So, can a comfortably off, middle class, black man play the blues?
Because the lifestyle & environment that spawned the blues has changed does that mean that the blues should be forgotten & left for dead?
What about black people from other nations than the US - as, what, 95% of black people are, most with very little, or no interest in the blues?
Some people love the blues, some of those people play the blues, some are black some are white some are of other ethnicities, some have/had hard lives (as do many, many more people in the world who do not play the blues), some still do have hard lives, some don't...google Venn diagrams. The blues was originated by African Americans, like jazz, soul & hip hop...but now the genie is well and truly out of the bottle...discussions as to whether/if/why it should be crammed back in there, rather than popularised & celebrated, seems to be more the territory of political pundits rather than musicians.
It's perhaps harder for us outside of the US to see the broader issues with the same sense of perspective, anyone from this side of the Atlantic, irrespective of skin colour, bank balance, day job or ethnicity, has to learn it.
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2011 1:42 PM
Eddie T here is a little food for thought by one of my favorite contemporary black artists, Cee Lo Green.
Yes, every race has suffered, and black people's experience in America is distinct, I guess the degree to which one suffers is subject to interpretation.
I don't disagree with what you're saying, however I don't think that is what I was saying. I'm in no way comparing "suffering." I'm not even talking about suffering or hardships. I'm only talking about comparisons of certain lifestyles and things that might be created out of that. I myself have suffered certain hardships that I won't get into here...lets just call it bad living. But that is not the same as the next guys. Someone could write about my life (believe me there is a book there!) but it wouldn't be the same as my experience. So using a comparison of the Chinese sufferings you mention. If they were to write music or create art from the experience it would be "theirs." I couldn't copy it with the same feeling they created it as a group.
All I'm saying is that sometimes people, as a group, create something that is based on their own culture and to try and copy it..."sometimes" it comes out as just that, a copy. That goes for black, white, Chinese, pink, blue whatever. It has nothing to do with comparing hardships or races; only experiences.
There is a similar argument in the karate world. Somethings in karate just can't be understood by many westerners because they just don't come from the same culture that the art was created from. Many westerners are actually better than some of their Asian counterparts, but their understanding of the art differs and is lacking due to not being raised in that culture. Sorry for any confusion in my first post.
I don't think color or race has anything to do with it...that's not what I was saying. However I do think that blues is its own thing and even though someone can learn all the songs and notes, unless they understand "The Blues," it just won't be.
On another note. RE: SRV. In my book he is/was #1 as far as blues guitar goes. My absolute favorite.
I didn't intend for this thread to re-litigate the question of whether white people can or should play the blues. My own feeling on that is a great big "duh!" Of course they can, and of course they should.
The question at hand is: Stipulating that we all agree that they/we can and should play the blues, what are some all-time best performances?
It's precisely because the question isn't usually asked this way that I'm asking it this way. I'm asking about white blues acts and artists who manifest originality, personality, soulfulness, power, grace, and subtlety. I'm asking about which non-African-America blues acts and artists--and specific recorded performances--deserve to be called "among the very best of all time" when they're competing (so to speak) on a playing field that includes the many brilliant African American blues artists that we all know and admire. I framed the question polemically and offered one suggestion.
There's no need to relitigate the other question. We've litigated it extensively in several other threads. If you'd like to pursue THAT issue, be my guest:
This has been posted before, apologies if it's getting old hat, but Little George used to be in Big Joe's Blues Kings, playing harp & vocals on "Stars in The Sky" & "Big 16" albums they still do the odd gig together...one of his soulier offerings, but he plays & sings the blues as good as he does soul...
I can't pin down blues. Here are a few that are bluesy that I really like, but I'm not sure I'd put them up as quintessential blues... (obviously a couple of them are covers of standards, but I'm particularly found of these versions.
Also another a little more leftfield, perhaps more country/Americana than blues - William Elliot Whitmore
C. W. Stoneking, anyone?
I really rate Ian Siegal. While you hear the influences I think he's an excellent songwriter and singer
Jimbo Mathus
and lastly, from even further away from the source, New Zealand's Darren Watson. This particular track is a cover, but he's also imo a fine songwriter.
@ Nacoran...and we kind of come full circle...St James Infirmary..
