isaacullah
1593 posts
Sep 23, 2011
3:25 PM
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I was just reading the thread about the current state of Herring harps, and one of the posters mentioned that his Free Blues was getting better with time, and seemed to need that "break in" period.
I remember hearing A LOT of talk about "breaking in" harps, especially before there was so much info about customization and tutorials about customization out there on the interwebs (not to mention the whole comb soaking debate!). In my experience, I find that it is indeed true that a new OTB harp will improve with usage, but am unsure about what is REALLY going on during this "break in" period that causes this improvement. I have a few hypotheses, however:
1) The common knowledge was that the reeds of a new harp are "stiff", and need to be flexed a bit before they get springy enough to play well. This could very well be true, but I don't have enough knowledge of metallurgy to know for sure if this is even possible.
2) With wooden combed harps, a moisture balance could be occurring in the comb when it absorbs a bit of breath moisture. I assume humidified wood is slightly spongier than dry wood, so after it achieves a proper moisture balance, there could be a better fit between the reedplate and the comb, and thus the harp is more airtight and plays better. One problem with this hypothesis is that it doesn't hold true for plastic combs.
3) All the "gunk" in your saliva is filling in all the gaps and crevices, making the comb fit more airtightly. This works for any type of harp, and actually, if there is gunk in the edges of the reedslots, this could also be achieving the same effect as embossing.
4) You, as a player, are adapting your playing technique to that particular harp, and thus the harp appears to be "playing better".
Personally, I think it's probably a combination of all of these things, but if I had to rank them inn order of importance, I'd say 3, 4, 2, 1. I choose this order because I think it's likely that increased airtightness is probably the most easily sensed improvement one can sense in a harp, and that's why it's what customizers and self-customizers tend to focus on in first stage of customizing harps, and I find it hard to believe that players don't adapt to their instruments over time.
What do you all think?
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Last Edited by on Sep 23, 2011 3:28 PM
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Rubes
415 posts
Sep 23, 2011
3:30 PM
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Couldn't agree more Isaac! Long live (unseen) GUNK!!
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XHarp
450 posts
Sep 23, 2011
4:37 PM
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Hey Isaacullah
As with a car every machine has a break in period. It is the time that allows variations in temperature, moisture and vibration to balance the various parts of the machine to bring it into one working device.
I'd agree with you're assumption that it's the combination of all things that make it more playable. Also, the human factor of getting comfortable with it's characteristics that's the biggest factor.
Good topic!
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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walterharp
704 posts
Sep 23, 2011
6:28 PM
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i am with your isaac....the late great buddha also said he never cleaned his harps for the same reason!
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isaacullah
1594 posts
Sep 23, 2011
10:38 PM
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@walterharp: Yeah, he played on the gunkiest nastiest-looking set of Golden Melodies you'd ever seen! He told me that he hadn't opened them up for any reason in years. He always said that it was the gunk that made them play so well!
@Xharp: Hey man! Long time since I've seen you posting on here... it's good to see ya back! Yeah, I think the car analogy is pretty apt here... I do wonder, though, if that old wisdom about the reeds themselves getting "springier" is true, or if it's more just the rivets getting settled into their positions, and the reeds aligning in the reedslots (plus the gunk!)... I do agree that the human factor probably has quite a lot to do with it!
@Rubes: Hear, Hear! Long live GUNK! ... as long as it's MY gunk... ;)
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nacoran
4666 posts
Sep 23, 2011
11:29 PM
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I wonder if moisture levels could be regulated by keeping your wooden combed harps in a humidor.
At the very least it would keep the harps in the park.
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colman
82 posts
Sep 24, 2011
3:26 AM
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i`ve been breaking in mostly MB harps for 43 yrs.
and i play train chuggin chords no bending notes for a few hours over a few days.then the harp can be honked on like James Cotton if u please...
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FreeWilly
39 posts
Sep 24, 2011
5:02 AM
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Mehh, I'm not sure about the gunk, because not only does it make it more airtight, it also makes the reeds stick in subtle ways.
