I wanted to raise this question after hearing some very fine players recently, (names and places will be left out). What I heard was some incredably talented players that could run rings around me with their blues playing.
But when a minor tune came up, what I heard was not impressive at all. In fact, I had the distinct impression that they did not know the tune a minor tune nor what to do. I kept hearing the same "blues licks" being used, but they just didn't fit into that tune. Likewise, when I heard tunes that cried out for a major pentatonic scale, I heard the same "great blues licks" being shoved into a song where they did not fit.
I have been impressed/depressed/puzzled how some people can be so very good, but only in a narrow genre, and not take time to learn "more than one trick"
Have you met, or are you a "hotshot with a weak spot"?
---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2011 7:25 PM
I am a hot shot with a weak spot. I can play things using a ton of technique and I can BS my way through some of a lot of things, but I find it extremely difficult to come up with things to play when not playing with a band or trying to sound really bluesy.
In otherwords, I am horrific at riffing and playing totally solo blues pieces. I can do enough to fool an audience, but have nowhere near the blues harmonica chops I should. While I LOVE blues music, I stick out like a sore thumb. I guess what I am getting at is I can playback what other blues players do, but I can't string it together when improving. I do a horrible job of playing blues like a blues harp player for more than a few songs or progressions. I am talking really really good blues playing where the riffs are clever and follow a great progression over chord changes. I can cliche with the best of them, but I can't do anything as hip as Dennis Gruenling, and I don't have the patience to learn how.
But if you wanted to cut heads playing something rocks or gets funky...But how many bands want harp players like that??? ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2011 7:40 PM
sounding pretty superior, jim. fyi- there aint a person alive that aint got weak spots, whether it be in their hobbies, which harp is to the vast majority, or their chosen profession.
but, hey, my knowledge of weak spots could be my weak spot, huh? sorry to add to your depression.
I dont think im a hotshot but i do need to work on 3rd position and minor tunes in general. I'm a sucker for 2nd position. I feel so comfortable in 2nd that i end up staying in 2nd which i know i shouldnt do.
I do work on 3rd sometimes but not nearly as much as i should:o( ----------
For the life of me, I can't memorize recordings. I don't ever want to be the kind of guy who'd perform "Juke" or whatever note for note. But at the same time, I hear over and over that learning classic solos note for note can improve your playing and your "vocabulary." Still, for the life of me, I can't do it. :-(
I was afraid it may sound that way, but that was not my intention. There are a few points of encouragement that I am tryng to get across.
Variety is an important assest if you plan to play in public. It does not take a lot to learn the basics that will help you out of a jam.(or in a jam) I firmly believe that every harp player needs to play :
(1) some straight harp tunes, (2) blues tunes with bending) (3) major pentatonic scale (4) minor tunes with at least one of these 3 methods ...(a)2nd position with a a good 3 hole bend ...(b)3rd position scales ...(c)5th position scales
I think I know what you're talking about Jim. The classic "one trick pony". I don't want to be that guy either. @ this point, 2nd position is definitely my comfort zone. But I can do some 1st position tunes ok. And I've really been working and starting to groove on 3rd pos. My goal is to not only be able do blues harp & have people say "Oh man was that good or what?". But to be able to squeeze out some good jazz horn & sax fills, or celtic reels & jigs that will elicit a joyful response from anyone within earshot also.
I know a lot of musos have their genre' & that's it. Fine for them. But for me, my weak spots drive me on to be more than a OTP.
I HATE straight harp. Fogiest sounding thing in the world. If I don't want to use it that's my business..... Or I just play straight harp with overblows........... If someone tells me to play straight harp sounding stuff I say No, "You go play it". A buddy of mine does this to me.
but there is one thing. folks are into harp for various reasons: wanna play popper or dylan or sonny boy or ricci. sure many would like to become total masters but they dont have the time or discipline to achieve those goals and are happy/content to be where they are. and, i will assume you got your list covered, what a master decides other people need to do means nothing to those that are comfortable in their zone. it could be a nice wake-up call to those of the 1 trick pony gang.
*please dont read this as a personal criticism. though i am in the mood for a good argument, i would prefer to save it for "why aint we having peach pie for dessert."
Jim... I know what you mean.. that's why I like such a wide diversity of music... from blues, to folk, to country, to jazz, to rock (within reason--hate heavy metal as it hurts my brain and logical senses), to pop, to classical.
I never started as strictly a blues player, but more country and striving to play "melodies" more than just playing licks and improvising.
