Alright so i'm trying to jam along with a song and of course the first question is well what key is it in. Now my ears ain't that good, but rather just come on here and ask for help right away, I figure i'll use the internet and try and find out the answer myself.
After a little bit of work the answer comes back G minor. So what does the minor part mean? Do I still use a C harp, to play this tune in second position?
Still not wanting to exploit the good nature and knowledge of the collective musical excellence that is the MBH forum, I try to dig the answer up myself. Big mistake. bright versus sad sounding...something about intervals, now my heads really spinning....all I'm learning is how much I DON'T know about music theory.
So now i'm asking..when the answer comes back "it's in this major or minor key" what is the implication for what harp you pick up to play in second position?
In English if possible, and dumbed down enough so as to make Music Theory for Dummies look like Beethoven's brain.
Have mercy.
I've never had this much trouble with any freakin subject in my life as I do with music, and it's killing me.....BECAUSE I FREAKIN LOVE MUSIC!!!.....though it's apparently not loving me back.
Second position is based on the key, regardless of minor or major, so yes, a C harp would be 2nd position over G, minor or major. Try 2nd out first, then give 3rd a whirl.
If the results sound good, well..then it IS good! ---------- Todd L. Greene
Tommy: i can only hope i live long enough or somebody taps me on the shoulder with a musical genius wand, so that the dorian, xylodoxian and mylofarkian modes mean something to me. then again knowing the generosity and brillaince that is the Mooncat, I'm gonna have a look at those videos, maybe something will go off in my head........well, other than the voices.
If a tune is in G minor, certain notes are flattened by a half step (compared to G major): the third (always), seventh (almost always) and sixth (most of the time). If you've been playing blues in second position, you're used to flattening the third (i.e, draw 3) a bit; you'll need to pull it down a bit further and not let it up. Watch out for the middle octave: there are a couple of notes you don't want and one of the ones you do want requires an overblow on the 6 hole.
You can also try playing it on F (third position), Bb (fourth position) or Eb (fifth position) harps.
Ok, "minor" means the 3rd is flat and MUST be played flat. If you play a major third on a minor tune it sounds horrible and I mean REALLY BAD.
There are different kinds of minors. DORIAN MINOR has flat 3d, flat 7th and MAJOR 6th. NATURAL MINOR has flat 3d, flat 7th and FLAT 6th. HARMONIC MINOR has flat 3d, flat 6th MAJOR 7th. There are also other kinds of minors but these are the most common.
For DORIAN MINOR use THIRD POSITION (C Dorian minor = Bb harp). Third position gives you the Dorian minor scale without having to bend. You can also play Dorian in FIFTH POSITION by bending D4 for major 6th and avoiding B4,and B9 which are flat 6th.
For NATURAL MINOR use FOURTH POSITION (C natural minor = Eb harp) or FIFTH POSITION (C natural minor = Ab harp). Both give you the Natural minor scale with mostly no bends. In Fourth position you must bend D3 a whole step to get root in the lower register, but if you don't go that far down the harp, there's no bends. Fifth Position gives you a flat 2d at D3 and D9 which is an avoid note. You can get major 2d by bending 3D and B9 a half step. But the 2d is NOT usually an important note for blues, so you may not need that note. Easy formula for playing natural minor in Fifth Position: Avoid D5 and D9, don't bend anything except D3 and don't bend D3 more than a whole step. In Fifth position D3 is the 5th and you bend it a whole step to get the 4th and a half step to get the flat 5th.
HARMONIC MINOR doesn't get called that often but is playable in FOURTH POSITION by bending D6 a half step and D3 a step and a half to get major 7th. You can really wail playing harmonic minor in Fourth position.
You CANNOT bend randomly when you are playing minor in these positions or you will be taken out of key. It is possible to play minor in second position but it's really tough to hit the draw 3 half step bend with consistent accuracy and absolute precision every single time you play it, even in passing, which is what is required if you are playing minor. Third, Fourth and Fifth Positions give you the minor third without having to bend and Fourth and Fifth Positions also give you the minor 6th (needed for natural minor) without having to bend. This is why these positions make it easy to play in minor keys without sounding bad.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2011 2:16 PM
Although I now (after struggling with it for a few years) have a decent grip on music theory (including major vs minor), I am clipping hvyj's post and saving it on my computer (and probably printing it later too) because it's the most concise "cheat sheet" for playing in the different minor modes on harmonica that I've ever come across. Thanks hvyj for posting that!