I presume that Xharp's factor is the predominant one. It's like a car (or a race-bike): parts have to start interacting. I once heard that people use overblowing techniques as a method of arcing. A harp, after a lot of overblowing and bending, does seems to better. My method for squeels or non-overdrawing reeds is: overblowing and drawing on a daily basis. Eventually some do settle in, as the reeds and my technique better. Sometimes I take them apart - not to gap it (which I do on purchase and as I go along) but to flex the reeds slightly by taking a screwdriver along the reed on both sides. This seems to calm down the metal, align the reeds or whatever. It's all common sense really.
Might just be superstition, but loving caressing seems to work on harps as much as on women.
After removing gunk, you might have to repeat the settling-in period, but I do find that my harps sound (and smell..) a lot fresher after gunk-removal. Perhaps that's because the metal is 'ringing' as it once did, freed of the sound dampening goo that once covered it. Plus: rusty screws aren't as tight as new onces.
So stop fooling yourselfs with the goo stories: start cleaning them harps!
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2011 5:20 AM
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Bluzmanze
9 posts
Sep 24, 2011
7:11 AM
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Interesting topic,not seen it discussed with harps.I have been playing drums for years,and most pro quality Cymbals are made from bronze,B-20 which is 80 per cent copper and 20 per cent tin,and in my experience they definitely play or age in,I can tell a difference in the first month,and some have taken as long as a year and a half or two to fully mellow out,after that they keep mellowing,but at a much slower rate.Up until a couple of years ago I played primarily Lo's and Sp 20's,but bought a Suzuki blues master in A,and noticed it was quite a bit brighter than the others,especially when played thru a mic through a PA dry with no effects.Now the suzuki,while still brighter,seems to have mellowed and I don't hear as much of a difference.I wonder since the S has bronze reeds if that made a difference.
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isaacullah
1596 posts
Sep 24, 2011
11:40 AM
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Great insights guys! I'm especially intrigued by the added info from Bluzmanze about cymbals. That adds some credence to the idea that the reeds themselves are changing at a metallurgical level, which is quite intriguing!
@FreeWilly: I do agree that gunk in the wring places can have a negative effect on tone. I remove gunk from inside the chambers (with a plastic toothpick) on a regular basis. It's this gunk that can lodge up in a reedslot and cause a stopped or buzzing reed. Also, gunk build up on the reeds themselves can cause a reed to go out of tune. But I think gunk in the crevices where the reedplates meet the combs is a good thing, and a little gunk on the edges of the reedslots is probably helping too. But I agree that it can easily get to be too much gunk in that area...
@nacoran: That's a very interesing idea! I know that they sell special "humidifier" things to put in acoustic guitars so that the don't deform when it gets dry. I don't do that with mine, and I've noticed significant changes in the way it plays with the seasons here in AZ... Plus, a small humidor is the right size and shape to put harps in... not to mention super cool looking! Especially if you also play cigar box guitar (like me)!
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gmacleod15
140 posts
Sep 24, 2011
3:49 PM
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I have thoughts on this a well.
I don't know why but my Lee Oscars are much better then when I first bought them. At first they seemed to leak air and were hard to bend. Now they play much easier. They were some of my first harps so maybe it was just my playing technique....but maybe they are broken in.
I know my skills have improve but I also think the harps are more playable...for what ever reason.
BTW I play mostly Suzuki's now.
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MBH member since 2009-03-24
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2011 3:52 PM
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chromaticblues
1016 posts
Sep 24, 2011
4:42 PM
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First I'd like to say I always enjoy your post isaacullah. I love these type of well thought out posts. Something that really does matter!
I love Marine Bands and take them apart trying to make them play better. I always put them back together with the nails it was put together with. Why?
Because you shouldn't keep taking your harp apart. They are made to play not compulsively fiddle with! They do get better with time! This is very tricky because this does not happen for everyone (yes I have a very boring life so I think about this crap all the time). I have taken apart old Marine Bands and before I cleaned them I always hold them up to the light. What I found was the slots were closed in closest to the rivets and the futher up the reed the less gunk there was. Well I have done alittle trial and error with putting chapstick inthe same spot and embossing the erea without embossing the rest of the slot. Holy Molly! What a difference. You see what happens is the more you emboss up the slot to the reed tip the more it changes the tone. It really is the exact opposite of what most people think. I have done many experiments trying to recreate the playabilty of an old harps that have not been customized.