I would hear a song like Sam Cooke's "Far Away Places", and want to play it, whether it was in 1st position or 2nd position, as long as it sounded good.
My truest harp heroes are the ones that can play pretty much anything that they desire to play... I, myself, can not play anything that I do not desire to play.
Harpers like Norton Buffalo (you are missed!) , Charlie McCoy, Buddy Greene, Carlos del Junco, Peter "Madcat" Ruth. PT Gazell, and Brendan Power are the finest examples off the top of my head... I would not hesitate to buy any of their recordings, and truely enjoy them all, even though I could not probably ever play like any of them, but they exemplify the diverersity of what the little diatonic harp can do!
@HarpNinja:"I find it extremely difficult to come up with things to play when not playing with a band "
There's a reason for this. so much of what we play on harp with a band sounds good in relation to the chord tones the band is playing which provide a musical context for many of the notes we play. take away the chord tones being played by the band and some of this stuff that otherwise sounds good doesn't sound all that musical standing on its own.
@Jim Rumbaugh:"But when a minor tune came up, what I heard was not impressive at all. In fact, I had the distinct impression that they did not know the tune a minor tune nor what to do."
This is because 3rd position is NOT the answer for playing natural minor blues. Also, minor key PHRASING is very different and one cannot bend freely playing minors or the player will be taken out of key. So, to play minor, you've got to work with NOTES, not blues licks and bends.
To handle natural minors competently a player needs to be able to get around in BOTH 4th and 5th positions and choose the right one for the particular natural minor tune being played. Harmonic minor requires 4th position. 3rd position only works well for Dorian minors. BUT Dorian is also playable in 5th position. So, you can play 5th for certain Dorian material and you use 5th for tunes that modulate between Dorian minor and natural minor.
Too many harp players try to force fit 3rd position over ALL minors.
2d position is problematic for most minors Doable? Yeah, sometimes. Personally I'll only play minor in 2d position for "Miss You" and "Long Train Runnin". Playing minor well in 2d position is very difficult and presents a lot of practical problems. Most harp players who claim to be able to it usually wind up blowing major 3rds and major 6ths all over the place which sounds like shit.
The major pentatonic scale can be used effectively in different ways. Now, keep in mind that the MAJOR pentatonic scale of a particular key has the same notes and same breath pattern as the MINOR pentatonic scale of the RELATIVE MINOR KEY of that same major key. This enables you to modulate between major and minor (playing in 2d position for major and 5th position for minor) on the same harp using the same scale. Good guitar players do this regularly. If you know how and when to use it, it's a nice addition to one's bag of tricks.
I can stay in minor keys all night long and regularly play gigs where I do just that. Sometimes on gigs like that, harp players in the audience will come up to me on a break and ask where I buy my minor key harps and what kind of minor key harps I use. When i tell them i don't use any minor key harps, they almost always look confused and usually seem disappointed. As a matter of fact, I've never even owned a minor key harp.
Btw, my personal weak spot is 1st position playing. I can do it, but I'm not that good at it. i need to work more at it, but I don't work at it like i should.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2011 6:41 AM
I think I get the tone of this post, and I don't see any reason to stir the pot and go after Jim. Everyone has weaknesses, but I think there are people who exploit a niche and people who are really well rounded.
Honestly, I know more "famous" niche-fillers than all around technicians. This is a very relevant topic. For those wanting to perform at a high level, finding a niche (and hiding weaknesses) may be of benefit. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
@hvyj I have no disagreement with anything you said.
But my concern was not as complex as you described. Had I heard 3rd position, I would have been happy. I am surprized at the fine players that I have heard, that are unaware how to approach a minor tune, unless they have a minor tuned harp. I consider that a weak spot. Let me add, I am not against minor tuned harps. They have some advantages, but when I hear major 3rds in a minor tune, or see good players refuse to play due to lack of knowledge, I find it sad. ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2011 12:19 PM
@Jim Rumbaugh: IMHO, too many harp players are more hardware oriented than music oriented. Why? Because the reality is that a whole lot of diatonic harp players don't understand much about music. If they can hit a clean single note, are able to draw bend, and know what key harp to pick up for playing in 2d position, they are kinda sorta able to play blues and it's actually pretty hard for them to hit any really bad notes doing that (unless they start blow bending in 2d position). So they learn patterns instead of music and those patterns just won't work for playing minors unless you buy minor key harps (different hardware). Their ignorance is bliss--except for the audience and the other musicians in the band.
