Lately I've been faced with a conundrum when it comes to amps. I've had my eye on a '73 Bassman Ltd. But it seems to me, after seeing some of them in action with a harp in the local scene where I also play, that 410 with 50 watts is overkill in a lot of instances. I'm not out to blow anyone else off the stage.
Am I off in la-la-land here, or does anyone else feel like there is such thing as overkill on amps?
I've had guitarist with 15 watt amps blow me off the stage. You don't need all that horsepower all the time,but it's nice to have it when you need it. You can always turn down,but if you don't have the power,you can't turn up. Some amps need to be cranked to get in the "sweet spot". I'm not very familiar with the Bassman RI. Perhaps someone with more experience can chime in.
You are in "la la land"...unless you have your own PA/stage monitor to get your low powered amp loud enough for you/FOH to hear (in which case use what you have). Consider also that just because you have power on tap, you don't have to utilise all its potential, if you want to be quiet then you can play quiet & concentrate on getting a warm sound rather than just a loud sound. It is also easy enough to reduce power by switching/pulling out a power tube/using higher mu preamp tubes/softer rectifier/overdive, or LW harp octave pedal.
Environment is key, if you are playing with guitarists with 40-50W amps, bassist with 350W plus, a drummer with sticks, then a 50W 4x10" is pretty well minimum requirement. If the rest of the band play 5W amps & drummer uses brushes, then you have more options.
Nothin' But The Blues in London has the strictest noise level requirements of just about anywhere I know of...40W 3x10" is the smallest amp that anyone I know uses up there.
If you simply don't want to lug a heavy amp around, then a small amp with a line out, is an option...again, you will need some way to monitor it on stage & get the sound out FOH. But most guys prefer the sound coming from the back line and the ability to make adjustments without trekking back & forth to the PA/signalling another band mate to do it.
I usually do mic the amp I use currently. It's a solid state and doesn't carry on loud songs. I keep thinking if I split the difference on a tube amp, say a Blues Jr. or a Peavey Delta Blues, and still mic it, I'll have the best of both worlds. The tone and volume proximity that I want, and less risk of blowing folks offstage. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
I'd wire up a speaker driven "line out" rather than mic it, for best volume. But then I'd avoid the Blues Jr & the Peavey as well.
What is the "other world" that the SS amp gives you? If that's working for you why not double up with another amp of the same type?
Tube do not guarantee "tone", it's no coincidence that off all the tube amp configurations that are available most harp players use amps based on just a handful of designs (& even that is based on a "hand" with a couple of fingers missing!). So basically, if the rig you use at the moment isn't cutting it, try the cheap, obvious route of doubling up...then skip to a "good known quantity" like the bassman. It's an amp that you can tweak over time (if necessary) as cash allows, as long as you want to play on stage, it will be useful to you.
@HawkeyeKane I recently got a 1993 Bassman RI. When retubed for harp the power is not 50watts. I owe a ton of thanks to 5F6H for his expertise on Bassman's. I'm still in the process of getting the tube arrangment to my likings, so many tubes , so many arrangments! Any way I also have a HG2 5watt. Great little amp but to use it on sage with my rock/blues band it has to run thru the PA. If I place it real close to me I can use it as a monitor but some times I didn't have that option. The Bassman has enough power to hear it but I also mic it to the mains with good results. The weight really isn't as much as you think. The shipping weight was 35lbs. I have started to use an isolation wall,"1/4' Lexan sheet in front of the amp with the mic aganst the speaker grill cloth with good results when in the small practice shack we use. The shield cuts down on feed back and I can crank the volume to distortion with out overpowering every one.\My 2 cents.
I've tried doubling up with a pair of solid state amps. The two I have are a Marshall MG10CD 1x6 5 watt, and a Peavey Vypyr 15 1x8 15 watt. Unfortunately, the Marshall is the only one out of the two with an emulated line out, and it doesn't work with everything you plug it into. It works with the Peavey, but the drawback of using these together is that the Marshall has almost no low end to it whatsoever, so my sound is so treble driven that way.