I read one post awhile ago that Boris said he embossed his harps in a V shape and I didn't know what he meant untill I worked on some harps for a forum member that had an old C harp. I had to play it just to see if it was worth working on. It was Funky and a couple reeds were stuck, but MAN did that thing play like gold once I scrapped the funk with a .002 feeler gauge.
OK the moral of that story is YES without doubt does the funk keep the music alive!
As far as breaking in Marine Bands goes Yes the comb is also a big part of it. When I buy new Marine Bands if they don't play very well I take them apart and don't think twice. The reason I do this is to go around the break in period. If I sand the comb and drawplate flat then soak the comb in mineral oil. Then put it together with the straighten out if need be. Well what is happening is I'm taking out the russian Rullet part of playing the Marine Band and its break in period.
OK one more thing. I have no way of proving this, but this is what I think happens during the "break in period". People that just wail on there harps and don't treat them as a musical instrument damage the reeds before they "loosen up". Again I don't know what the hell happens, but I have noticed harps seem to have sweeter sounding bends after a couple months of nonabusive playing.
As far as rating these things. I guess I would put setting the reeds correctly first. Then the comb. The comb on Marine Bands is a big issue and always has been.
Ok thats enough!
Great post!
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groyster1
1429 posts
Sep 24, 2011
5:50 PM
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hohners tiny piece of paper,which is a little better these days,says to play softly for 1 week so I try to trust their judgement same with suzuki they make these tin sandwiches so surely they know what they are doing
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528hemi
228 posts
Sep 24, 2011
8:13 PM
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Try dipping your harmonica in "fix a leak radiator sealer" That should fill those gaps nicely. :)
528hemi
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XHarp
451 posts
Sep 25, 2011
4:06 AM
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Just a note on Bluzemanze's cymbals. They change at a molecular level because you are hammering them. Any metal physically struck will change over time under that stress. I think that Cymbals become fuller sounding as the metal reacts to the impacts, and vibrations within the metal " smooth" out as compression of the surface begins. Harps don't usually endure the same treatment during play so I wonder if harp reeds change at a molecular level?
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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isaacullah
1599 posts
Sep 25, 2011
10:00 AM
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@chroaticblues: thanks man! I always read your posts too, as I find them very informative. That's a really cool idea about embossing only the rivet end... It makes sense too. I gave up on embossing quite a while ago, as I never really felt it was worth all the trouble. The most difficult part to get right for me was always the free end of the reedslot (too easy to take it too far), but that's a non-issue with what you are suggesting. I think I'll try it out and see what it does! Thanks!
@X-harp: Interesting... I know that a reed continues to change pitch for a few days after you tune it. That's why you always have to go back in and fine-tune it after a little while. I've always been curious as to why this occurs. Perhaps the pressure and friction heat of the file on the reed is doing something at the molecular level to change the density?
@528hemi: The radiator in my truck is full of the stuff right now. Perhaps I should put all my harps in the antifreeze reservoir and drive around a bit? ;)
@groyster: I've always wondered if that advice on the slip of paper was more to keep inexperienced players from blowing out a reed in the first week than anything else. It would make sense that Hohner et al. would be sick of hearing "I've only had this for ONE week and it already is broken!". With that note they can say, "Well, we TOLD you to play it lightly for the first week!"
@all: I had another thought about what could be happening. I know that once I set the gaps in my harps, they continue to settle in over time. My procedure for gapping is to flex the reed multiple times with my gapping toll until the gap is a little WIDERI than where I want it. Then I plink it for a while, and the reed settles back down to where I wanted it initially. Then, after playing it for a week, I always have to go back in and do it again, because the gaps settle even further.
Perhaps, that's also what's happening during the first week or so of playing a new OTB harp? They always set the gaps WAY wide in the factory, so if the gaps close down a little over time, the harp would begin to play a lot better. Couple this with some of the other things that are going on (gunk, learning curve, moisture balance, etc.), and it would add up to a really noticeable improvement after a couple of weeks of playing.... It's sort of like the harp is "customizing" itself!!!