Musicians who play other instruments routinely learn to play their instruments in more than one key. Playing harp in multiple positions is simply being able to play the harmonica in more than one key. But a whole lot of harp players make it seem like it's something mysterious or difficult to do even though it's not. You just need to understand scales and the relationship of scale tones to chord tones which is pretty rudimentary musical information. But I am under the impression that many harmonica players choose to play harmonica in order to avoid learning rudimentary music. Go figure....
I mean this stuff ain't rocket science. Personally, I'm self taught with the help of stuff I've picked up over the years from other musicians and, frankly, i don't have that great of an ear to begin with.
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2011 1:01 PM
Jim is being too modest here: the judges at the WV competition, in which he was enrolled as a non-eligible-for-prizes competitor, were extremely impressed by his verion of Santana's minor-key classic, "Black Magic Woman." It's not a song I'd ever had occasion to play (or woodshed on) before I got up and, inspired by Jim's performance, semi-mangled it during the evening jam session. I've learned my lesson and will continue to revere Jim as the master of minor-key Latin-rock/blues. Great tune! It should be part of every good harp player's jam-session songbook.
Edited to add: Jim's basic point, or what I take to be his basic point, is sound: as a harp player, especially one hoping to get work, it's good to have a diversified musical portfolio. If jam sessions are where you want to prosper, figure out what the common-stock repertoire is and take the woodshed time to learn it. If you have even the slightest interest in things other than blues--i.e., jazz, funk, country--spend some time listening to and learning songs in those idioms. Even if you strongly prefer one specific type of blues (Chicago / West Coast blues, for example), devote some part of your musical education to other versions of, and extensions of, the blues. Every step you take outside the box will support you in taking further steps.
There's a corollary to this, though: follow your bliss--which is to say, life is short and you need to spend time on playing the music that you care passionately about. You also need to figure out who you are and aren't as a player. Don't try to be every player: be yourself. Phil Wiggins doesn't try to be Dennis Gruenling--ripping off heavily amped 3rd position Chicago/swing chrom blues instrumentals--and he'd almost surely fall down flat if he did (unless of course he has a past we don't know about as an amped-up chrom player). Nevertheless, a guy like Phil might conceivably find himself at a harmonica event where, for example, his host expects him to do something like this. This could put him in an awkward situation. This could put any of us in an awkward situation.
I write about a related but not identical situation in JOURNEYMAN'S ROAD when I talk about an evening, many years ago in the Harlem clubs, when I got up and played a jazz tune--or tried to--that I didn't really know. I got my ass handed to me. Or rather, I voluntarily handed my ass around, pre-chopped. Later, a soul singer who was a very nice guy took me aside, waited for me to say "I fucked up," and then said, "Yeah, well, you sorta did, but here's the thing: Never let somebody make you do something that ain't your thing." Meaning: there will surely come times on the bandstand when you're expected to move outside your comfort-zone in a way that will require a judgment call. More than that: sometimes you need to recognize not just that your professional training hasn't prepared you to play what is about to go down on the bandstand, but that that is OKAY, and that the professional's move is to step aside and/or sit down. This experience may lead the player to go home and say, "Hey, I really SHOULD learn that." Or it may lead the player to say, "I've always loved 'Giant Steps,' and I'll always respect diatonic players who can play it, but gee whiz: My thing just ain't that."
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2011 4:02 PM
@HarpNinja:"I find it extremely difficult to come up with things to play when not playing with a band "
I have exactly the opposite problem. I have a lot of things I can play for solo harp, but every time I go to play with a band or even with someone else, I can't think of anything good to do. That's my (major) weak spot. It stems from the fact that I do all my woodsheding and performing as a solo act. I hate playing along to jam tracks and recordings, but I don't have enough time to go to jams or to get together with a band and play. I want to do it though... But writing the dissertation comes first! :( ---------- == I S A A C ==
Since Adam brought up 3rd position chrom and lately I've been making an effort to learn to play chrom, I can't resist passing along this tale of being more hardware oriented than music oriented:
True story: there's this reasonably competent harp player who regularly shows up at a local blues jam and plays chrom pretty well. So, having just bought a Suzuki SCX-48 i thought I'd ask this guy for a few pointers. So we start talking and he really likes the slide action on my new Suzuki. Then I ask him how he went about learning the breath and button patterns on chrom for the various keys he plays in. He assures me that it's no problem and certainly not difficult--he opens his anvil style briefcase sized harp case, and shows me a set of 12 Hohner chromatic harmonicas (one in each key). He explains that he learned the blues scale in 3rd position and then confides that the secret to playing in different keys is just to memorize the intervals between those notes and switch harmonicas when you want to change keys. I mean seriously.
