I got the idea to start this thread from the "do you really need a custom harmonica thread". I thought lets talk about what people can do to help themselves. Marine Bands are the harps that need the most work because of the softwood comb and its nailed together whichs adds an obstickle that many people don't want to deal with, but I don't want this to be a Marine Band customizing thread. If we could just share want we all do to make our own harps work better. I think that will lead to some brainstroming on how the "noncustomizer" can make there own harps work well enough for them. I have alot of ideas, but I want to inject them when they will be helpfull!
Well I do the obvious full slot embossing over a light table. I guess the light table thing may seem a little much for a "non-customizer" but I was an art major, so I have these things just kind of... lying around. I've found embossing and gapping to be the biggest improvements to my harps. I tried other stuff like tip scooping and some other more obscure stuff. If you asked me, that crap only hindered my harps. Maybe with a skilled customizer it might make a positive impact, but for the guy who would prefer to spend hours playing as opposed to tinkering, I'd say stay away from it.
I think the light table is a must for embossing though. You can get small cheap ones at a local Michael's or whatever.
Btw, I don't have a UST, I just use a ratchet (i think that's what it's called) for the first 3/4 of the slot, and the screwdriver technique Jim demonstrated on his videos for the last 1/4 near the rivet.
the easiest way it to by a harp with screws and a non-porous comb. I guess that rules out a marine band. Once you have that out of the way you just need to do basic gapping. I dont think the average person needs to do any embossing unless they are at a very advanced level. I use Suzukis and because of the tight tolerances i never emboss. if you use a lot of overblows than you probably should emboss or buy what people like to call a custom harp.
As long as you don't obsess over overblowing, make sure the reeds are flat, close evenly, and are centered in the reed slot. Then gap with the harp assembled.
That will be enough for the majority of players. I am trying to get more info on the new MB combs. I would guess the harp is made with nails but the combs won't swell. If the cost stays similar, they might be an ok template, but I agree that you should get a harp that won't swell and can easily be assembled/taken apart.
Mike mentioned the most impotant thing anyone can do. That is make sure the reeds are straight! It doesn't matter what brand and/or type. That should be the very first thing everyone learns to do! Gapping is a two step process. first straighten the reed then gap it. Now if anyone actually takes my advice and does this. What you will find is if you gapp it the many you tube vieos show. You will put the curve right back into the reed. So always check the reed for staightness after gapping. If the gap is off after straightning the reed you'll have to bend it back from the rivet end. I do it about 25% of the way up the reed from the rivet. I wouldn't worry to much about embossing if you don't already do it. Get setting the reeds down first. As Mike also stated centering the reeds are important. I have to go back to work. More on centering latter.
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2011 9:03 AM
I just gap mine, make sure everything is straight, but I'm not an overblower. I really want to do some work to make the harps more comfortable, rounding corners and stuff, but I'm just not that confident with my router. I also want to retune a couple of my cheap harps to alternate tunings just to play around with them and learn tuning, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
When I buy a new harp. I take off the coverplates and check for centering an then run a 0.05 shim along the all the gaps between the reeds and slots taking care particularly with the smaller reed slots and plink each reed. I then check the gaps (found harpwrench's vids helpful for this) and set the gaps (by gently easing up the last 25% of the reed) to suit my playing style gapping the blow and draw reeds a little tighter for OB's on 4,5&6 and OD's on 7,9 and 10.
Initially I found I was gapping too tightly and although the Overblows were coming very easily the blow reeds were tending to stall or choke on normal blow notes. The sweet spot is a difficult balance to acheive.
I am a bit confused about reed straightening. Do you mean that the OOTB reeds can be sort of banana shaped in profile and that curve need taking out. Or do you mean the reed is straight throughout its length but is pitched up from increasingly from the rivet end and is not lying parallel to the reed plate.
Should the aim be to see (side on) the reed standing sligtly proud of the slot at a consistent amount along its whole length and if so how then do you gap?
Because surely if you gently raise the reed up towards its end to get the desired gap then the last part of the reed won't be straight.
Alternatively if you get the gap by easing up from the rivet end then the reed will remain straight throughout it's length but be pitched up away from the slot increasingly towards the end of the reed.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain in detail how you go about straightening then gapping in view of my confused ramblings above!
can any body help me with my special 20's Key of G mainly hole draw 1 on the attack bend, makes a ting i have found this to be the cover plate needing to be an extra 3 mill deeper on the low end of my harp! has anyone solved this for them self's and wanting to help me out. i'm going to try and hammer the plate later tonight just around the hole one end tho.
