It's bad in Nottingham tonight - looters and thugs have firebombed a police station just two streets away from where I work. Sorry to hear Bristol's suffering too Nick.It's Madness.
It is the human psyche finally breaking collectively from living the contradictions between unconscious life drives and the modern conscious world. Hope people won't get hurt too hurt.
I live in Enfield which was the target on Sunday. I predicted this would happen. The kids are fed a diet of Hello and OK magazine, Z-list celebs make a fortune for what? Footballers on £100,000 plus per week, bankers and politicians screw-up bigtime and get bonuses. It's hardly surprising. I could go on and on and on. I usually do. She bought me a tin of Grumpy Old Git mints for Christmas. ----------
@tookatooka: 'Grumpy old git mints' ; hmm, I'll have to try them, I'm getting a bit fed up with bowls of 'cranky old fart' for breakfast. ---------- Lucky Lester
@Andy & Wheezer - While I think that your comments maybe be true on some superficial level, I feel that is a bit of a generalisation.
I live in Hackey, London, which saw some of the worst of the rioting on Monday night. Some of it just yards from the end of my road.
These are mostly kids (and I mean kids – some as young as 7) who are from the poorest areas of our cities, who feel they already have little prospects for their future. Who see the people within their communities who are making money, making it through crime and violence. Who have just seen all the funding for their community projects – youth centres, music projects etc. removed by the state. Who have just seen college fees tripled, and who are seeing the bankers who were bailed out using tax payers money still taking their huge bonuses. They are people who have been ignored by the government time again when they have peacefully protested.
Don't get me wrong, these are not protests, they are, I feel, the manifestation of all of these issues boiling over. They're young, and angry and feel they don't have anything to loose.
I do not in anyway, condone their actions over the last few days, and feel, obviously, that destroying your own communities and local business is a pretty stupid way of making yourself heard, especially considering the nature of the issues.
However, righting them off as "a horde of uncivilised morons seizing the opportunity to steal, vandalise and set alight to stuff" I feel is little unfair, and a more understanding view of their situation needs to be taken by the press and the government. IMHO.
EDIT: Just seen this link:
This man says it better than I can. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmo8DG1gno4
Baker, I live at Loughborough Junction (between Brixton and Camberwell). There's a lot of denial in the air at the moment. If the whole of Britain went into the streets, the Tories would say "it's not the whole of society, it's just 60 million well-orchestrated individuals"
I suspect there will be riots every summer from now on.
To quote a shopkeeper in Ealing about three nights ago. "These kids have got nothing to look forward to, they've been brought up to believe they have no future, no chance of a job. What's can you do about that? A curfew I suppose." She wasn't being ironic, just dim. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 6:56 AM
These are mostly kids (and I mean kids – some as young as 7) who are from the poorest areas of our cities, who feel they already have little prospects for their future
I'm sorry but 7 year old's are not politically aware!
I was going to refrain from commenting on this forum, being unsure as to whether it was appropriate or, indeed, welcome.
However, given the extent to which I disagree with your assessment, I feel compelled to offer an alternative view, which may offer, at least in part, additional food for thought as to why this came about.
I'm not suggesting that everything you said should be dismissed, but I do feel that at least some of your points have been overstated by the mainstream media, e.g. the increase in student fees to help pay for bankers' bonuses - while grotesque - is something that many of these people are far too young to fully appreciate the ramifications of. In any case, a great many of them are not remotely interested in education.
At the moment, I don't have the time to challenge your views as fully as I would like, so I'll just post what I wrote earlier, but was unable to upload due to the spam prevention feature not working properly.
In any case, I don't want to quarrel with you or anyone else. I've taken your view on board, and I'm just asking that you do likewise with mine.
I think that there are at least two groups of people that share a great deal of culpability for this, and they've not yet received a well deserved mention in any report that I've seen or read.
One is all the do-gooder bleeding heart brigade bleating on about how these kids are bored and have nothing to do. What a crock. I've lost count of the number of times over the years I've heard that being used as an excuse by young people involved in criminality. I very much doubt they could have dreamt up such a catch-all excuse all by themselves. Rather, they have simply been taught to obviate the need for any kind of self-examination, and, in the process, have been done an immeasurable disservice.