If you are interested in how these positions relate to modes, the following modes can be played in the following positions somewhere on the harp WITHOUT HAVING TO BEND:
THIRD POSITION = DORIAN MODE FOURTH POSITION = AEOLEAN MODE FIFTH POSITION = PHRYGIAN MODE
I find modes to be a useful way to select which position to play in. I try to select a position that gives me a mode that provides most of the notes i need in order to play a particular tune, and then I bend for the rest (i don't OB) and pray i am smart enough to lay out on any passages i just can't get on that harp. Sometimes, i may use 2 harps (like, for example on "Riders on the Storm" or "So What".)
Now, when a minor key gets called, i always ask what kind of minor , Dorian or Natural? (Harmonic is rare enough that a musician calling a harmonic minor will almost always call it as such). Depending on the answer, i chose my harp.
Now, depending on the level of musical sophistication of the player who called the key, my question might get a response like "HUH??" If so, i ask if the tune has a major 6th or a minor 6th. If the answer is "I DUNNNO" I'll ask well, is the IV chord major or minor? Most guitar players can answer that. (MAJOR 6TH or MAJOR IV CHORD = Dorian; MINOR 6TH or MINOR IV CHORD = NATURAL). Then i pick my harp accordingly.
Occasionally a tune will modulate between Dorian minor and Natural minor (like, for example, "Chitlins Con Carne"). For those, i use Fifth Position and bend D4 to get major the 6th, and play B4 for the flat 6th.
I do quite a bit of playing in minor keys.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2011 2:46 PM
To put it in the simplest terms possible, its a bit harder to play with a standard harp when its in minor, as has been stated the three draw has to be pulled down a half step and some of the chords won't sound right. The easy way out is to have a go at Lee Oskar minor harps. Just be aware that they are labeled in their second position; ie; use an A minor in A minor for second position. ---------- Lucky Lester
@didjcripey: I disagree. No need to buy minor harps unless you want more minor chords. No need to bend for the minor third if you are playing a Richter tuned harp in third, fourth or fifth positions. I've never used a minor harp to play a minor key tune. No need to.
Tommy: i can only hope i live long enough or somebody taps me on the shoulder with a musical genius wand, so that the dorian, xylodoxian and mylofarkian modes mean something to me. then again knowing the generosity and brillaince that is the Mooncat, I'm gonna have a look at those videos, maybe something will go off in my head........well, other than the voices.
I hear ya....I feel the same. "BUT" the videos show what holes to blow that sound good and that is all I need to know and was pointing to. I may not know what scale it is or what it all means but at least I can find notes that will go with a minor song. That was my point with the clips....show me the holes...lol.
The easiest way to explain is to look at a piano. The key of C major uses the same notes as the A minor scale does but they start in different places. Since the key of C has no sharps or flats it's all white keys on the piano. C is the note to the left of the two black keys. If you play up using just white keys from one C to another you've just played a C major scale. If you start on the A instead (the A is the right hand of the two keys in the middle of the group of three black keys.) If you start on A and play up, using just the white keys, to the next A you've just played a A minor scale.
Why? Each key on the piano, white or black, is a 1/2 step above the one to it's left. There is a pattern of 1/2 and whole steps for major keys and another pattern for minor keys. One of those patterns is the pattern you get from playing just the white keys.
Fortunately, you don't need to memorize it to use it. Just print up a Circle of Fifths! (I learned the circle way back in high school and it didn't make any sense to me then. Then I stopped doing much with music. 20 years later, playing harp, I started to get little eureka moments where it started to make sense.) It's all about patterns of half and whole steps- keys, key signatures, major keys, minor keys, modes, scales- all of it. Unfortunately the harmonica isn't a great instrument for visualizing that, at least compared to pianos.
The major keys are around the outside in red. Their relative minors are around the inside in green. Handy dandy, the circle also tells you what key you need for cross harp (just go one step counter clockwise). You can count out all the other positions that way two by counting how many steps counter clockwise you've gone from the harps 1st position. Because of that whole relativity thing you can, like hvyj says, just switch positions to play different minor scales, without worrying about bending.
Just count around the circle for the position you want to play in and start on that note instead. If you want to get fancy, like Jason does in his video, you can play in other positions but you have to bend specific notes to make it fit that pattern.
