I am embarrassed to admit, except for gapping and embossing, most harp machinery (and life machinery in general) is excruciatingly hard for me.
Okay, I just sat down for 2 hours for my latest attempt to really learn tuning. I have taken a lesson, bought Sleigh's book and tool kit, got a Peterson strobe tuner and tried around ten times to tune an entire harp.
Today I tried two harps.
I am constantly bending reeds out of playability, knocking them irretrievably out of center, turning them into sounding like a party favor kazoo. For those who have a Peterson, sometimes it seems like some bars say it's flat, some say it is sharp!
I couldn't find my little $20 chromatic tuner, wish I could.
I also tried the Einstein tuning table, again, it busted reeds.
People are always saying try it on old harps until you get the hang of it. I wish I knew if I was getting the hang of it or doing something severely wrong. How many harps did it take before you really got the hang of it?
It does take a bit of getting used to before you figure out what works for you. I've tried many different setups for tuning, and have found one that works for me using a tool given to me by the late Chris Michalek.
One thing I might recommend for you to try is using the BluTak method that was shown to me by Brendan Power. It's a really nice intro to tuning as you aren't filing any material from the reeds. Instead, you add a very small amount of the BluTak (smaller than you'd think) to the tip of the reed, which lowers the pitch a bit. I've used it to lower reeds by a whole tone or more. It doesn't work very well for raising the pitch (i.e., by adding BluTak to the base of the reed), but you can get it to raise by a few cents, which is useful for changing the temperament. I've done several harps this way, and it really works well (and seems to stay in tune). Best of all, it's reversible, so you can't really make a mistake. This also means that you can experiment with various temperaments or tuning arrangements without having to fully commit your harp to that tuning.
Also, if you've filed a bit too much off a reed (who hasn't?!?), you can bring it back down into tune with a tiny tiny bit of BluTak, so it's also a way to rescue some of your other tuning experiments that have gone awry.
I think there is quite a bit of info on the BluTak method if you search the archives here at MBH and over on HarpTalk.
I have never even attempted to tune a single reed, but may I suggest something. (I'm just guessing...I know NUTHING.):
Get a thin piece of metal...like a...I dunno; maybe one of those 1/2 inch wide spark plug gappers er sumthin' and lay it under the reed while you chisle..I mean file it. This might stablize it so you don't bend it.
I have only tried software tuners. Different software acts differently. The one I use now is a free download from the Seydel website.
You will get variation of pitch with the same reed. Variations in breath force change pitch. Also, as you blow on it, you warm it up and the pitch changes. Pat Misson recomends warming up the plate before you start tuning it.
If you are knocking the reeds out of center, it makes me wonder what type of stroke you are using when you grind on the reed. I use strokes that are in the direction away from the rivet.(with some exceptions) ---------- The WV State Harmonica Championship at The Diamond Teeth Mary Blues Festival Aug 27th & 28th 2011, Huntington,WV
I had read a few approaches, but took on my first major tuning project after reading a lot of Pat Missin's material from his site, and I successfully tuned an A harp down a semitone to an Ab to complete my key set.
I use little strips of emery cloth curled around the tip of my finger like a tank tread. I sand along the length of the reed so as to not create any scoring across the reed.
I try to focus the impact of the scraping within a 3/16" long zone or so.
I intend to get a set of those craft sticks he mentions, I've seen them at Woodcrafter's in Austin, to me those look like the best tools (way more precise than finger tip.
As far a using chromatic tuner, I have to really consciously try to blow/draw evenly and with as dead neutral embouchure as I can muster up.
Now I have a project in process which is tuning an old marine band C (the gold anniversary one) to Brendan's powerbender tuning. It is definitely a level up in complexity because some of the changes are pretty large between tunings.
I'm trying to avoid bluetack because my harps are often exposed to high heat and I don't trust the stuff to not get soft. I may cave in for the powerbender project however. ---------- Shane,
With regard to the Powerbender, you are better off to swap the blow and draw reeds on the top two holes--otherwise you are borrowing trouble. I like the sanding wands from MicroMark. And "Crazy" Bob Coble turned me on to a battery powered engraving tool I picked up at Lowe's, very low torque, perfect for tuning. He also sent me some Shofu brownies, those are really better for polishing than removing material. And of course, files are my friends now 8) Hey Michael, just stay after it, you can certainly do this if you can play bass harmonica and harmonetta 8^)
I am being learning harmonica for a short time but yesterday I became aware about how much time I was losing with things different from music, like tuning, embossing, gapping,..., I don't want to be a luthier, I just want to play harmonica the best I can. I promised myself not to lose more of my precious time in this kind of operations. Anyway, to tune an harmonica is an easy operation, you just need the proper tools.