As I was reading I was thinking of the same question that GreyOwl had. I thought "straightening" might mean to make sure the reed runs straight in relation to the reed slot but then someone mentioned "centering" the reed in the reed slot.
This is a GREAT topic. Right now I do NOTHING to my harps OOTB because I really have no idea what I'm doing. I would love to have a "process" that I follow whenever I get a new harp.
---------- "I say stay long enough to repay all who cause strife."-L. Staley
Hey nacoran, I wouldn't want to use a router on a harmonica either.
I think you could get great results rounding the corners with sandpaper, shaping it with courser grades and then graduating down to fine (320+) for polishing them smooth. ---------- Shane,
What do I do to a brand-spankin' new OOTB harp? Harvey crash-coursed me on this, and I seldom have issues beyond this point.
Well, I play it first. If it works fine, don't eff with it.
If not, I make notes of what reeds, if any seem not responsive enough, or choke too easily. Pop the covers off, and get one of those thin metallic strips you find in the inside of the plastic anti-theft devices on cds, etc., and run it between the reeds and the reed plate to remove any burrs from the factory. Also, I do the hold up to the light thing to check for centered reeds, and adjust if necessary I can eyeball the gaps and tell whether I will have issues with them, and I'll adjust, then reassemble and give it a whirl.
Still not quite right? I may emboss a little-I've only done this two or three times, and I guess I was either taught well or just plain lucky, as I didn't destroy anything, and the results were positive. Check for light between the cover and reed plates. Try to make up for any noticeable leaks by making light torque adjustments on the screws when reassembling.
I often do cut to the chase and not pass go or collect 500 dollars, but go straight to Harvey's house, if for no other reason Harvey has lots of cool toys and beer and a big jug of HCH 'tap water'. ---------- Todd L. Greene
"if for no other reason Harvey has lots of cool toys and beer and a big jug of HCH 'tap water'. "
I gotta get back down there. My two partners and I have effectively divided up the country so that I end up in the West and one of them bases out of the NOLA house. Once things slow back down, I'm going to work on changing that for some variety.
I'm wondering the same as GreyOwl and jaymcc28. How do you straighten the reed? Richard Sleigh's book says reeds should be flat in profile from rivet to tip, but if they're curved, what do you do? I know others differ on this point, as I've read about tip scooping, too... ----------
SlowBlues, from what I've heard that's how to go about it, (short of just playing softer or getting a fatter comb) but I imagine it depends on the hammer. I think I'd approach it with a punch or something small, mildly sharp but not too sharp. I'd flip the cover over, set the punch gently against it and tap it with a hammer. Ideally you'd have some sort of surface with an indentation that you could gently bend the cover in to.
My G is a Lee Oskar, and it's got a slightly fatter comb than the higher harps. My LLF rattles if I play it too hard.
Is the curve in the reeds just a result of the process of punching the reeds out from a sheet of brass? Or do they purposely put a curve into the reeds at the factory?
If they're purposely adding the curve to the reeds I really don't understand why. Flatting the reeds (taking out the curve) improves the playability of the harp, especially for OBs. So purposely curving the reeds seems kind of ridiculous to me (imho).
On the other hand, if the curve in the reeds is just an natural result of the manufacturing proccess, then I understand. I wouldn't expect them to go through and flatten every reed by hand on the millions of harps they produce.
EDIT: I seem to remeber seeing one of those "how it's made" type videos (I've seen a whole bunch of different ones that feature the production of harmonicas) where they're inside a harmonica factory (probably hohner) and if I remember correctly they showed one of the steps in the process was the factory workers putting a curve into all the reeds. Although it's possible that I could be remebering this completely wrong, it was awhile ago that I saw the video.
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2011 2:50 PM
I reckon Hohner sell more harps to complete beginners, tourists, impulse buyers and kids than they do to serious players like us.
Flat reeds with a big gap is just leaky. Flat reeds with a low gap isn't good for a complete beginner.
Thus it makes sense to set the reeds for a beginner, with a slight arc so the gap can be relatively high, without opening up the whole reed slot. If they were to sell them with flat reeds and low gaps they'd even more returns filed in the same box as all the 'faulty' 2 and 3 draw harps.
The major manufacturers know that those who really need to will be able to adjust the reeds themselves.