-hvyj, I've got one minor harp and I love it. The chords are beautiful. The funny thing I notice though is that if I just pick it up and play one note cleanly without any other notes it still sounds minor. I don't know why. I realize that one note by itself could be major or minor. I don't know if I'm unconsciously listening for a note that I expect for the hole I'm playing or if there are overtones that I'm hearing from other reeds' sympathetic vibrations. Maybe I'll do a double blind test and see if it's all in my head. I like the easy minor chords but I can definitely see the advantage of not having to carry around a set of minor keys too. :)
A good example of a G minor song played in second position on a C harp is Fever from Back In The Game by Satan & Adam. The most important thing to remember when using a C harp in 2nd on a G minor song is to never play the 3 draw unbent.
Martin ---------- Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Isaac Asimov
One of the main problems I encounter with people learning music theory is they do not take the time to memorize these rudiments: 1. The names of the notes in the western chromatic scale aka the notes on the keyboard. Know the enharmonics, for example C# is also called Db.
2. The twelve major scales. These are the do re mi fa so la ti do scales. When I say memorize, I do not just mean knowing that the D major scale is D E F# G A B C# D. I mean knowing that F# is the third note in the key of D major. 3. The Circle of fifths clockwise and counterclockwise, i.e. the red letters in nacoran's post. 4. The location of all the notes on the C diatonic harmonica.
Until you memorize these 4 things, learning theory is always a challenge because every step in the ladder towards understanding a theory concept has to be preceded by a review of these 4 things and how they apply to the the problem at hand. By the time you have reviewed them the problem at hand is often forgotten.
One of the things I often experience with students is having to remind them what the original question was because it takes a half an hour to review the four rudiments.
In this situation:
Rudiments: Major scales and the western chromatic scale: Minor scales are major scales altered slightly by lowering certain notes by one keyboard note,aka one half step.
Application: There are many minor scales. I use 6 on a regular basis. They all have one thing in common. They all take the third note from the tonic's major scale and lower it one keyboard note aka one half step. Let's say you wanted to play in D minor. The D major scale is D E F# G A B C# D. The third note is F#. The western chromatic scale is C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C. One half step lower than F# is F. Therefore, the D minor scales all take the F# and lower it to F.
Even though there are many minor scales and there is theory that will explain the most appropriate minor scale for the chord progression the rhythm players are playing, most people do not know the theory.
Therefore most people learn one way of playing minor and play that scale no matter which progression is being played. Because we have listened to so many recordings and live performances of people playing a minor scale that is not necessarily the most appropriate scale for the progression, our ears have become very forgiving. It has come to the point where people will almost always forgive every note except for the third note from the tonic's major scale.
Therefore, while in D minor, always play F, never play F#.
Rudiment: The circle of fifths.
Then if you want to play cross harp you have to find the harp that will play in the key of D in cross harp. If you know your circle of fifths you know that you can put your finger on the key note, D, and move counterclockwise one time to find the key that will play cross harp.
Application: D moves counterclockwise to G. Use a G harmonica to play cross harp in D.
Rudiments: This next application problem contains all four rudiments.
Application: Then you need to find where the F# notes are on a G harp and avoid them and where the F notes are and focus on them. If you know your C harp layout, you can find the cross harp key on the C harmonica and find the third note from that major scale and the note that you get when you lower that note one half step. The same harp holes on the G harp will contain F# and F, respectively.
To find the cross harp key on the C harmonica, go to the Circle of Fifths. Put your finger on C and move clockwise one time. G is the cross harp key on a C harp.
To find the third note in the G major scale, recall your memorized G major scale: G A B C D E F# G. The third note is B. To lower it one half step, recall the chromatic western scale: C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C. Find the B note and lower it one half step. The flatted third note is B.
To find the B note on your C harp, recall your memorized C harp layout. B is in 3 draw, 7 draw and 10 blow single bend. Since you want to avoid this note on a C harp to play in G minor, avoid the same holes on a G harp, which contain the F# note, to play in D minor.
To find the Bb on your C harp, recall your memorized C harp layout. 3 single bend, 6 overblow and 10 blow double bend are Bb on a C harp. Focus on these notes on your G harp to find the F note and therefore play in D minor.
As difficult as this explanation might be at your level, the process would be leagues more difficult if you had to relearn the four rudiments. It may seem like the four rudiments is a lot of memorization, but remember, once they're there, they stay there (hopefully) and they will open up most doors of music theory.