When I was a child, I did the same things that other children do: I played, I made things with my hands. Sure, I wasn't exactly an angel - what child is? - but the levels of criminality that we now have amongst young people was something that could not have been envisaged, even in one's most wild imaginings.
The other group of nut-jobs behind this - who appear to hail from the same arrogant, superior class of people - are those who have incrementally eroded the UK's judiciary in favour of the criminal to a point whereby many, if not most, ordinary people now think it is a joke.
A few years ago I read a report in the London-based Times newspaper about the crime statistics over the last half-century. If memory serves, in 1952 in England and Wales there were half a million reported crimes. By 2004 that figure had risen to 13.8 million. That is not double or triple; it is an increase of almost twenty-eight-fold or 2800%. The 'reports' that one hears about falling crime are lies that are based on the manipulation of very flimsy blips in statistics here and there.
Tooka, I was very sad to see what they did to your town. Parts of my town - Croydon - were broke too. Those buildings that were destroyed have been a part of the landscape for generations. My grandmother was actually a friend of the family whose furniture store was destroyed. It is far more than bricks and mortar that is being desecrated.
@ HarmonicaMick – I actually agree whole heatedly with both the points you have made. I feel these are also part of the problem and reason for what has been going on.
This is a complex situation. My original comments were meant to give some context to the situation. I agree this may not the best place for this discussion.
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 7:40 AM
Different perspectives, same outcome. Who's to blame? From my seat there is no reationalization for this behavior. But what do I know, I'm just an ex-hoosier transposed to a florida cracker or at least try to be. It is very discusting to witness.
This is how I express my feelings over things like this. I created this piece of "music" with just the knowledge I've been able to glean from playing harp.
It's not perfect, I'm only an amateur musician. Not a single black key was used in this, I haven't learnt how to use them properly yet.
I'm so thankful that I picked the harp up. It's a great gateway instrument into the world of music.
Watching and hearing about this hacks me of no end. I live in scotland so things aren't kicking off here, yet and hopefully don't but it's not a long shot that it could all spread even more and as Andrew say's become a yearly event.
I heard some teenage girls being interviewed on t.v and without quoting directly they were saying it was goog fun and good to show the police they can do what they like.
Good fun used to be a lot more harmless.
I'm a father of three and work as a primary PE teacher and it scares me that children seem to have so little to look forward to and so little respect for themselves, others and the society they live in.
Greg (Feeling sad about the state of the nation). ---------- Living the dream and learning the blues one little trouble at a time.
Thanks for sharing that.(good work on the editing an electronica) It gave me more perspective on what's happening there, more than the news I've been seeing here. Very sad. ----------
I can't believe the things I'm seein', I wonder about some things I've heard, Everybodys cryin' mercy when they don't know the meaning of the word.
A bad enough situation is sure enough getting worse. Everybodys cryin' justice just as long as there's business first.
Toe to toe, touch and go, give a cheer, get your souvenir.
People running round in circles, don't know what they're headed for. Everybody cryin' peace on earth (just as soon as we win this war).
So straight ahead, knock em dead, pack your kit, choose your hypocrite. You don't have to go to off broadway to see something plain absurd: everybody cryin' mercy when they don't know the meaning of the word.
- Mose Allison
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 2:17 PM
I spent my first 28 years in London before moving to the south coast. One of the reasons I'm glad I left and will never go back is the arseholes who live there. Look what they've done to the place.
(Not saying everyone there is an arsehole of course but London has more than its fair share)
Chaos and riots can break-out anywhere at anytime... civilized society hangs pretty much on a thread, and law enforcement can only do so much, and only have so many toe-tags and body bags available.
I'm a big supporter of gun-rights and being able to protect yourself and your loved ones. The UK took that right away from its subjects some time ago.