After i got over my initial astonishment, it was all i do to keep a straight face and politely express my appreciation to him for sharing this gem of musical wisdom--after all, it would never have occurred to me to go to the expense of acquiring that much hardware to avoid learning to play a C chrom in more than one key. I mean the E blues scale on a C chrom is pretty easy, so who in their right mind would buy a separate chrom in D just to play that? Unless, of course one never bothered to figure out the E blues scale in the first place. I guess the moral of the story is why learn music when you can buy hardware.
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2011 5:36 PM
one thing that does bug me is , if i turn up for a jam night with either harps ,guitar or both , some people naturally assume i'm there only to play a generic blues or generic rock n roll . it's like if i get the gretsch out , they think all i want to play is rockabilly riffs along with something like mystery train for example . same if i get the harps out and they think ,oh let's play something easy so he can just blow some tired old licks to . recently we had a sax player join us for a song , and i stayed up for whatever they wanted to throw in the pot . they chose Marvin gayes's let's get it on because the sax player could noodle all over it , without blowing my trumpet , they were quite surprised when i could match everything he was playing , until we were trading parts batting back and forth , ireally enjoyed playing it , and was a lesson in holding back and feeling the song , , the sax player who i've known for a while came up to me afterwards and said " i never thought you played like that ?" I said well why not ? after all i don't just listen to blues and rockn rol all the time just because i look like i should ! at the moment , i'm trying to learn country picking on guitar , I'll never need to totally master it , just have enough to hold my own and add it to my blues or rockabilly playing to give it a country flavour if the song requires it . I would never say i'm better than anyone else , far from it , but i have a good pair of ears and theyr'e the most important part of anyone's musical equipment ! you can spend money on the best gear ,but if you can't listen to what's going on , then start now!
hvjy, I have to totally disagree with your opinion about 3rd position not working for natural minor tunes. That's simply not true, I play natural minor in 3rd position all the time. I know you're not an OB player which is probably the reason you think this. In the first octave you can easily play the 3rd position natural minor scale without overblows (assuming you are competent at bending). In the middle octave all you need to do is play the 6OB instead of the 7draw.
Even if you don't OB you can still still play natural minor tunes in 3rd. You just need to make sure you avoid the 7draw and the 3draw natural. Make sure you hit the 3 draw bent a half step (you'll also use the whole step bend on the 3draw).
Everyone have weak points. Actually weak point is the thing you want to do, but you can't do it enough good. I can follow chord progressions, but chord progression with numerous changes of tonal center (e.g. All The Things You Are, On A Green Dolphin Street, Giant Steps) is my real weak point, as I want to do it well but I can't. I maybe not great in traditional blues stuff, not great in traditional bluegrass stuff, in traditional russian stuff, but I can play it way I like and I don't feel is as my weak spots, I just not deeply interested in being perfect blues player. I also believe that if I will need to be perfect blues player (payed regular job with blues band) I can become a nice trad blues player in a year or so. While following complex chord progression seems less easier for me.
---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2011 11:57 PM
@REM:"Even if you don't OB you can still still play natural minor tunes in 3rd. You just need to make sure you avoid the 7draw and the 3draw natural. Make sure you hit the 3 draw bent a half step (you'll also use the whole step bend on the 3draw)."
Sure, one can play 3rd position for natural minor. I've dome it occasionally. But I just find that the available phrasing is much more limiting than what can be done using 5th or 4th position. I don't think one can play NM as fluidly or as gracefully in 3d position as one can in 5th or 4th.
IMHO there are more and arguably better phrasing options available playing NM in 5th or 4th. Because of that, I think one can be more creative using 5th or 4th instead of 3rd. But it is certainly possible to use 3rd and I agree that the 3D** can sound pretty cool. But, yeah, I don't OB and that does limit my approach in certain respects.
"I have a lot of things I can play for solo harp, but every time I go to play with a band or even with someone else, I can't think of anything good to do."
You know, people who play by themselves all the time not uncommonly experience difficulty playing with others. To play with other musicians, besides fitting in with what the other instruments are playing, one has to keep track of the particular chord progression and stay in the structure of the meter which one is not constrained to do if playing alone.