My Meat and Potatoes Harmonica Lessons on Youtube are devoted towards understanding these rudiments.
OK, Honkin, you ask for the simplest possible answer, and, as usual, the responses are variations on the Encyclopedia Brittanica (and I'm saying nothing about whether they are factual or relevant). Here's an answer which I think is pitched (pun unintended) at the right level.
You have a C harp, second position is G, whether it's G major, G minor or a blues in G. The difference is fundamentally whether you bend the 3-draw or not and if so, how far you bend it.
If you don't bend it (except by a full tone to get an A), that's G major. e.g. the American national anthem starting on the 4-draw would be in G major. G is the tonic note (the one that sets the tone or the pitch of the piece). Most pieces of music tend to end on the tonic note, but your ear should tell you which note it is before the piece has ended. So if you cover the first 4 holes and draw, you get a G major chord.
G to B is (one example of) a "major third", which equals 4 semitones.
G to Bb is a "minor third", which equals 3 semitones. If you always bend the 3-draw down a full semitone (and two semitones for the A) and never play it unbent, you're playing in G minor, but you can't get a chord any longer. For example the song Feelings, which would begin on the 4-draw and be in G minor. This minor third is the main way to recognise that something is in a minor key. You can save scales for another time and play by ear for the time being.
If you bend the 3-draw down, but not a full semi-tone, that's a blues in G. You can still play that G major chord to accompany a blues in G, but you'd never play it to accompany G minor.
You've been playing in 2nd position all the time because the G, the 2-draw has been your tonic note all the time. If you learn to play Feelings, and the American National Anthem (or Happy Birthday To You starting on the 1-draw, if you think that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel), and a blues of your choice, all will be clear.
(Footnote for the fussy: I'm keeping it simple. I'm aware that there are possibly some chordal modulations in Feelings which go into G major, but that's just because it's a modern piece of music. If that's a problem for you, then you'll just have to find your own piece of music in a minor key which doesn't modulate. In classical music, a minor key would be far less likely ever to modulate into a major key, but I'm guessing that there will be exceptions) ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2011 3:38 AM
Since you mention second position, I will assume this is your most familiar reference point at this stage of your evolution.
To play in a minor key, you must spend the time learning the three hole inhale first bend - first to get the sound of the pitch into your inner ear and second to work on the technique required to create this note as a solid entity. If you approach it as a NOTE and not some slippery bend sound, you will be closer to OWNING this one.
For instance, take a LOW G harmonica and a D harmonica. On the LOW G, play 4 hole inhale and then 5 hole inhale. Listen to the sound of that 5 hole inhale. It is a "given" note here *not created through a bending technique*. Now take the D harmonica and play 2 hole inhale and go for the 3 hole inhale first bend. The sound should be THE SAME as the two notes played on the LOW G. Switch back and forth between the two until you get a firm grasp on the sound of that "Flatted third" note. ---------- The Iceman
Hey Andrew thanks. The encyclopedia remark was hilarious. Thanks for giving a thought to all aspects of my question.
I wasn't really bothered by the answers that were way over my head (well frustrated yes, that, I haven't put enough work in to fully understand them). I consider the breath and depth of the answers that are provided here on any given question amazing, and a HUGE strength of this forum.
I mean look what happened here, within 10 minutes, my man toddgreene (who seems like a helluva good guy, even though i've never even met the man) weighed in with just enough. basically, "yeah you're ok with a C harp on that. Give 'er a go, have fun". Perfect!!! Tommy came in with some Bronxian mojo and showed me three Mooncat vids that are cool. hvyj provided some guidance that got my head spinning again, BUT, apparently was such a concise and elegant way of summarizing playing in minor modes on harmonica, that another MBH member is going to print out his response and tack it to a wall. nac gave me the circle of fifths....just looking at that diagram gives me the shivers. Michael Rubin offered a long, well thought out explanation of what things I should have committed to memory, including that damn circle of fifths again (arg!)....and made me feel shame. And finally you expanded a little on todd's answer, which was way cool, and most of which I grasped.
Now on what other forum could you get that many thoughtful answers in a few hours?
I look at this way, I got the short, Theory for Dummies answer that I asked for almost right away. and then several guys gave me shit to think about if I want to try and understand more thoroughly or deeply. Their losing me in their explanations is more a me problem, i get that.