I believe in being prepared... always have a supply of water, food, tools, guns, and ammo... and live away from big cities if at all possible, or have an exit plan and place to go where you do have the supplies to survive.
On the positive side, massive respect to all the 'Riot Wombles' who took it upon themselves to spontaneously organise cleaning parties to clear up the mess from the riots in their communities (those on Twitter check #riotwombles or #riotcleanup).
People like these remind why I bother to try and live my life being polite and friendly, despite the fact that, quite often, it results on you being shat upon by those who don't give a fuck.
It;s this kind of community spirit that the UK is so desperatly lacking, if you have no sense of belonging in your family or commmunity, you will find it elsewhere, even if 'elsewhere' is joining gang, or looting a department store.
When I was about 16 there was a riot in our small town here in northern Finland. It was the last friday night before the schools started after summer holiday. The riot was started by some young kids breaking in to the local superstore in the central. It rapidly expanded so that there were tens and in the end more than hundred of drunken young kids going to the stores, breaking other windows and getting stuff from the stores. For some reason I wasn't downtown that very night - I assume I could have easily went with the crowd.
It is a phenomenon that sometimes happens in complex systems (like crowds of young drunken people). Little event suddenly explodes through the population creating patterns in the global level. Nobody designed it, there weren't any blueprint, the whole pattern just emerged from the local interaction.
Since then the cities in Finland have always paid more attention on the last weekend after summer holidays, organizing activities for the kids and having more police force in alarm.
"There is no justification whatever for this type of conduct."
Agreed, djm- I have a hard time with ANY excuses being made in defence or justification of these actions. There is no personal responsiblilty any more. These people are demeaning themselves. ---------- Bluesharp- If you don't blow you suck...
I once read on a forum "to understand is to condone", ROFL!
Seriously, I am an MI5 agent, and I am interested in what people have to say. The politician with whom I liaise requires himself to be found blameless, and I think the strategy we'll adopt is, whenever there's a riot, we'll send out my secretary and her 7-year-old son (suitably guarded, of course), so that all rioting will be rendered messageless, (to the voters - controlling their thoughts is the only thing that matters).
A kid is present - "they are not adults!" A pacifist is present - "they are not violent, err, err, err, err. Oh no, I thought I understood logic, now I realise I'm just an idiot! Quick, pass me a tabloid so I can read it and pretend I'm thinking!" ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Anyone who thinks that politicians are not trying to spin this to their advantage is incredibly naive. Right down to the last detail - like making sure a black police officer is stood outside no. 10 when the PM makes a speech - this is being spun.
So make a big deal out the fact that one individual has a cosy, responsible job - then you start to change the public perception. If this guy has a cushy job, then these riots aren't about social stratification - surely? Oh and there's a graphic designer and some students too - it must be true. I read it in the Daily Mail - it's an outrage.
Over 1000 people have been arrested so far, I am certain that these careful handpicked first cases will not be your average looter, but the mileage the politicians will make from their backgrounds will be huge. If this isn't about disaffected kids then it doesn't matter that they've sold off all the playing fields, closed all the youth clubs, stopped funding for Voluntary sector community building projects, slashed social services budgets, closed Connexions services, cut probation services. Teaching assistants and graphic designers don't need those.
I'm not condoning. I think they should be punished. But there'll be no improvement unless we try to understand what drives kids to behave with such disregard for their own communities. Responsibility and altruism are learned, not innate. Rather than standing on soap boxes screaming "these feral kids have no sense of personal responsibility" shouldn't we be asking why not? and how can we make sure that subsequent generations do?
Nah, people are worth less than bullets nowadays. We prefer to use neuralizers. You civilians refer to them as "the media". And you pay money for them, so everyone wins, except you!
(as you can probably tell, I'm a bit bored with FB at the moment!) ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
When you create a society dependent on the government for basic needs, this is what you get in the long run. We've been heading down this road in the U.S. for quite a few years now and very few people ehre seem to really notice or care.
This is slightly of topic but very well said in my book....