I like the tone I can get out of the Peavey. It's a modeling amp so I can adjust it all sorts of ways. Another idea I've been trying on is a Kalamazoo Model 2 with a spreaker driven line out to run that through either a PA or the Peavey. Love those suckers. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Whether 50 watts 4x10 is enough or if it's overkill depends a lot on what your guitar player is playing through, and what other amplification is on stage.
It's horses for courses. There is IMHO no cut and tried specification. Amps are tools. Ideally you have more than one tool and you pick what is best for the particular job at hand. And like any tool you can pick a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. But what the hell is the point? So no, you are most certainly not in "la la land", it is possible to have amp overkill.
I think too often there is some sort of equation going on with power. If matey over here has a 35 watt amp I'm going to get 50. If he has 50 I'm going to get 65. And by God I paid for those watts and I'm going to use them.
i have a replica '59 bassman 4x10. rated at about 40 watts with the tubes i have in it. weighs about 45 lbs. sounds like 2 million $$ even with a loudass band. but the volume knob goes all the way to 1. meaning i can turn down considerable and keep the great tone the amp is capable of producing. it's like a firearm. i'd rather have one and not need it..... ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
@Jlnx "my estimate, prolly near 97% of all harp players are way too loud." Hmmm, interesting, how was this rather precise sounding "estimate" arrived at?
The reason for amplifying the harp is for the sound/tone it makes, if you just want to be loud, you want to blow straight into a several KWatt PA system & forego an amp altogether. It's not always the case that the "loudest" players are those with the best technique, sometimes aiming for a thicker, warmer sound drops you back in the volume stakes. Lowest common denominators are usually bass & drums...you can play quiet IF they do too & you can play quiet with a 4x10 2x6L6 amp. A guitarist through an efficient 15-25W guitar amp can decimate most harp players using a 50W amp if they so desire.
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2011 10:06 AM
5F6H, your last sentence is right on! I always plan 2-3 times more wattage than the guitar player. That being said, I run my band and own the PA, so I get away with murder every night.
My needs are also different. I really just need a clean signal with some warmth...basically, I've been going straight to the board or miking a small-clean amp and use a monitor. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
"A guitarist through an efficient 15-25W guitar amp can decimate most harp players using a 50W amp if they so desire." A couple of weeks ago, our band played a pool party.I arrived late from a previous commitment and was already set up beside the guitarist. Plug & play. I had a Bassman 50 head/cab. Being outside, I was able to turn both my mic and amp volume to 10 and I still could not hear myself. 50 watts-overkill? I'll make sure I'm on the opposite side of the stage from him from now on.
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2011 12:40 PM
one of the amps i have is a Music Man 210,30w/60w,and it has a master volume control...you can set it on 30w. and put master vol. on 4 with regular vol. on 9 and it sounds like a champ on 10.if you need alot of loud, 60 w. on full tilt is like a bassman on ginseng. leo fender made these too,so you know they`re made to play...
On hearing yourself, does anyone use an earplug? I do this occasionally. Singers do it all the time. I just base which ear is plugged by what I need to hear most and where my amp is placed. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
i have a vypyr 15, too. fun little amp, but i was never able to use for more than messing around at home. it just doesn't get very loud, and i always play it with the volume at 10.
but if you like its sound, and have settings you like, you might consider the vypyr 30 ($199) or 75 ($299).
alternately, if you like the modeling amp approach, you could look at other modeling amps like vox vt series, roland cubes, or fender mustang.
I give Fender and Vox their due, but I really am a Peavey man when it come to solid state equipment. I've looked at the higher wattage Vypyrs, hell I've even considered the tube model Vypyrs. They have a lot more settings on them too.
Bottom line, I dunno.