"The title is derived from St. James Hospital in London, a religious foundation for the treatment of leprosy. It was closed in 1532 when Henry VIII acquired the land to build St. James Palace.[2]
The song was first collected in England in its version as "The Unfortunate Rake" by Henry Hammond by a Mr. William Cutis at Lyme Regis, Dorset in March 1906."
A provocative topic, indeed. I read the question below as, " are there more white folks playing/fans of the blues?" or "is there racial bias towards the white folks, at the exclusion of black folks in blues today"?
I bet the folks at "Living Blues" would argue towards the latter. It seems they choose to only grudgingly aknowledge that white people play the blues at all.
here's the quote:
Adam (Kudzurunner) wrote: " By the same token, when Blues Revue magazine contains an ad for a so-called "blues festival" in which each of the six acts is entirely made up of white musicians--this at a time when it's not really all THAT hard to find black blues players in California--then the white blues haters just MIGHT have a point. Is the contemporary blues scene really THAT white? Or is it possible that subtle sorts of discrimination, sometimes called "structural racism," are at work?"
I've had the working assumption (based on a decent amount of empirical data) that the contemporary blues scene just has more white members and fans. It's as if black culture invents something and then moves on, while middle-class white cats (like myself) want more often, to pick up the mantle after the fact. Caveat to this is that I am a middle-class suburban white cat, so I may indeed be biased towards and/or select for others like me.
Maybe because my bent is more traditional, I encounter more traditional-type blues players. The instances during which I encountered more black people in a blues context, they tend to be playing a much more broad spectrum of music, or they are much older.
A young black man playing blues in the blues scenes I've been a part of (San Diego, Connecticut, Durham, NC)is a rarity. So then, am I only seeing the "white blues scene" or is there indeed a predominance of caucasians playing the blues?
To bring it home to the list, how many African American attendees were there (or give a percent) at HCHII? Not many by my observations. Was this structural racism? Could be. Felt like an inclusive environment to me, so why wasn't there more of a mix?
One thought is that there really are two distinct racial cultures at play in this country. Like I said, I'm immersed in white-dominant blues. Is there a black-dominant under-50 blues scene? If so, I want to copy them and steal all their cool ideas (j/k) ---------- 12gagedan's YouTube Channel
It's too bad there isn't an easy way to just set everything in a thread up to play one after another. I suppose you could make a playlist on YouTube... I can't use my account- too many links to videos that would violate the forum creed, even if most of them are insanely funny. :) Maybe sometime I'll set up a second account just for threads.
@Eddie T, I am merely saying that the experience is distinct, not that it is better or worse than any other experience, nor am I arguing that white people shouldn't play the blues,
I've been to Africa too like many privileged mzungu so nanny nanny boo boo! ;)
I'm only awake because of the miracle of modern insomnia, so forgive me for not posting any links right now. I'm really enjoying the thread -- at least the posts that stick closely to Adam's premise. Anyway, my nominations for mega heavy duty white blues players with an original voice both as a singer and instrumentalist: Gregg Allman for sure. Lowell George. Paul deLay. SRV. Dr. John. William Clarke. Delbert McClinton. And lastly, while he's not really necessarily blues per se (he's not always country per se), I have to include Willie Nelson.
There are a boatload of cover tunes posted here...and I'm not always certain the poster realizes that they are covers....some are very fine indeed and worth listening to but it is sort of derailing the original thread, or at least diluting it. Here's one off the top of my head: White guy, innovator, original, and blues:
"Arguably the greatest "white blues" recording"-- bound to be a provocative topic. "Arguably"-- a term that academics use when they are really saying, "I'm guessing, but I'm prepared to argue the point if you disagree". I used it myself, often, in my university papers long ago.
Here are my candidates for great white blues recordings. I can't and won't say "greatest"; that's an impossible task:
1. Roy Orbison singing "Candy Man", written by the great 1960s singer/songwriter Fred Neil
2. Coincidentally, Fred Neil's "Blues on the Ceiling", found on his first Elektra album, Bleecker & MacDougal (1965). Read about Fred, and listen to a snippet of that song, on allmusic.com, if you've not heard it. John Sebastion (Loving Spoonful) plays harp on the album, though not on that song.