The MBH forum ROCKS!!!!!
Thanks lads!!
Edited to add: Hadn't read Icemans response as I wrote the above, thanks Ice.
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2011 6:21 AM
@Honkin On Bobo: "i can only hope i live long enough or somebody taps me on the shoulder with a musical genius wand, so that the dorian, xylodoxian and mylofarkian modes mean something to me."
Mode names are just shorthand for scale patterns where the half steps are in different places in that scale's progression of notes. I have no formal music training. But, I've had the good fortune to play with some really good musicians over the years and I just picked this stuff up from them. Don't let the Greek names confuse you. This stuff is NOT actually very hard to understand.
Bobo: Just to be clear, I only want you to learn the red notes on the circle of fifths diagram in nacoran's post.
I am glad I accomplished my goal in shaming you. Just kidding, it is not about shame, it is about getting you to buy in on learning those four things and having you reap the benefits.
To Honkin On Bobo: I'd really like to be able to explain this stuff better and I tried to make my explanation as clear and jargon-free as possible. Can you tell me where I lost you?
You did shame me, I mean that both light heartedly and with a note of seriouness (if that makes any sense).
You see, I've been well aware of your meat and potatoes YT page for while, and I even studied a few of your lessons, I had the c harp layout memorized, since forgotten. They are EXCELLENT. The shame comes in me realizing I should have stayed with them.
I'm an old cat (maybe dog is the better metaphor) trying to learn how to play harp/music fairly late in life. I constantly struggle with the question of how to keep it fun and yet get better (ie practicing and learning theory vs just wailing away). On this very forum there are people who take an approach from either end "and all points in between". waltertore's philsosphy is let your soul shine, it's all good. Others are more pedantic.
I'd call myself a semi-serious hobbyist who's probably an advanced beginner on Adam's scale. I've totally bought into the value of learning those four things you outlined. The discipline to get there, ah that's another story. But that's a me problem..I know it.
The stuff you and Adam and others have put out there on the internet...let's just say your accounts in the Bank of Karma are HUGE.
Actually, I followed most of your explanation. I'm not familiar with playing in positions other than first and second. I don't overblow, and in fact, I still don't even get all the draw bends in second position reliably. So i wouldn't say that you lost me per se.
In any case, THANK YOU for the offer of trying to make it clearer......it was truly appreciated.
most 12 bar blues is major chords and blues scale is minor scale with a flat 5 in it...so you can play blues scale in major or minor changes it don`t matter.blues isn`t european theory based music.thats why you can mix minor with major chords...
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2011 8:10 AM
Here you go Honkin, I took out the theory stuff and left you with a more basic Circle. To figure out the crossharp key just find the key of the song in red and go one step around the circle counterclockwise, still in the red, and that will be it.
#=Sharp b=Flat
For a quick example, lets start with G. If you pick up a G harp and play in G that's first position. If you play in second position you'll need a C harp. For 3rd position you'd use a F harp, and so on, all the way around.
Now, if someone tells you a song is in G minor you look for G minor in the circle (green), then look outside, that will be Bb Major(red). That's the relative minor. There are other minor scales but that's the easiest one to play.
There are other charts that will show you the same information but if you slowly get used to the circle it's more useful when you decide you've mastered that and want to learn some more.
The only thing still crazy about the circle now is that Gb and F# are the same note. Don't worry about that. They just are. Eb and Db are the same as each other too. Micheal mentioned it in his post.
(It's actually designed that way to make things simpler, each key needs to have every letter and sometimes they have to shoehorn things in to make it fit, but don't worry about that for now.)
Tuckster, minor will always sound sort of melancholy, but you can do some neat stuff to play with that. I was in a songwriters' circle. Each month we had a different assignment. One month we had to write a happy song in a minor key. They turned out really nice. They still sounded melancholy but they way the lyrics played with that was great. You can do the opposite and play a depressing lyric in a Major key. It usually ends up sounding pretty creepy. Sublime-Santeria is a good example of that.
"Theory aside, I think of Minor as feeling sad or melancholy, Is this always the case or can it have another "feel'?"
A lot of funk and reggae is played in minor keys and manages to avoid the melancholy. Admittedly funk sometimes doesn't involve too many changes, but I think the lesson here is: don't understimate the power of the groove.