I like the reliability and versatility of solid state, but at the same time, I love the sound of tube amps and crave a vintage model. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
@HawkeyeKane "I like the reliability and versatility of solid state, but at the same time, I love the sound of tube amps and crave a vintage model."
Sorry, that statement has just gone over my head. Solid state vs tube has little bearing on versatility or reliability. In fact, I think it is far more common to see guys using mid 60's tube amps on stage than mid 60's SS amps. The typical tube amp can often be tailored for gain & tone by anyone, without any technical knowledge, simply by plugging in/out preamp tubes ...you can't do that with an SS amp. "Tube amps" don't have a common sound, they all sound different, some are great, some are dreadful...just lke SS amps. The principle difference between your typical SS & tube amp is that the SS amp is lighter and most importantly cheaper.
Modelling is available on tube & SS amps, so this is not relevant to any tube vs SS debate.
The reliability factor in my mind comes from the lack of fragile tube components in SS models. Less parts that are easily breakable equals reliability in my mind. I know, most tube amps have the protective casings around the tubes to shield them. But that doesn't help in the case of power surge, and even when they ARE shielded, if the amp gets jostled hard enough, the tubes can still get damaged. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
I gig regularly with a solid state amp that has a tube preamp (SWR Baby Baby Blue) and two tube amps (Fender Super Reverb Reissue and Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue). Which amp i use depends on the nature of the particulate gig. Each of these amps see hard usage (the PRRI somewhat less so than the other two) and they all spend quite a bit of time in the trunk of my car. The tube amps have been no less durable than the solid state amp and are certainly no less versatile. All are equally reliable.
The only thing about the SRRI is that it has wheels on it and occasionally a tube may work a little loose if it is rolled over a rough parking lot surface, but that is something that is very easily corrected by simply pushing the tube back into place and it doesn't happen very often anyway.
I don't currently own any Peavey gear, but i used to, and I must agree that the Peavey solid state amps and effects I've owned had impressively good tone, and surprisingly nice warmth of tone. There are some very nice sounding solid state amps out there these days. But modern tube amps are no less reliable in my experience, and as a practical matter, the tube amps i have are more versatile than any solid state amp I've personally owned.
As far as power surges are concerned i always use a Furman Surge Block (which is an inexpensive and very useful piece of gear) and have never had a problem..
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2011 10:21 AM
There are only 2 drawbacks of the bigger amp as far as I'm concerned. The first is simply the hassle of transporting it. The second is that SOME big amps don't "turn down" well. Both my Sonny Jr amps certainly do - they have great tone at low volumes.
As to "The reliability factor in my mind comes from the lack of fragile tube components in SS models. Less parts that are easily breakable equals reliability in my mind. " That makes INTUITIVE sense but I have found the exact opposite to be true. Heavy amps are highly likely to experience high-G shocks. Falling over, being put down on a corner, riding around in the back of a truck. Printed Circuit Boards are vulnerable to cracking. On most amps with a solid state preamp have the input jack mounted to the front panel and directly soldered to the PCB. One good knock on the cable plug and the load can transfer to the circuit board and crack it (panels DO flex.) I've seen it happen. On the other hand, a point-to-point wired board has all the flex it needs to absorb shock without breaking any connections. And tubes are very rugged animals. In my limited experience, old p2p-wired amps are MORE reliable than the new solid state ones.
"On most amps with a solid state preamp have the input jack mounted to the front panel and directly soldered to the PCB. One good knock on the cable plug and the load can transfer to the circuit board and crack it (panels DO flex.)"
I do have to agree with you on that one. The only time my Vypyr has conked out was due to a front face jack coming loose. But when it comes to repair here in my town, it's easier and cheaper to get SS stuff fixed than it is to find new tubes quickly and inexpensively. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
"The second is that SOME big amps don't "turn down" well."
Well, you know, in general, many tube amps big or small don't turn down well. Tube amps often have a "sweet spot" that requires a somewhat higher volume setting to get good depth of tone.