This isn't unique to harmonica. If you ever go to an "open mic" instead of a "jam" and try to sit in, you'll inevitably come across some singer/guitar players who have no idea how to play with another musician because all they do is sit around the house strumming and singing by themselves and never develop the structured musical discipline that is necessary for ensemble playing. There are also some would be harmonica virtuosos on you tube who post very flashy solo harmonica improv that sounds impressive, but would not work musically if they were playing that way with a band.
So, yeah, playing with other musicians requires a distinct skill set independent of the creative process involved in thinking up something to play.
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2011 2:02 AM
At a certain level, if you already play the harmonica "harmonicky" (sounding like harmonica players usually do = riff/lick based), the next level may be to play the harmonica as a musical instrument independent from falling into patterns that work because of how the harmonica is laid out. This means learning where ALL the notes live (ALL the notes that you play comfortably - if you don't OB, it is not a requirement for you) and then playing the notes as notes. This way, you can start to use ideas or concepts from other instruments and apply them to the harmonica. ---------- The Iceman
I'm comfortable playing improvisationally/melodically with multiple styles of music when in 2nd Position(my default for anything, including minor tunes) or 3rd position...but if cornered to play fluidly in 1st postion-I suck at it. BAD. I just haven't worked at it enough to have any level of comfort. I should force myself to listen to those who are good at 1st position blues and work on it myself.
Oh, and although I don't really miss it since I played for a long time before even knowing overbends even existed, I still don't use them or even practice them. So, if forced to play in a chorus of overbenders, I'll be the odd man out. ---------- Todd L. Greene
I played with many bands over the years! sometimes whole gigs without rehearsal or even meeting band members beforehand! i could hear a song and it would inspire my playing or i would copy the guitar licks or vocal lines! i was in my element with a blues band confident in my abilities...............but i have now left that world and started playing solo for fun! and i now realize i am not as good as i once thought! i still get applause from friends ect but i know this is my weak spot!!...for now.LOL...work in progress.
i played mostly second, occasionally third for a long time. but my last band played a number of tunes that i just couldn't make work that way. this provided the impetus to figure out first position, and it opened up a whole bunch of songs that never sounded right before. i mentioned this to an online friend, and he said that he'd been concentrating on first position to train himself to not rely on bending for expression.
funny thing about harp: the more i learn, the more i don't know.
"sure many would like to become total masters but they dont have the time or discipline"
Twenty minutes a day. If you can devote 20 minutes a day to practicing on a consistent basis, you can accomplish quite a bit. The 20 minutes part is not as important as the daily part. If you can do it pretty much every day, it's really surprising what you can get accomplished.
For a good many years i was ignorant about WHAT to spend time working on. But with the info freely and easily available on the web these days, that should no longer present a significant problem for anyone.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2011 7:04 AM
I 100% agree with hvyj. I hardly get more than 15-20min a day to play, but I usually find a way (typically when I am done working on harps for the night, or while watching the kids play before dinner...they like to jam with me, lol).
The key is knowing what you're working on. Right now, I am working almost totally on tone and playing fast with better tone. I also have been working a lot on tongue blocking and playing fast passages tb'ed. I tend to not keep my jaw dropped when playing fast...I dont' keep the harp deep enough either.
Before that, I was on a big overbend kick...just coming up with riffs and playing them in tune.
@hvyj- Master status requires 8 hours a day-don't kid yourself or sell your self short. As far as Chromatic hardware for playing blues,your friend may not be too far off base-I am talking BLUES ,not rock or rocking blues . Look at Dennis Gruenling's harp boxes-Chromatic and diatonic-loaded with Chroms and diatonics of all keys- he will use a G Chromatic in third for an Am song. He uses a C chromatic in 12th for a song in the key of F. He uses a Bb Chromatic in third for a song in the key of C. An F chromatic in 10th position for a song in the key of Ab. A G Chromatic in 10th postion for a song in the key of Bb. That kind of knowledge is based on the degrees of the scale,and woodshedding 8 hours a day. And he is a true master of the Chrom and diatonic.
Master status requires 10,000 reps and/or hours. There is solid evidence.
HOWEVER
If you have a niche, it is a lot less. If you are smart about it, I think it can be less. If you have a background in something, it can be less.
20min a day every day for 10 years is 1,216 hours. Which doesn't seem like very much...but it is better than nothing.
I think you'd have to practice 3hrs a day for 10 years to be a master. You'd have to practice 8hrs a day for 3.5 years to get to 10,000hrs.