If time is costly, I think is cheaper to send the harmonica to a customizer.
That's the nature of harmonica. If you want to play complicated things on the diatonic, you need to become a luthier. Or find someone who will do this for you. Or quit.
Jim, Obviously the problem is multi fold. However, do you own, or have you ever owned a Peterson Strobe tuner? There are 4 lines of rectangle going high and low. The biggest rectangles stop moving when you are kind of in tune, the smallest when you are really in tune. Sometimes the rectangles shake so fast it is difficult to tell if the note is high or low. Later, I found my $20 tuner. ALthough nowhere near as precise, there was never any question as to whether it was high or low. So, I believe the problem is partly in the tuner.
Perhaps it's not the strobe tuner but reading the strobe tuner. I seen one of those things in action and had little idea what was going on, lol. The chromatic tuner Ive used may not be as spot on or give as much info but it's quick & easy to see what's going on as I shave very little bits of metal at a time.
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
I have peterson iStrobosoft tuner. Yes, it is the same type of tuner.
You need a tuner that can show deviations in cents. My peterson is a software tuner, so it shows the strobe, the cents, and the hertz.
Just the strobe is useful is you need to tune very precisely to an absolute pitch (i.e. 12 ET). If you're tuning to JI/compromise, you need to be able to see the deviation.
Sounds like you're using a virtual strobe tuner, not a real mechanical strobe. Huge difference, I find the virtuals intolerable after using the real deal. If you don't want to invest in the real thing, then the AP tuner is a free download. Easy to read and more accurate than the cheap Korgs (which are also useful, especially when retuning to different notes).
well... suppose it's 4 draw, tuned to 443. That gives us about +20 cents in 440hz. If you are not relaxed while drawing, the reed will play much flatter. Well, ok, maybe 40 cents range is indeed too much but anyway this can be a huge problem for some.
by the way - if a reed goes sharp as you increase volume/pressure - this means it is not centered near the rivet.
Not always. Other reasons would be a burr from embossing or tuning, that can effectively make the reed shorter when making contact under harder pressure. Or a reed not fully seated at the base, making contact when played hard (effectively shortening the reed again), or a defective reed is sometimes the culprit.
The difference to the user is that a real strobe tuner is very stable and usable, virtual strobe is jittery and frustrating, like it's confused by what it's hearing. I use a 450 autostrobe, and have a spare in case it gets struck by lightning. It's that important to the efficiency and quality of my work, and pays for itself in time saved. I'm a conservative guy and wouldn't spend the $$ if this weren't the case.
Personally, I use a Peterson Flip, and I had all the problems you guys are talking about, until I learned how to make it work for me.
I use a small microphone from an old tape deck, with a very short cord and cup it like I was playing when I tune. That way the bars are very stable and do not pick up extraneous noise. As for the multiple bars, the higher you go on the harmonica that you are tuning, the less bars you will have to deal with.
I have set up several tuning schemes, one for my favorite compromised just, one for 19 limit, one for my favorite minor tuning. Then, I just set my root note, and the tuner does the rest.
Personally, I tune to 444 with minimal air pressure. The more pressure you apply, the flatter the reed becomes. If you have to use a lot of pressure, then you have to tuneat 442 or 443 or lower. The idea is to wind up where lyou want to be at performing pressure.