@Slow blues. My harp teacher told me just yesterday that his customiser would raise the cover plate at the low end of the harp by inserting an old reed between the reed plate and the cover plate. I haven't tried this myself (I have ten thumbs) but it sounds like it would work...
i figure out approximately where the reed is hitting the cover plate and put a dot there with a sharpie. then i punch a relief in the cover plate with the ball end of a glass cutter and a light weight hammer. piece of cake. tape the plate to block of wood so it doesn't get away from you. the end result doesn't look half bad. ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Sorry guys! This is a very busy time of the year for me and and don't have much extra time. First never start just running something along the reed slot without looking at the reedplate with a light source. Your flying blind! Second straightening the reed means the reed itself. The reed has to be prefectly straight! The reed has to be perfectly straight! The reed has to be perfectly straight! Do not assume the manufacturer did it right. They don't! Thats why Brad Hrrison will be out of business soon. It cost to much to make a great harp. Grey and old (oh I forgot the owl part sorry) yes your you right by gapping the way you described you are as much harm as good! I know but my harps work good this way for my style. Thats only because you haven't done it the "right way" and compared the two. This the major drawback for people that play stock Marine Bands. How do you get to the blow reeds without taking it apart? Centering is the relationship between the reed and the slot.
@ chromaticblues. Any chance of description of your technique to straighten a reed or even a vid. sometime.
The only other resource I found was this vid where he describes 'arcing'. Presumably you will be manipulating the reed something along these lines in order to straighten the reed or maybe not? If this vid is something completely different can you clarify what you do.
Thanks
btw I always inspect the reed plates before shimming the slots.
Yes Greyowl that is the same thing. I don't do it that way, but he is doing the same thing. Did you notice the curve in the reed and how flat it was when he was done? I'll put the reedplate on a paper notebook with the reeds facing down and useing a jewelers screwdriver (about the thickness of the reed) I rub the underside of the reed gently about 4 or 5 times and this removes the curve. I know WTF is that. You just have to try it and you'll see what I mean. Go easy is the most important thing and rub the part that you want to remove the curve from. Sometimes reeds are bent the other way. then you can just use the what ever you use to gap with and just pull up on the end of the reed untill its straight. The there will be a huge gap. Push down 20 to 25% up from the rivet. I do all my inspecting with a magnifying glass. I just look down the side of the reed and keep messin with it untill its prefect! I also look at the end of the reed to make sure the reed tip is parralell to the reedplate. If not you have to twist the reed. OK back to work!
@ verylongname I totally agree with your post. Most people that buy harmonicas don't give a shit about this stuff. Many good harp players refuse to learn it. Little Walter, Paul Butterfield and Magic Dick didn't do that shit why should I have to? Answer: You don't! I'm just shareing some things that can help if you choose to do so. I've bought about 1000 harmonica and some were just useless the day I bought it and I got sick of wasting my money. So I started figuring out why some worked well and why others didn't. Tuning marks! Lets talk about what to do with that!
Thanks for the feedback. Your method sounds easier, I'll give it a try.
Just one question, when you've straightened the reed and say it's lying then completely parallel to the reed plate with no gap. How do you then set the gap?
A gentle easing up of the whole reed from the rivet end or an easing up of say the last 25% of the end of the reed?
@ Greyoldowl I lay the reedplate down on the note book with the reeds fave down agian and push about 25% up from the rivet. Go easy! you don't want to bend it to far. Make small adjustments and take your time. Frequently checking your work with a magnifying glass.
I was answering REM's question, which was, if flat reeds are better, why do manufacterers set up harps with the reeds arced? - I wasn't knocking the thread or criticising people for wanting to do this stuff. Just saying that out of the box harps are setup for beginners (and those that don't need greater responsiveness)
Personally I think flattening the reeds is the number one adjustment that makes a difference and I think this is a great thread!
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2011 10:35 AM
@longname You must have misunderstood me. I knew what you were doing. I was agreeing with you and talking about the manufacturing process that puts the curve in the reeds. The most of the people don't give a shit about this. Wasn't directed at or to you. Sorry for that. That is just the truth and I think its to bad more harp players don't get involved tweaking there own harps. Sorry if my posts are alittle choppy. I don't have alot of time to do this and I just type what I'm thinking at the time. I went back and read my post and yes it sounded or read like I was saying something about someone that was complaining about the post. No thats not it. I should have hit enter and put that on the next line! I just know most harp players think this stuff is unnesessary. I think thats where that came from?
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2011 10:59 AM
Something I've not bothered with, also (kind of related), I've often wondered whether heavy tuning would have an adverse affect by messing up the reed profile (as in longitudinal cross-section)
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2011 11:11 AM
"I just know most harp players think this stuff is unnesessary."
Of course there's the other kind of player who realizes the value customizing and tweaking holds, but is abruptly stopped by the other voice in his head that says "oh great, one more thing I can prove to myself I suck at"....or "hey, it looks so easy in the video"
You know the type (ahem), you still haven't got all the bends on the three hole draw down pat, and despite the amazing slowdowner, you're still not quite sure WHAT Magic Dick's doing on Whammer Jammer, so you figure "I know, it's the harp! The effing harp needs tweaking!"
