis Grizzard
"Also, drinking homemade beer." - David Payne
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Todd Parrott
745 posts
Oct 08, 2011
1:21 PM
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Silver reeds???
How about plastic??? It's washable.... :)
And plastic reeds are long-life reeds!!! :)
Last Edited by on Oct 08, 2011 1:32 PM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
734 posts
Oct 08, 2011
2:19 PM
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I would think on the silver reeds, they are probably German Silver, which is a copper alloy, just like brass.
The plastic harmonicas came about as a response to the brass shortage during World War II. Never saw one that didn't play like crap. I don't think they actually came out until after the war.
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
Elk River Harmonicas on Facebook
"It's difficult to think anything but pleasant thoughts while eating a homegrown tomato." - Lewis Grizzard
"Also, drinking homemade beer." - David Payne
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sammyharp
134 posts
Oct 10, 2011
12:39 AM
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I'll take that set of silver-reed harps for a dollar!
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
747 posts
Oct 13, 2011
7:27 PM
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Those plastic harps do have nice tone. They are just hard as he'll to play. I've pulled one out and amazed folks, because you can play them like a real harmonica, your just miserable while you are playing it.
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
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"It's difficult to think anything but pleasant thoughts while eating a homegrown tomato." - Lewis Grizzard
"Also, drinking homemade beer." - David Payne
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