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Bluzmanze
11 posts
Sep 25, 2011
11:14 AM
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@XHarp,agreed,cymbals are subjected to additional stress that harmonics are not,so a direct comparison is not probably possible,your comment on compression/ surface tension is food for thought,one cymbal company that offers "pre aged cymbals" say that they use a process that decreases surface tension to achieve that end and they do sound warmer and broken in.On another note,as long as we are comparing,I have also owned and compared snare drums made of brass to ones made of bronze,a little different situation because in this case the actual metal is not being struck,and most of the sound is being created from the drum heads,but the shell of the drum is still vibrating/resonating and adding some color to the sound,just like I imagine the reed plates comb and covers do on a harp.I have compared brass and bronze from the same manufacturer and while very similar,the bronze ones are usually a little warmer and darker than the brass,and in my experience these drums do mellow over time,although it takes a much longer time than it does for cymbals.When I was researching Suzuki harps online,I read that the harpmaster was brighter than the bluesmaster,and with(correct me if I am wrong) the comb and reed plates being identical,and the difference being the cover plates and the brass versus Phosphor bronze reeds,my experience with drums made me theorize that the blues master would be a warmer,but I was still surprised to see how much brighter it was initially compared to my SP 20's and LO's,considering that all 3 utilize a plastic comb,brass reed plates and steel covers.What I am getting,from reading on this forum is that Harps,like drums, while being pretty simply constructed,with not a lot of moving parts can still be complicated little gizmos,and that the sum of the parts can be greater than the whole.
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groyster1
1432 posts
Sep 25, 2011
2:13 PM
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@issacullah
you might be right but tend to get a lot of mileage out of my harps BUT I do own a lot of them some 30+ years old
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FreeWilly
40 posts
Sep 25, 2011
3:36 PM
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@Bluzmanze: that's all interesting stuff. I like to think of the harp as a living thing that has its own character, ages and all that. Just for you info: vented vs unvented coverplates are a huge factor in brightness also. That's the reason why Manji's sound so bright. And it's one of the reasons I like SP20 over any other harp!
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groyster1
1433 posts
Sep 25, 2011
4:42 PM
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@FreeWilly
I own about 60 harps about 20 of them are sp20 the only way you can know if you like a harp is to buy it you cant test drive I always come back to sp20s the best value for harps tho hohner and suzuki have great models that most anybody can settle on
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LittleBubba
104 posts
Sep 26, 2011
8:03 AM
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Every model of harp has its own characteristics, and every individual harp as well, but I use a few Vintage Herings and I've found that I have had to rotate them into my case over time, and that includes warmup sessions with them in practice when I have no intention of using them. It allows me to utilize their best characteristics without overstressing them early in their life.
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XHarp
452 posts
Sep 28, 2011
6:42 PM
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Isaac, I think that there is not likely enough heat from filing to change the molecular structure. Heat treating at 550 degrees or annealing at 750 degrees for sure. That's what is actually happening. As far as from tuning, I think it simple flexibility of the reeds. After you file something you change it's thickness which changes it's flexibility. As you play it it becomes more limber and vibrates faster. Hence, change in pitch.
I don't think it's too complicated or is largely the result of molecular change.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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isaacullah
1607 posts
Sep 29, 2011
10:53 AM
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@Xharp... Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually. The flexion of the reed is changed, and that takes some time to settle in. RE: heat-treating. I know that the late great Chris Michalek used to heat-treat all the reedplates he worked on. He'd coat them in mineral oil, and put them into his oven on the "self-clean" cycle, and then let them cool down to room temperature. He claimed that this "evened out" the reed response. Is there any science to that?
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XHarp
453 posts
Sep 29, 2011
4:56 PM
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If you read about heat treating, the ideal temp for different metals varies based on the alloy. Bronze used for most musical instruments is heat treated or stress relieved at about 550 F. Above that it starts to anneal or become hard and brittle.
The oil coating would have slowed the absorption of heat as it burned off allowing the annealing process to come about gradually. There may be some additional benefit to it but you'd need a metallurgist or mech eng to answer that
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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