So you open it up, you're bending reeds, straightening reeds, embossing, polishing, sealing the comb with Aunt Mable's Magic Blues Harp Comb Sealant (or some stuff that the guy at the local Sherwin Wiliams hardware store recommended...after all, he plays the spoons), the cat's using the reedplates as his new chew toy.
And then you take stock of the situation.
My bends aren't any better, Magic Dick's still a freakin' mystery, I'm gonna need some oven mits to get those reedplates back from the cat. How the hell did I get sealant on the antique table, and why are there five extra reeds on the kitchen counter?
So there's THAT to consider....er...I mean there's those kind of players to consider.
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2011 3:26 PM
Great. I broke 2 combs learning how to drill for screws; now I'm gonna wreck reeds learning how to center them. LOL. Thank God for ebay! Great thread.
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2011 3:35 PM
Honkin On Bobo Thats good! Not all funny though.Alot of truth in that I know. You just gotta try or you'll never get a handle on it! Polishing reeds! Removing the milling marks. Thats all it is. If you look at the underside of a reed it is smooth. I use a very fine flexable nail file. I tried the dremel, but it makes a mess. Polishing does make a difference. It makes the reed more stable in bends and should last longer because your removing a likely fail spot. Well your actually removing 20 or so per reed. Go easy here. DO NOT go any further than the milling marks. You'll loose volume if you go to far. I do it untill the milling mark is almost gone. OK this goes for those nasty tuning marks near the rivet end also. Sand them untill the milling marks are gone. If the marks are still there the reed is garbage! You'll have replace the reed.
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2011 4:59 PM
ok, what about the low reeds with the extra brass on the tip? if the bottom of the reed (the surface facing the reed plate) is perfectly flat, the top has a curve. what is the purpose of having it flat? is it because of the bottom or the overall weight distribution on the reed?
i will say that looking at reeds in harps from some of the top customizers, they are not all flat.
Chromatic....you said "I'll put the reedplate on a paper notebook with the reeds facing down and useing a jewelers screwdriver (about the thickness of the reed) I rub the underside of the reed gently about 4 or 5 times and this removes the curve."
Screwdriver?Would this not scrap/rub brass from the reed of scratch it? Possibly taking it out of tune.
@Big Daddy Ray No These aren't suggestions. This is stuff that I have done that works. Alot of this stuff is hard to translate into words, but I use a small flat blade srewdriver and hold it at about a 45 degree angle and with light pressure pull the screwdriver toward me. I have the rivet face down and closest to me (the reed tip furthest away). It takes alittle while to get good at doing it that way. You can just bend it with a small screwdriver and hold it with something else. I'm sure there are a hundred ways of doing it. @ Tag YES! You have to retune it after you do all this. @walterharp I believe what your refering to is the lower reeds that are wieghted have a slieght bend up at the wieght. This an acceptable practice. I'm not saying its wrong. What I have found though is to be able to play an 1 hole OB both reeds have to be striaght! After figuring out how to make harps OB better I noticed it makes everything work better. As far as the wieghts at the end of the reed. Yes you are right. If you look at them with a magnifying glass you'll see they are usually filed more on one side than the other (thank you very much tuners, keep up the good work). This is or can be a problem. What can happen is when you push the harp to its limits. Like bending a 2 draw down almost to the 2 blow note. If you aren't great at it and the reeds aren't perfect its going to get unstable and make funny noises. Now the easiest thing to do is play all your bends in perfect pitch and don't push your harp so you can leave them in your will for your grandkids. Or you can ask well why can't I. Part of learning how to "customize" harps (its really just fixing them for the most part) is not only dealing with the defects, but take apart your harp that works perfect. Or even a certain hole that is perfect and compare it to a harp of the same key that doesn't work as well. Something is different! Learn the differences and learn how to correct them! Edit @Big Daddy Ray I just thought of this in response to your inquiry about scratching the underside of the reed. Yes I agree thats not something you want to do, but If your scrapping brass off your doing WAY to hard! If you leave microscopic scratches that are parralell with the reed. That shouldn't cause any problems.
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2011 5:09 AM
Reminds me how I'd curl a ribbon on a Christmas gift with a blade from a scissors.
So when massaging the reed with a screwdriver are you really just creating heat on that side of the reed, which causes shrinkage, and therefore causes the reed to to straighten?
If this is true, it seems like a more permanent way to straighten a reed than just bending it straight. Since the reed has a "memory" that it would like to return to after it's bent. Seems to me that massaging (heating) the reed would remove this "memory"? ----------