You guys are right about the Strobe tuner jumping around pretty fast if the tuning is not close. I use a cheap Korg tuner to get me in the ball park. It really is not too hard, just time consuming. What I do, is make a chart of the current tuning, with the harp all put together, and jot down the cent sharp or flat for all 20 reeds. Then I take the harp apart, and tune the whole thing using a sanding wand. I have done enough of them to know pretty much how many strokes of the wand to give each reed to raise or lower one cent. I normally come pretty close on the first try. ----------
Jim, I watched your video on tuning on your free learning center page. Thanks. I like the feeling gauge as support idea. Do other people agree with Jim not to raise the pitch on the high notes? Jim, when do the high notes start? Hole 7? Would that be different on a low pitch harp? Harvey, I also use a Peterson Stroboflip and will try your mic idea. Thanks. Harvey, can you teach me to program the flip because right now I am plugging in for every interval cent number. Harvey, where can I buy a sanding wand? Do you recommend a brand? What is the estimated cost? Jim same questions on a good file. Currently I use Sleigh's file. Shanester, same questions on emery cloth. Thanks to everyone. My questions might seem obvious, but the machinery world is a total mystery to me.
1) I have made a separate thread about tuning software on the forum
2) I think with Hohners the top reeds start with hole 7. I don't recommend trying to raise the pitch by a semitone there, because you have very small space for filing at the tip of the reed. You file off those 2-3mm and that's it - it stays 10-20 cents flat and starts going flatter.
Not claiming you can't raise them, but you risk killing a reed that way.
The key of the reed is not important because it is just very short.
3) Any jeweller file I guess... The one that comes in the seydel toolkit is ok. Works well for steel.
indeed, sometimes it seems a tuner can't make up its' mind and sometimes it seems completely deaf to say, the one draw. sometimes i use a contact mic, don't let it smash the reeds, and it will hear everything but not get confused w/ overtones. if the reed still won't give a consistent reading i'll remove it because it is more efficient than trouble shooting the cause of this hellish outrage.:) ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
i think most players decide to learn tuning because of reed failure. i did. i didn't know that those flat reeds were way past their shelf life.
tuning, in my opinion, is an art form and some people have it and some don't. just like playing, it requires a lot of talent.
the first time i played a harp tuned by a top customizer i was floored. i'd never heard a harp that was so perfectly in tune.
in some cases it's best to surrender your harp to harpwrench or other customizers on the board. i mean, i can install a new radiator but the hell if i'm gonna do it myself. too much time ,sweat, and agravation. ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
MP - Yes I agree tuning is pretty much an art form. My harps sound ok most of the time to me, but I'd love to have someone like Joe Spiers tune up a harp or two for me. Just to see how close my tuning really is.
Not always the case, I've repaired many harps that were in perfect tune other than the blown reed they came in for. Quality of initial work will affect lifespan.
a fellow recently asked me to replace a reed on a seydel 1847
i don't work on seydels, so of course i declined. anyway, don't the 1847s have stainless steel reeds? ------- kingley, it messed with my head :)i had to rethink and relearn everything. careful of what you wish for...
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
@arzajac: "Can/would you gig with a Blue Tak'd harp?"
I have played out with BluTak'ed harps. Once tuned with the proper amount of BluTak, they are as stable as any other harp. Just don't go sticking anything down the reedslots, and be very careful if you take the coverplates off!
I remember that Brendan Power told me that quite a few of his gigging set of harps were BluTaked, but I'll let him confirm that if he reads this... ---------- == I S A A C ==
so isaac, to apply blu tak, do you roll a tiny piece of it into a tiny ball with your thumb and index finger, spear it w/ something sharp, and then stick it to the reed? just curious. ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
I've got a couple of harps that i Paddyied using blu tack.Two years down the track it is still there on those 3 blow reeds. The 'trick' with blue tak is to think of the amount you'll need to drop a reed pitch ,halve it and then halve it again. A semitone can be done with as little as a decent fly speck worth of Tak I use a toothpick to apply it.Delicate work but hey in the end you can't really do any damage and its totally reversible. Magic!
Though not tuning hell, the endeavour to get complete beatless octaves gets me very frustrated.
What mouth position should one use? Or is it just a matter of keeping it consistent?
I’m now using the sevenstring online tuner, and I get a deviation of about 10 cents depending on my embouchure (the volume is steady). The 1-4 draw and blow I can get perfect, they sound wonderful, but especially the 5-8 blow and the higher draw octaves are problematic.
I’ve gotten best results by blowing/drawing as soft as possible, just enough to make the reed move. This seems most stable, but it’s still far from ideal. And I’ve seen the Richard Sleigh video and another one from an Asian gentleman and the are blowing with way more volume.