3. Elvis Presley singing Arthur Crudup's "My Baby Left Me". I know Elvis didn't write the song (he didn't write any), but he brought a whole new approach to it, an approach that helped kick start the rock & roll era.
About blues, and black and white, this blues loving, blues playing Viking comes at the issue from another perspective. I don't believe for a minute you have to have had a harsh life to be able to play and sing the blues. The blues can hit every socioeconomic group, and every race. You just have to feel it. The predominant theme in blues, the tension between the sexes, affects every one of us, straight or gay, unless we've been neutered.
Thank you for mentioning Elvis Presley. I hesitated to mention him due to the "original song/not a cover" factor, but certainly any discussion that even touches on "white" and "blues" needs to have Elvis in the mix. He is the most influential white artist who ever played blues...arguably, that is.
@12gagedan: Re: "[H]ow many African American attendees were there (or give a percent) at HCHII? Not many by my observations. Was this structural racism? Could be. Felt like an inclusive environment to me, so why wasn't there more of a mix?"
You've completely missed the point. When I invoked that ad for a California blues festival (which I really did see in the aforementioned blues magazine six or seven years ago) that had photos for six bands, none of which had a black member, I wasn't talking about the festival attendees. I was talking about the bands. The promoter isn't responsible for who shows up to the event; every promoter I know does his best to spread to word widely. What he's responsible for is the musicians he selects and pays.
There may not have been many African American attendees at HCH--only a self-selected handful--but there were quite a few African American musicians on the bandstand, as you know, and this wasn't accidental. It may be hard to achieve such diversity in Idaho, home of Jonny Lang and John Nemeth, but it's pretty easy to achieve in Mississippi--and in coastal California, if the promoters care about such things. I do. The promoters of the blues festival I was describing clearly didn't
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2011 7:22 AM
"A young black man playing blues in the blues scenes I've been a part of (San Diego, Connecticut, Durham, NC)is a rarity. So then, am I only seeing the "white blues scene" or is there indeed a predominance of caucasians playing the blues?"
In the blues band I play in (populated by all white guys), our drummer has degree in music and also happens to be a first call jazz player, as well as a kick ass blues drummer, so sometimes he's not available to play all the gigs we book. We have 2 really good drummers we use to substitute. Both are black guys in their 20s who play their asses off. One is a music major and the other already has his degree and both can nail blues grooves with authority and finesse.
Blues is a style of music invented by American blacks but which, at this point in the 21st century knows no color. IMHO, the important consideration is how well the musician functions in the blues idiom.
I'm in Ohio, about an hour from Detroit. There's white blues bands, black blues bands and no lack of mixed race blues bands around here.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 12:25 PM
I would submit to the forum that Mike Bloomfield made the first "white" blues recordings back in 1963 for Columbia, several years before Johnny Winter. I further would sub section him into the category "White Jewish Blues Artists" or Jewsicians for short, Professor Gussow.
Michael Bloomfield spent his formative years in South Side blues haunts playing with a wide spectrum of blues artists: Yank Rachell, Little Brother Montgomery, Sleepy John Estes, Muddy, Otis Spann, Buddy, Jr, etc., travel and apprenticed with Big Joe Williams, and had his Bar Mitzvah all before exploding on the scene with The Paul Butterfield Blues band.
Oh shit, I forgot, before joining Butter, he recorded a song with another White Jew that was name by Rolling Stone Magazine as the number 1 song of all time, "Like a Rolling Stone." Oh my heavens, Bloomers sold out and made the biggest pop hit of all time and continue to make music with Dylan. That's disgusting!!! This should guarantee him a one way ticket to Blues Hell!
But alas, thankfully Bloomfield found his way again, exploded on the scene with Butterfield, then the Electric Flag, and Al Kooper. All the while, he remained true to himself and blues music. He left behind a decent body of material across the blues spectrum and did it with a totally original voice. Bloomfield is one of the few electric blues guitarist who mastered not only the styles of BB King, but Albert King and Otis Rush.