@icemal No bullet-proof vests... too damned expensive, and the "used" ones have Kevlar that is old and degrades over time. Not very convenient either when all hell breaks loose. If you get hit in the head, arm, or leg, you're dead or will bleed to death without proper care.
If you can afford them, get 'em... but I'ld rather have more duplicate guns (both firearms and airguns) for parts, and as much ammo as you can afford and store.
Things can change quickly if you have to evacuate your home and head to who-knows-where. When that happens, I want to make sure I have a some means of protection, food, and water to survive for at least a few days... and some harps and my iPod !
Last Edited by on Aug 11, 2011 2:57 PM
@ tookatooka,. The thing you forgot to mention was that after the Insurance company's pay off,.. The businesses DO NOT rebuild after they are burnt out/ransacked whatever. See My above video (Detroit- City in Ruins) of what Detroit looks like today after the 1967 Riots,..Damn neer every Business,. once paid off,. Moved outta the City !! ----------
@LittelVillage- I really don't think a harmonica forum is the appropriate place to discuss cultural issues but when I saw your comment I was stunned. Wherever did you get the idea that the UK was a society dependent on government for it's basic needs? Have you ever actually lived in the UK or even visited the place? I lived there for well over 20 years, and yes I was on the dole on and off for awhile. I'm here to tell you that your statement is factually inaccurate.
Further I can tell you, that unless you have yourself lived in poverty due to circumstance well beyond your control and been in anyway forced to be in benefit of government aid for survival, which it does not provide, you have no idea what you're commenting on.
I won't go into it here or comment with further posts. Suffice to say I can cite facts, not ideology or opinion, which would disprove many, if not all, of the myths that are perpetrated by those who do believe that ideology trumps fact. ---------- LSC
"The thing you forgot to mention was that after the Insurance company's pay off,.. The businesses DO NOT rebuild after they are burnt out/ransacked whatever. See My above video (Detroit- City in Ruins) of what Detroit looks like today after the 1967 Riots,..Damn neer every Business,. once paid off,. Moved outta the City !!" Rharley
I know a city on the edge isn't likely to have money in the budget for incentives, but maybe a city could, as part of there overall plan, help subsidize insurance on policies on the condition that the business has to rebuild in the city to see a payout. You might even be able to make it revenue neutral with a little tweeking. ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
Talking to a drummer friend today, Mike from Chicago USA, long time resident here, and I asked him for some feedback on different issues.
Apparently in USA:
The National Guard is mobilised in situations as we have had here over the last 3 days
Looters are shot on sight!!
There still are looters even given the above!
Police are more adaptable, say you are pulled over and the cop checks your tyres, and one is bald; then he would give you a chance to change it without making an issue.
Last Edited by on Aug 12, 2011 2:59 PM
Looters aren't shot on sight in practice, at least not by law enforcement. I've seen pictures from the LA riots though where store owners were up on the roof with guns. The National Guard frequently gets called out for emergency situations, but rarely in situations where they would be on the other side from the public (more often is disaster relief), although it does happen. There are famous incidents where they have been used, school integration and what not, but usually when the crowd is clashing with law enforcement it's every day cops, not National Guard, and usually it's tear gas and riot shields not guns being used.
Usually when the cameras are on the cops are more likely to show restraint than less.
As for bald tires and such, yeah, there are certain types of tickets that you can get out of as long as you make the repair. Tail lights out and stuff like that sometimes they'll just give you a warning, but if they do give you a ticket you have a day or two to get the repair made and you can send in the receipt and get the ticket dismissed. It gets abused though. If you are tight on cash sometimes it's 'better' to just wait to see if you get a ticket.
@LSC maybe little village was implying that there is socialism in the UK and is concerned about the US headed in that direction-I really dont care for capitalism especially with regard to health care snd pharmacuiticals in the USA people here are denied that because they cant pay the price
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2011 2:47 PM
I had a chuckle at the "Looters are shot on sight" comment. I'm surprised that people believe (and post) without question a pretty wild claim like that. In an extreme case, where an armed looter has refused multiple commands to stop and drop etc., sure, but in general I don't think that is standard police procedure in a civilized country.
