tmf714 said: "To hit those bluesey notes,the flats bending,the sharps with the slide in,quickly and accuratley"
I think you might be a little confused (or maybe I'm just misunderstanding you). From what you've been saying it sounds like you think that on a chromatic harmonica you get the "sharps" (like F#) by using the button, and you get the "flats" (like Eb, or Bb) by bending. When you play the chromatic you don't bend to hit certain notes, like you do on a diatonic (although I suppose it is technically possibly). It is possible to bend on the chromatic (although many people choose not to), but the bending is used simply for expression. Also the bends are single reed valved bends, unlike the dual reed bends on a diatonic.
You're right that you hit the "sharps" by using the button, but you also hit the "flats" by using the button (you don't bend to hit the "flats"). So for example if you want to play a Bb in the first octave, you simply play the 3-draw with the slide in. This gives you the Bb, or you can also think of it as an A#. Bb and A# are enharmonics, essentially meaning that they're the exact same note,just using a different name. So all the "flats" could also be considered "sharps", so Eb can also be considered D#.
Many of the well known blues chromatic players play blues in first position on the chromatic, and yes, it sounds just as blues as when they play third. George "Harmonica" Smith, for example, played first position blues on the chromatic. He also played blues in "alternate C" on the chromatic. This means that he used the slide in as his home position, with the root note on 4-draw with the slide in(you could also refer to this as B#). This is a great way to play blues in first position because all the blue notes are draw notes with the slide in. Since you're home position is "slide in", you don't need to worry about hitting the button every time you play a blue note. So your "alternate C" blues scale would be:
4D*, 5D*, 6B*, 6D*, 7B, 7D*, 8D*
The * means slide-in.
When playing this scale, it's also great to sometimes use the 6D instead of 6B* (these are enharmonics. Same exact note, two ways to play it).
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2011 11:13 PM
@REM: I just figured out that if I use a 14 hole, I can get that breath/button pattern in the first octave AND get Bb below middle C in to start the run, ALL as draw notes, except, of course, 7B. Thanks! "Alternate C" is, of course, B#. It's nice to be able to play a harp in different keys and have the locations of all the notes stay in the same locations which is a new experience for me.
Btw, do you have any examples of Chrom blues recordings in E on a C harp??
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2011 5:07 AM
@tmf 714 and hvyj What are you guys argueing about? tmf you play Eb just like you do D but hold the button in the whole time. Thats the easy way of doing it. You could use a B harp though. hvyj most people play blues in 3rd because you can play a whole song and not use the button at all. I don't think thats the smart way of learning, but that is THE reason. It doesn't make you wrong. I'm just pointing out that you guys a argueing over something that has no good answers! Listen to Norton Buffalo's "Mercury Blues" with Roy Rodgers. Thats in 2nd position (or G on a C chrom). It's not as important on a chrom what position your playing in as it is the player just knowing where all the notes are! 3rd position is the easiest to play blues because most of the chord tones are draw notes and diatonic blues players play in 2nd position where most of the chord tones are draw notes. Thats why most blues chromatic is in third! Not everything is complicated!
@chromaticblues: In third position on a chrom, don't you need to work the slide to get the 5b?
But, yeah, I've sort of been under the assumption that the ostensible "masters" who use third almost all the time and change harps do it play that way simply because they don't know or don't want to learn multiple scales on the chrom and so they just stick with breath patterns that are comparable to what they use for playing diatonic in order to pull it off and make it seem like they know what they are doing on chrom. But, clearly George Harmonica Smith and Norton Buffalo DO know their way around on a chrom.
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2011 5:02 AM
@hvyj You don't have to use the button to play the minor 5th in 3rd. You can bend the 3 and 7 draw down. Now on a C harp the 3 draw is "easy" (once you've played for awhile), but the 7 draw is more like what you guys were talking about being a master harp player. Someone that can bend the 7 draw down a semitone with good intonation has practiced that bend alot! Its doable, but I think I read your just getting into the chrom so try getting the 3 draw first. Go easy chromatics are expensive!
Ryan-I have seen you play,and you are also very talented on the Chrom-George cut 2 songs in 1st position chrom-"Boogie'n With George" and "Peg O' My Heart". And again,John as a beginner is saying he can play blues in C on chromatic and have it sound just as good or better than someone playing blues in C on a Bb chromatic-maybe years from now ,but at this time NO>. Also John,most blues Chrom players are using big octaves,not single notes. You have admitted your not a big blues harp player,so why get all wrapped up in it? @REM-Yes ,I know my way around the Chrom fairly well-enough to play it live and have it sound good. The sharps I am referring to are Johns way of looking at those particular notes. Of course,in the blues scale,thay are referred to as flat notes.
@tmf714: "Also John,most blues Chrom players are using big octaves,not single notes. You have admitted your not a big blues harp player,so why get all wrapped up in it? "
Well, i have paying gigs playing blues most weeks, so I would not agree that I'm not big on playing blues harp. But I can also play other styles of music, and sometimes pick up gigs that are not strictly blues gigs. But blues is what I play most frequently.