The Allman's Bros "Southbound" is a superbly composed tune, complete with the requisite stops, solo breaks and a heavy hook anchored by Chuck Leavell, a very well crafted song. It's like if you wanted to make the perfect blues song, yah dig? Like if the band Boston make a blues song. Or not to be so glib, Steve Miller (think, Rocking Me Baby.) Now compare that song to Bloomfield's "Carmelita Skiffle." It's just a basic shuffle, you know, a Ford Tempo, with no bells and whistle. But it is his solo structure, it tells a story like a C&W song and rings like a clarion calling.
Alas,today there is really no Bloomfield legacy. The Ford Brothers have done some things over the years that I like. And Columbia released some stuff years ago. There are SRV, BB King, hendrix and Duane Allman sound alikes out there, but no one is covering Mike.
Mike Bloomfiled's name lives on a bunch of signature Les Paul guitars and millions of commercial coffee machines across North America.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 1:06 PM
"Blues is a style of music invented by American blacks but which, at this point in the 21st century knows no color. IMHO, the important consideration is how well the musician functions in the blues idiom."
Great statement. I agree with this. I was kind of trying to make this point but my writing style wasn't translating my thoughts properly.
I tend to compare traditions in most things I do. I wasn't comparing today to today. The blues has evolved into what we have today and it is in many regards better imo. But it has moved on somewhat from its origins. But I also have the opinion that the hippie music of the 60's evolved also and today we have great players and the music has changed.... evolved. Yeterdays music can be recreated better then the originals; but the sentiment of the times (tradition) is gone forever. "That" can't be recreated. As a country we are different as is what is happening today as compared to back then and what that music reflects. That was more or less my point.
What is created at anytime is done so for a reason. After that it grows. But you will always have the oldtimer saying "that ain't how we used to do it, you just don't understand."
@ Buzadero "However, I'll offer up the name "Joe Cocker" in this very subjective (yet provocative) mix."
I was wondering when Cocker's name would come up, despite being totally driven by the blues as a young man, he declared that he couldn't be a blues singer because he wasn't "a 65 yr old black man"... well he got one out of two...like Robert Johnson, Little Walter, Elmore James & Magic Sam ;-)
I love Joe Cockers singing style and wanted to mention him. But I was unsure of what original tunes he does. bathroom window is fantastic but a Beatles tune. When i think of my faves, the're covers.
"There are a boatload of cover tunes posted here...and I'm not always certain the poster realizes that they are covers....some are very fine indeed and worth listening to but it is sort of derailing the original thread, or at least diluting it. Here's one off the top of my head: White guy, innovator, original, and blues"- Tomaxe
To which I respond:
"One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different than that from which it is torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest." T.S. Eliot :)
A lot of blues songs are patched together from ideas and bits and pieces of older songs. Before Nirvana sang 'In the Pines' The Four Pennies had reached the charts with it, and they'd based their version on Lead Belly's version. He got it from someone else. In other threads Adam's talked about the difference between covering a song exactly the way the 'original' was played or making it your own. I'm a huge Beatles fan, but I'd rather listen to Joe Cocker singing 'With a Little Help from my Friends' than the Beatles version. Which actually...
(Okay, that one's actually not one of my favorites.)
I'm punching out of this discussion. If I missed the point, so be it. I was offering what I'd observed and was questioning my own bias. I took things at face value, I suppose. After reading the "white blues" article, I've remembered why I'm not a social scientist. ---------- 12gagedan's YouTube Channel
Yes! You make excellent points about the nature of borrowing in the blues, and your examples of Cobain and Cocker are awesome, super-re-interpretations of a song written by others, but I was following the original post's instructions more closely—perhaps too closely, for better or worse: "orignals preferred". You would certainly have to include quite a bit of Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis if you make the criteria to include cover songs. An original lyric counts for something—the Tom Waits example was a good one. And "Jumping at Shadows" by Fleetwood Mac—that's a very good lyric, and an interesting chord progression. You're onto something with The Beatles. Just my opinion. Here's another submission—original:
A prominent African American artist has said that he's afraid that in 10 years or so most people will think 1973 Rock music is Blues. Based on this thread, I don't think it is going to take ten years. It's already happened.