Is it possible to get all octaves perfect with that online tuner or a cheap guitartuner, or is a strobetuner the only way?
K Hungus You don't need an expensive tuner to tune your harps. You can do it with a cheap chromatic $20 tuner very effectivly! With a cheap tuner you have to use your ears as the finnal judge. To me thats the way it should be! OK to answer your question use the tuner to see what reed is high or low then tune that one accordingly little by little untill you get it. Yes your right you have to test everything with consistance breathing. Thats the key! And yes the cheap tuners bounce all over the place. It has to be quit!! I can only do it when all my noise makers are not at home (I mean family). Same thing with the chords. Tune them then listen. Is it right or not? You have to be able to hear it. Useing a cheap tuner has taught me to be more aware of the actual tuning of my harps.
Hey chromaticblues, the thing is I don't always know which reed is high or low. There's to much variance on the tuner.
Or can you hear it in the sound? I can only hear the pulsing..if it goes faster after filling, I should do the oposite that's all I know. I'll consider a chromatic tuner, thanks
I use the iStrobosoft tuner on my iPod touch. The built in mic works fine. Once I learned to use a consistant minimal amount of air when I hit each note, it works well. I tuned all my harps up in a few weeks. I don't tune many harps...just my own, so for like $10, it works for me.
Hey MP, sorry to have taken so long to respond, I've been traveling (I'm in Spain right now for a dig), but to answer your question, what I do is to roll out a really thin "snake" of BluTak, and snip off a little bit from the end of the "snake" with and X-acto knife. Then, using the tip of that x-acto knife, I position the bit of BluTak on the tip of the reed, and then sort of very lightly "squish" it in place with my thumb and forefinger. Then I shape the blob with the tip of the x-acto so that it sits nicely and evenly on the tip of the reed. Then I test for pitch. 99% of the time, you've taken it down too far, so you have to remove a bit of the BluTak. I just sort of scrape a bit away from the lower end of the blob with the blade of the X-acto knife.
Jehosephat is right about the amount. It's not much. Once you do one reed, you'll get the idea of how much to use, and I actually find that I can estimate the correct amount pretty well the first time (to within a few cents, actually). One other thing is that you need less BluTak to lower the pitch of higher reeds to the same number of cents as a lower reed (hope that makes sense). It's actually pretty easy once you get the hang of it. I've done about 5 or 6 harps with this method now, including 2 powerbenders. Just to give you a perspective, it only took me about 30 minutes to do the last Powerbender with the BluTak method. If I was filing, it would have taken several sessions over several days. ---------- == I S A A C ==
Hey Isaac, what do you do to raise the pitch of the 9 and 10 Draw on a PowerBender? Do you just file away, swap reeds or something else?
I was working out a way on paper to do it "by ear" with BluTak. I wanted to try it this weekend. I reckon I will try as follows:
(In strict order!) Drop 10B to equal 10D Drop 9B to equal 8B Drop 8B to equal 7B/4B Drop 7B to equal 10B/6D Drop 6D to equal 6B/2D Drop 6B to equal 5D Drop 5D to equal 5B Drop 5B to equal 4D Raise 10D to equal 8B Raise 9D to equal 6D
I probably will end up needing to use my tuner, but I was just wondering...
Gnarly: BlueTak works to lower the pitch of a reed, but not so much to raise it.
Brendan Power doesn't swap reeds when he retunes a harp to Powerbender tuning. And he's been retuning harps for longer than some people on this forum have been alive. I'm pretty sure there's a better way to do it than to swap reeds.
By better, I mean easier/quicker with less chance of my hands wrecking a harp.
@arzajac: I just file the top two draw reeds down. Honestly, that's the "trickiest" part of doing a powerbender with the BluTak method, and it's not event hat tricky. The major issue is that you are filing a reasonable amount away from the tip of those two reeds, so you make a substantial burr on the end of the reed that you have to remove (very carefully) or else the reed will get stuck. Plus, you are making those two reeds pretty thin, so it's now easier than ever to bend them too much when resetting the gaps. But it's not that hard, just use a good shim to support the reed, and file slowly in one direction (that direction is base to tip) to remove the material in the top 1/4 of the reed. ---------- == I S A A C ==