Now, playing D blues on a C chrom is not very difficult. I've been able to do THAT on chrom for 20 years or so. But now that I'm making a serious effort to learn chrom, i find that I can play blues better and more easily playing in C on a C chrom. Which, quite frankly is not saying much, since I'm not very good on chrom anyway and certainly not ready to use chrom on a paying gig (yet).
But playing OCTAVES on a chrom is easy in any key. ANY 5 hole spread gives you an octave. Blocking ANY 3 notes and playing a split gives you an octave, so you can easily play octaves in ANY key on a chrom..
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but, with all due respect, a lot of the things you are telling me about chrom are not making much sense.
@chromaticblues: Yeah, I can't get reliable half step bends on chrom. So I'm dependent on working the slide right now.
When it comes to a bend on a chromatic, only a Hering can come close to a true 1/2 step bend, but you have to ease your way into and they can get blown out easy when played too hard, and with most chromatics, the most you can really bend is 1/4 step.
I first discovered George Smith doing 1st position chromatic back when the Boogie N With George LP was issued in 1983, but discovered looking thru his recordings that he also used it in the 70's on his old Deram LP Arkansas Trap on Roaming and Monkey On A Limb. Whenever I start playing chromatic in 1st position, it often confounds a lot players out this way in NE, and before I started playuing 1st position chromatic, the only other NE harp player I knew doing this was the late Lonesome Dave Clark, who spent time with both Luther Gtr Jr Johnson as well as Luther Georgia Boy Johnson. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
When it comes to a bend on a chromatic, only a Hering can come close to a true 1/2 step bend, but you have to ease your way into and they can get blown out easy when played too hard, and with most chromatics, the most you can really bend is 1/4 step.
I first discovered George Smith doing 1st position chromatic back when the Boogie N With George LP was issued in 1983, but discovered looking thru his recordings that he also used it in the 70's on his old Deram LP Arkansas Trap on Roaming and Monkey On A Limb. Whenever I start playing chromatic in 1st position, it often confounds a lot players out this way in NE, and before I started playuing 1st position chromatic, the only other NE harp player I knew doing this was the late Lonesome Dave Clark, who spent time with both Luther Gtr Jr Johnson as well as Luther Georgia Boy Johnson. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I had trouble posting yesterday and wound up with an inadvertent triple post (quckly deleted the other two). today I'm having trouble with MBH pages loading and was going to start a thread asking if anyone else was having trouble.
I'm havng no problems with other sites that I go to, so I don't think it's a my computer problem.
I had trouble posting yesterday and wound up with an inadvertent triple post (quckly deleted the other two). today I'm having trouble with MBH pages loading and was going to start a thread asking if anyone else was having trouble.
I'm havng no problems with other sites that I go to, so I don't think it's a my computer problem.
I had trouble posting yesterday and wound up with an inadvertent triple post (quckly deleted the other two). today I'm having trouble with MBH pages loading and was going to start a thread asking if anyone else was having trouble.
I'm havng no problems with other sites that I go to, so I don't think it's a my computer problem.
@BQBob Bob if I can't play a half step bend on any chromatic on the 3 hole draw then something is wrong with the harp! I do agree that people shouldn't try to do this alot because your harps won't last, but the only way you'll get good at it is by busting up harps trying to get it! Its kind of a catch 22! The only way you truly know how far you can push a harp is by braking some in the learning process. Then just throttling back a little from there. Oh and NO I don't play hering chromatics. I'm not trying to be arguementive with you. I just honestly don't think I have ever owned a chromatic that wouldn't bend the three draw down a half step.
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2011 7:10 AM
Bob is correct as far as the Hering being airtight-it is one of the most airtight chromatic harps built. I own a Super 270 Deluxe,which is fairly tight for a Hohner,and it takes a deliberate and solid technique to hit the 3 draw bend precisely and cleanly.
@MVLU --- The browser that I have, IE8, too often doesn't go quick enough and gets stuck too much and sometimes when I click to post, it doesn't do a damned thing, and whenever I'm on a public library computer with this browser, it's worse so that's why you see that.
@chromaticblues --- Most stock Hohners won't do it and partly because their slot tolerances aren't even remotely tight enough as a Hering is to do it and that's been a trademark of Hering harps for a long time and why OOTB, they play easier than Hohners have traditionally, especially with chromatics and can bend to a 1/2 step. I haven't ordered any custom chromatics yet but plan on doing so at some point and I got a chance to play a customized 270 and it so SOOOO different in playability alone, let alone bending capabilities, but breath force becomes a more important issue with these, just like with diatonics.
Most people blow out Herings harps, both chromatics and diatonics real quick because of their tighter slot tolerances and often play them WAY TOO GODDAMNED HARD and so they blow quick qhen you do that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
a lot of good points on the post and a lot of nonsense. It is entirely possible to play a nice sounding minor solo in 2nd and 3rd position. 3rd position actually is a very good answer to achieving this sound. Most people who play in 3rd position just know it as 3rd position and don't understand the basic music theory behind it. So naturally they are going to default to to the the blues cliches they are comfortable with. I have to agree though that If someone wants to be committed to playing in a minor key without that bluesy sound they should def try different positions. Thats the only way to escape the chains of that tired old sound.