That is if you buy into the 10,000hr theory. I, though, would be interested in looking at it as a 10,000rep theory. I had a throwing coach in high school who was a genius coach that preached 10,000 reps. 10 reps of a lick a day for 100 days is 1,000 reps...adds up quickly. And 10 reps is a very small and easy number.
From what I've read of others, I think there is an initial period where playing hours a day is important. Then, there is a period where performance replaces most that practice and the artist either 1.)learns as they perform or 2.)learns in small chunks. In otherwords, there is so much schema already developed for the "new" piece of music, that it is learned much faster. The woodshedding is much more concise and intentional.
I would argue that most of the all-day-every-day learning is very inefficient and more about experimentation. Meaning, if someone follows more of a plan with an outcome in mind, it would go much faster.
For example, once a guitar player can move from chord to chord, changing the pattern of chords isn't really a bid deal anymore.
What I am getting at, in my rambling, is that 10,000 can come from a lot of stuff. Another example, if you are engaged in things musically inclined for three hours a day, that would probably count too.
I don't know how controversial a proposal is, but I would suggest that most of what an artist plays for soloing is really the same few things over and over transposed into different patterns and arrangements. This is a blessing and a curse. You develop a unique voice, but anyone really in the know can start to see those patterns and hear them in the same song all the time.
In order to break this, it is often easier to transpose those licks and ideas into different rhythms than new licks.
Case in point...my beloved Derek Trucks. I've heard him live three times in three different bands. The note choice and techniques solo to solo are very "limited" compared to how many of those things exist in the world (although they are varied compared to most players vocab). What makes each solo interesting is the sense of familiarity mixed with taking those ideas in different direction.
I hear the same sort of thing with "minimalists" like Chris Michalek to "notey" artists like John Popper or Jason Ricci. Most improvising has very similar themes and ideas jam to jam, but the rhythms and order are different.
So to summarize...learning to do a few things very very well is more important than learning everything. I vividly remember visiting with Chris Michalek on a MN trip in 2004 where I brought up a really great player and him immediately jumping on me.
Said player could play everything, was an amazing technician, had a ton of work, and was very very musical in his playing - playing very complicated jazz pieces, etc. Chris wasn't impressed. He asked if I could describe this person's voice on harmonica? Was there anything unique? He was down on the guy because he felt is was more important to have a voice than to sound generically good on many things. Made sense to me.
I am much more into players that I can pick out from a crowd than those that can play a much of crazy stuff. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
I think everthing musical counts towards total hours- listening,playing,recording,playback,memorization,notation-it would be all encompassing. This would also include improvising,as well as note for note playing. I don't beleive in listening to "slowed -down" music for learning-the music should be learned and played at it's original speed-you lose the sense of timing on the slowed-down version.
adam, minor correction Black Magic Woman is a Peter Green tune, and as such is actually as much a blues standard as a latin based standard.
I agree with the statements about weak points, one thing I would add is that the points sound weak because you are playing outside of your comfort zone and taking it somewhat careful.. I play stiff when I am just playing the notes I know will work, hanging too close to the root. But it also is exactly that situation where breakthroughs can happen and something new comes out.. or a trainwreck sometimes too
@tmf714: You're absolutely right that achieving master status requires considerably more than 20 minutes a day. But if a player has a basic fundamental foundation already developed, i think 20 minutes every day consistently can get a player to a very decent level of competence over the period of a year. But, now that i think about it, considerably more than 20 minutes a day would be necessary to develop that foundation.
I'm just learning chrom, but I see no reason to use anything but a C chrom to play blues in C. It's not a particularly difficult breath/button pattern to play (although not as easy as D or E).
I don't think in terms of "positions" when i play chrom. I think in terms of notes. You can learn the major scale in all 12 keys on chrom simply by by stacking 6 tetrachord patterns--not that I've gotten that far yet. So it seems to me that a player misses out on a lot of useful musical interrelationships by approaching the chrom by thinking in terms of "positions" as if it were a diatonic. And i do play diatonic in multiple positions.
My interest in learning chrom is not so much to be able to play blues, but to be better able to handle a wider variety of non blues material. Some tunes modulate between different keys or have parallel Dorian chords or chords that have notes outside of the diatonic scale of the key that the melody is in. Some of that material is not playable on a diatonic harp even w/ OBs (although I don't OB) or requires the use of multiple diatonic harps. For my purposes, changing chroms to change keys seems counterproductive--it's really nice using an instrument where all the notes are always in the same location.It's very flexible and it makes the interrelationships among scales, modes, notes and chords easier to comprehend and navigate on the instrument.