This is not a problem, though, because if you have one of Greg's Ultimate series mics, you set the amp volume at its sweet spot and control performance volume level with the VC on the mic and you get great tone at low volume. At least that's what I do.
Yeah, most of my mics have a volume control on them. Cherry Bomb, JT30 and Retrorocket all do. But my Transcontinental and my Akai that I love so much don't, and the Akai is pretty gainy. I have yet to try it on a tube amp, so I'm just hoping all hell doesn't break loose when I do. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
I was thinking along those lines MP. It screams on my solid states. Getting the feel on a tube amp even as small as a Kala Mod2 will be delicate business. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
@HawkeyeKane: If your particular mic does not have a VC Greg sells in-line VCs which are compact and work extremely well.
@MP: You sound great and your rig does too. BUT how would your rig function if you were playing with a bass guitar, a hard rocking drummer and a more aggressive guitar player? Not being critical, just asking. You band sounds fine, but they are not a full out electric hard rocking ensemble. Would your mic'd Kalamazoo function effectively in that sort of stage environment and would you be able to hear yourself? Just curious.
i did a show w/ gregg allman (talk about LOUD) useing a fender vibro-champ. 5 watts, 1x8. ditto with the moody blues. arena stuff. application of sound reenforcement is the key to small amps and large amps.
i can't tell you how many times i've heard players say that they mic their supers and bassmans anyway. oh well... i just dig playing the harp. ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
I could get an inline for the Transcontinental, but not the Akai. It's connection is like a stock 520DX, straight in with the wire. And the butt end is too narrow to mount an XLR fitting I'm pretty sure. I dunno that I really want a volume control on it just yet. Have some other ideas for it too. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
You know, FWIW, i usually don't change mics. i just stick with my 545 Ultimate. i have one pedalboard for the SWR and a different one for the tube amps, though.
i crank both tube amps to get depth of tone out of them and set performance volume level with the VC on the mic which enables me to get good tone at low volume pretty reliably. I've become a big proponent of volume controls on the mic. I bet Greg probably has a VC that would fit your Akai. FWIW.
I started to prefer using PA over amp, as amp is always more prone to feedback to PA. I also love to split signal by DI box to have amp onstage (not too loud) and to send signal to PA. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
I have had all my mic's built with no voulme control-having it wired in ALWAYS takes a little bit away from the output-at least it does with CR,CM and Crystal elements. I want max output from my mic-I can tailor the sound from the amp in various ways,while avoiding feedback without having to resort to a volume knob on the mic. Cupping technique,where the amp is on stage in relevance as to where you stand,tube compliment,treble,midrange and presence settings all have a lot to do with controlling feedback,which is the reason for having a volume control on the mic. Piazza,Hummel,Wilson,Gruenling and Portnoy do not use voulme controls on their mic's-it's just another thing they have to be mindful of during the performance-on top of leading the band,singing and so on--
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2011 10:02 AM
"my estimate, probably near 97% of all harp players are way too loud."
Very true! I play guitar and harp, in a band. I'm a pretty good sound engineer(been at it over 40 yrs). I've played many times with harp players I've told to turn down, only to get the complaint that they can't hear themselves, then I pull my harp out for a duo and I can do it at half the volume and be heard fine. Loud is not better. If the band is good, there is dynamics. Good musicians know that the lead instrument must be heard and adjust the volume. The drums set the volume in a band. I've told every drummer this. He plays quiet, everyone else plays quiet and vice versa.
@tmf714: I've heard other players say that a VC degrades the tone of a bullet. I'm not a bullet mic user, but there's certainly no degradation in tone on Greg's Ultimate mics because of the VC.
I used to not like mic mounted VCs. like you said, just one more thing to keep track of. But over the last few years I've had a complete evolution in my thinking about mic mounted VCs and now i always use one. It allows me to set the amp for its best tone and forget it.