"A prominent African American artist has said that he's afraid that in 10 years or so most people will think 1973 Rock music is Blues. Based on this thread, I don't think it is going to take ten years. It's already happened." Joe L
Genres always broaden the farther away you get from them. When I was a kid I could have told you all the different varieties of hair bands and argued there were real differences in who listened to what. (Rockers, metal heads, grunge, posers...) The farther away from it you get the easier it is to lump things together. Sonic differences that seem make or break just aren't as big as you really thought they were compared to what came next. If someone says they want to listen to classical, they'll get an orchestra. Blues, folk, rockabilly, honky-tonk, bluegrass, as long as it's not auto-tuned electronica, it will get lumped together. That's alright, because hopefully that means we'll listen to the good stuff from each genre instead of sticking to the junk in our own little corner of the world. ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
Adam Pritchard: "Here's my white blues hero - I love the fact that he just goes to another place when he plays. Genius!"
Sure. I rolled my eyes while waiting for my phone to load the video(s). This topic feels a lot like another festering mess akin to the tea party and the deficit. I started to weigh in yesterday but avoided it. I figured Adam was bored. Then the video loaded. Sean Costello. I know Seans music well. I also know blues. I play it on my Victrola. 2000+ 78's I started collecting in 1976. I've seriously studied blues since then. -I only say this to suggest some qualifications for this: Sean was chosen. He's in a category by himself.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2011 12:07 PM
True story: A few years ago, I was at a Buddy Guy concert standing near this really drunk, sort of obnoxious, big white guy who kept babbling about the blues, the integrity of the blues, the authenticity of the blues, the soul of the blues, etc. etc. Finally he said he was the lead guitar player for a local blues artist and was really into Buddy Guy, had studied BG's playing intensely for a long time and considered BG to be a major influence on his own playing. So, getting tired of just listening to him babble, I asked him what BG album was his favorite. He blithely stated that he liked every one of them and that his BG album collection "goes all the way back to DAMN RIGHT I'VE GOT THE BLUES." I just nodded.
@Littoral: I wasn't bored, I was inspired. I'm working up a version of "Southbound" for my next album, and it's a song I've always loved--as I've loved that whole album, BROTHERS AND SISTERS. I went back to the original and took a fresh listen, now that I'm almost three times as old as the 17-year old kid who first fell in love with the song. It still strikes me as as fresh and original as it did then, and THAT strikes me as remarkable, since so much music from the 70s sounds dated. I've spent a lot of time listening to blues singers and blues guitar players over the years, and Greg Allman and Dicky Betts strike me as woefully underappreciated by blues aficionados--if not, obviously, by fans of classic rock.
My usual way is to overdo my assertions for polemical effect--i.e., to create a conversation--although my academic training simultaneously inclines me not to generalize beyond my ability to marshall evidence. I'm not interested in attitudinizing; I'm interested in spreading knowledge but also willing to learn something new.
I'm an advisor on a Sean Costello documentary project. I recently learned a) that he came from an upper-middle-class family and b) suffered from severe bipolar disorder. His family helped support him while he played the blues--as Susan Tedeschi's family, I gather, helped her. I don't believe that the quality of a blues musician's music can be reduced to that musician's class location. Bonnie Raitt was the daughter of Broadway actors and she went to Harvard (well, Radcliffe). At her best, she's as brilliant a blues singer as anybody out there, or at least that's my feeling.
As for Costello: I love the guitar playing in that video; I like the singing but don't love it. I prefer Gregg Allman, Sugar Ray Norcia, Tab Benoit.
BTW, here's one of the greatest white blues singers of all time. He's blind. I don't know if that makes any difference. Please listen all the way through, to the very last note. If this isn't blues and doesn't tug at your heartstrings, you need to have that pulse checked:
Here's one from way below the radar. Contemporary Toronto blues singer/barrel-house pianist, Julian Fauth. He writes original material with a vintage sound. Here he is all by himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUseShrOd4U
Maybe not THE greatest, but he's got it right.
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Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2011 12:29 PM
Adam's Ronnie Millsap clip reminded me of this...Sam Phillips' favorite singer of all he recorded. If you like this, check out "Don't Leave No Headstone on My Grave":
Add me to the Susan Tedeschi list, there's a bunch of her stuff I like, how bout this one (doesn't quite fit Adam's "original" criteria, but definitely one that she's made her own):
Susan Tedeschi and Derek Trucks....marriage made in blues heaven.
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2011 1:57 PM
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 11:37 AM