I mean, certain tunes in certain keys might be really hard to play on a C chrom and might be much more easily handled with a chrom in a different key. I'm not that far along yet. But I'm far enough along to know that C blues on a C chrom isn't in that category. Using a Bb chrom for blues in C simply allows the player to use the "third position" (key of D on a C chrom) breath and button pattern instead of learning the C blues scale breath and button pattern. If someone is a actually "master" of the chrom i don't know why they would need to do that. The D blues scale on a C chrom is a little easier to play than a C blues scale but C is not so much harder that i would be tempted to change instruments in order to play it.
The hard part is not actually learning the breath and button patterns for different keys--the hard part is keeping them straight in order to be able to use them on the fly. But if sax players do it without changing horns i think i should be able learn to do it without switching harps. At least that's my objective. But I've got a long way to go.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2011 1:27 PM
That was a great post, very insightful. I agree with most if not all of what you wrote.
Just a couple of comments to add on what you brought up:
1.Regarding having a practice plan in mind. I read an article from someone who studied the commonalities of success across a number of fields. FOCUSED practice was a big theme. The writer noted that the average golf duffer goes out and hits 200 practice nine-iron balls, whereas, Tiger Woods goes out and hits 200 balls with the goal of being within 10 feet of the pin on every shot, and then evaluates how he did and makes adjustments.
2. The 10,00 hour rule seems daunting, but that rule was formulated in the context of being "world class" in whatever your endeavor. Think ...The Beatles, Wayne Gretzky etc. You could be considered an excellent player by many people long before you got to 10,000 hours. Not that the goal of getting to that level shouldn't be pursued.
(note: it was at this point in a different thread that I offered the opinion that even after 10,000 hours, one might not have the "it" factor, talent or whatever you want to call it, to transcend everyone else in the field. This idea was met with vehement objection by a number of posters who hold that talent does not exist and that all succees/expertise can be reduced to merely practice time....as I recall the discussion got, for lack of a better term, "heated". I can see I'm rambling..no intent to hijack the thread so i'll bow out here)
@hvyj-"The D blues scale on a C chrom is a little easier to play than a C blues scale but C is not so much harder that i would be tempted to change instruments in order to play it." Really? Where do you get your Eb and Bb from?
@tmf714: To get Eb and Bb you just press the slide in. On a C chrom, Draw 1 slide in is D#/Eb and Draw 3 slide in is A#/Bb. Your other blue note (F#/Gb) is Draw 2 slide in.
Blues scale in C: C Eb F Gb G Bb This is played on a C chrom in the lower register as follows: B1 D2< D2(or B2<) D2< B3 D3< B4(orD4<). <=slide in. Since E#=F and B#=C there are alternative ways to play F (D2 or B2<) and C (B4 or D4< or B5). But no matter how you choose to play this scale, all are relatively easy patterns to play--no tough breath shifts or difficult breath/button relationships. There's no reason to change hardware in order to do it so long as you have a rudimentary knowledge of how the chrom is laid out.
All octaves on a 12 or 16 hole chrom are laid out the same EXCEPT in the highest register where the top hole draw slide in is D instead of B#/C, which is actually pretty handy since it gives you the 9th in C and allows you play a complete D scale in the top register. So, that note is much more useful than having another B#/C up there.
The biggest mental obstacle in learning to play chrom is that you have to think in terms of SHARPS instead of flats since pressing the slide in takes you UP a half step. So instead of thinking in terms of Eb Gb Bb for the blue notes in C, you have to think D# F# A# which seems a little counter intuitive at first, but you get used to it pretty quickly.
The key of A natural minor is the relative minor of C so A natural minor has the same notes as the do-re-mi scale in C, just starting on A. To play A natural minor on a C chrom there's no need to work the slide at all. So there's no good reason to switch to a G chrom in order to play in A natural minor. If it's A Dorian minor, just sharp the F to get the major 6th (Draw 3 or Draw 7 or Draw 11 slide in). I mean ONE sharp, so you press the slide once for A Dorian minor. NBD. To play A blues scale you just press the slide once to sharp the D (Draw 2 or Draw 6 or Draw 10) for 4#/5b--no other slide action needed. Again, NBD. So, I'm truly perplexed why a "master" would want to change harps to play in these keys since they are so easily playable on a C chrom. In fact, A minor, A Dorian minor and A blues scales are actually easier to play than the C blues scale since so much less slide action is required.
I haven't learned Bb yet, but G is the relative minor. i haven't learned Ab yet either, but i think that may be a tough key to get around in and might justify considering a change of harps, but i haven't figured that one out yet. I mean I've only been trying to learn chrom for about a month (20 minutes a day, with some gaps in the daily part) but some things are so easily playable on a C chrom, it's pretty clear that no extra hardware is necessary in order to play them easily, even for a rank beginner like me.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2011 5:36 PM
"if he is just starting to learn,there is no way he's hitting the button AND bending down - "
I hit the button INSTEAD of bending. That's the whole point of playing chrom. I may use a little quarter tone bend here and there, but just for flavor. BTW, I don't pretend to be any good at playing chrom, but I can certainly figure out how to play the easy scales without changing harps.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2011 5:27 PM
There is no way you can play a C chromatic for a key of C blues song and have it sound better than 3rd position with a Bb harp-it's not going to happen. To hit those bluesey notes,the flats bending,the sharps with the slide in,quickly and accuratley-AND have it sound as bluesey as 3rd on a Bb Chrom-just not going to happen. Here is a perfect example-
I'm a hot shot. Just ask my grandchildren. Anyway who really cares? I play mostly 1st pos, some 2nd, some 3rd, 4th 5th 6th & 12th. I play almost entirely by ear. Weaknesses -lots. Thats why I hang out here and elsewhere to listen, learn, copy & adapt. And, hopefully improve.
The hours played = master status , does it really matter ? for blues harp ,or playing Blues in a competent way is more down to understanding the music and being able to play it ,so that people enjoy listening . iT's about getting out there and playing in front of people , either with a band or solo /duo , like any musical genre , it's about being able to connect with other musicians while connecting with the audience . For me anyway i dont consider playing music a sport or a competitive thing .
"There is no way you can play a C chromatic for a key of C blues song and have it sound better than 3rd position with a Bb harp-it's not going to happen."
I don't know why not. All THREE of your blue notes in C can be played as draws on the C chrom and all 3 are played with SLIDE IN on a C chrom.
Only TWO can be played as draws on the Bb harp since the flat 5th/sharp 4th (F#) is BLOW 3 SLIDE IN. As for the other two: Eb on a Bb harp is DRAW 2 SLIDE OUT and Bb/A# on a Bb harp is either DRAW 4 SLIDE IN or BLOW 4 SLIDE OUT. So you have LESS working of the slide to get all 3 blue notes AND all 3 blue notes can be played as DRAW notes if you are playing C blues scale on a C chrom instead of on a Bb chrom.
So, IMHO, the blue note breath and button pattern for C blues scale on a Bb chrom is more complicated and not as conducive to expressive blues playing. Now, the SCALE itself may be a little less complicated on a Bb harp, although not by much. But the BLUE NOTES are more complicated to hit and can't all be played as draws on a Bb chrom and it is what you can do with the blue notes that has the most impact on how expressively you can play a blues.
Am i missing something here? I mean I just don't understand how changing slide positions twice and breath directions once in order to get blue notes is somehow BETTER than playing all 3 blue notes as draws with the slide in. If this is what you are trying to tell me, I don't get it and i certainly don't agree with it. But, I'm no expert on chrom, so please feel free to enlighten me.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2011 7:27 PM
I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. It could be validly argued that playing blues in G, A, or Bb on a C chrom will quickly put the player in the second octave of the instrument when maybe blues sound better in the middle C octave.
One solution would be to use a different key instrument. But another solution is simply to use a 14 hole chrom in C which allows you to start your scale on G, A, or Bb (or Ab) below middle C so the rest (or most of the rest) of the scale is played in the middle C register. A 14 hole also allows you to get Bb below root (middle C) when playing in C which can be VERY useful. And a 14 hole is quite a bit easier to handle than a 16 hole. FWIW.
I've got a Suzuki SCX-48 12 hole and a Suzuki SCX-54 14 hole, both in C. First and only chromatic harps I've ever actually enjoyed playing. Nice tone, very airtight, crisp response, smooth slide action and not at all sticky or temperamental. The 12 hole is available in the keys of C, G, A, D and F. The 14 hole is only made in C. They also make a 16 hole in C.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2011 8:44 PM
tmf714 said "There is no way you can play a C chromatic for a key of C blues song and have it sound better than 3rd position with a Bb harp-it's not going to happen."
Check out George "Harmonica" Smith playing 1st position chromatic like "Boogiein' With George" or "Chicago City". Mark Hummel took "Boogiein' With George" to another level in his "Humblebug" just as good as Piazza's "Low Down Dog"
