groyster1
1058 posts
May 23, 2011
7:10 PM
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rockinron now have replacement reeds and also wood combs for special 20s has anyone tried changing the sp20 comb to wood?is there an improvement in the tone???
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jim
827 posts
May 24, 2011
7:37 AM
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sp20's have "recessed" reedplates. That means that fitting them on a sandwich-type comb is a problem. They don't have those grooves for coverplates.
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groyster1
1059 posts
May 24, 2011
7:41 AM
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thanks for the warning
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stones
50 posts
May 24, 2011
7:41 AM
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I've been thinking the same thing. I took one of my sp20's apart to see. they are recessed but if the new combs are made with the recess then all is good....right! but the tone is the big deciding factor for me.. is it worth it? does it really change the tone?
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jim
828 posts
May 24, 2011
7:48 AM
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theoretically it improves the airtightness - so the volume should increase a bit.
On the other hand, you go from 6 screws to 3...
And you will have big time problems with comfort unless you make that groove at the front.
I don't really see any point in trying to make a good instrument from a sp20...
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HarpNinja
1437 posts
May 24, 2011
7:59 AM
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You will probably lose air from the lack of a groove. I haven't found much benefit to replacement SP20 combs. I also don't think opening the backs is a big deal.
If I were to play OOTB harps and I couldn't get Crossovers, I'd get SP20's.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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chromaticblues
854 posts
May 24, 2011
8:14 AM
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It works perfectly fine. The groove? I thouhgt the groove was just to cut your lipps? I haven't had any air loss issues with any yet. Well I've only made a couple dozen so maybe someone else has had a hard time with air loss. I don't know. They are actually very comfortable because of not have the the lipp ripper. I mean groove. I just sand the front of each reedplate with 600 grit to round it off a little and seems very comfortable. The combs I have seem to give the SP 20's a different tone. I also do open the backs up and seems to project better while retaining the SP 20 sound.
Yes groyster it is a very good setup! I have had good luck with them anyway!
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jim
829 posts
May 24, 2011
8:17 AM
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I'd say:
If you don't use overbends - play it as it is.
If you do need overbends - get a normal instrument like 1847s or MB deluxe/GM with custom combs.
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chromaticblues
855 posts
May 24, 2011
8:32 AM
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Jim I'd say you don't know what your talking about!
Have you made any of the above mention harps? Have you had any feedback from customers that you made them for? If the answer is no. Then you don't know what your talking about. If you have and the results have not been favorable. Well don't worry I'll take care anyone that likes SP 20's and would like a wooden comb! I do make them, like them and have numerous people say they like them also.
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HarpNinja
1438 posts
May 24, 2011
8:34 AM
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I don't think the groove causes ripping. I think sometimes the exposed reed plate could, but the groove is filled with the cover plate and not responsible for discomfort. The stock comb only exaggerates that to an extent.
If you hold up a Sp20 with a replacement comb up to a light, you can see the gap and visible light from the cover plate not sitting in a groove. You can do things to stop this from happening, but that requires further modification (which may be a big deal or not). Groove or not, the reed plate will be exposed to an extent, FWIW.
If you want open cover plates, are fine with exposed reed plates, and are desiring wood combs, I'd just get a Marine Band of some type.
Add the cost up of a Sp20 and replacement comb and you could get a MBD or Crossover and not have to worry about any of this.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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chromaticblues
856 posts
May 24, 2011
9:24 AM
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HarpNinja Its not the groove, but could be the extended reedplate. Well yeah its the extended reedplate. At the ends of the extended reedplates where the coverplates sit in there are always sharp edges. I've made about 50 custom Marine Bands and always sand the groove down because its sharp! I can't even believe we are debating wheather or not MB reedplates are sharp. I thought everyone knew they were. FWIW
OK enough of that.
I buy custom made wooden combs that are made for SP 20's. They are not the stock size. They are custom made for my application. The SP 20 covers fit perfectly and the MB's require a little work. Thats why I call them custom. Because people can't buy harps exactly like I make them anywhere else! I'm a little beyond light peeking through and whatever. I'm a little more concerned with making them 100% air tight. I use SP 20 reedplates because I don't like the tone of MBD or crossovers. I believe some people can tell the difference. And for those that can't I'm here to help them make the correct choices.
@groyster HarpNinja is right as far as stock crossover $$ compared to SP 20 with a new wooden comb $$. For anyone that just wants to buy a harp and play. The crossover is the best stock harp going. I think it sounds bright and I can't use it, but thats just me. Not everyone will share my opinion and I don't expect them to! For making custom harps the new SP 20's are GREAT! For people that like wooden combed harps (like myself). They now can be made that way!
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HarpNinja
1439 posts
May 24, 2011
9:29 AM
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"I can't even believe we are debating wheather or not MB reedplates are sharp."
We aren't debating anything. You said the groove was a lip ripper and that is misinformation. The reed plate can be a lip ripper, but the groove has nothing to do with that. As previously stated, the lack of a groove can have a negative impact on how airtight the harp is without further modification of the cover plates.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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chromaticblues
858 posts
May 24, 2011
9:34 AM
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HarpNinja the groove is what creates the sharp edges. Thats what I'm saying. Its really difficult to get it smooth also. I wish it wasn't I like MB's. Just so much stuff to do to get them comfortable. Thats the reason I experimented with this and I have to say have had great results!
Last Edited by on May 24, 2011 9:35 AM
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jim
830 posts
May 24, 2011
9:51 AM
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MB deluxe
+
one of these combs
=
a perfect hohner
Last Edited by on May 24, 2011 9:52 AM
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nacoran
4143 posts
May 24, 2011
9:58 AM
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The groove, for most of it's length, isn't the problem on protruding reed harps. It can be part of the problem on the very ends though. It's like the difference between being cut by regular knife and a serrated knife.
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Nate
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chromaticblues
859 posts
May 24, 2011
10:12 AM
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Yeah Nacoran thats what I'm talking about. It's the ends that are very sharp on some. I have a C harp that I swear I've sanded it three times. Do the edges grow back or somethiing?
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groyster1
1060 posts
May 24, 2011
10:37 AM
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a special 20 with a nice walnut comb would make for a pretty harp;however,if it does not lead to a significant improvement in tone I just would not want to do it
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shbamac
122 posts
May 24, 2011
10:42 AM
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I've used several types of wood combs on SP20s. Not a significant improvement in tone but they do sound a little better to my ear.
Last Edited by on May 24, 2011 10:43 AM
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MP
1673 posts
May 24, 2011
11:03 AM
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if ron is selling Hetrick combs they are drilled for 8 screws. modern SP/20s have 8 holes but only 6 screws oob. the two extra holes aren't tapped by the way.
i think the edges grow back:)
two of my very fav SPs have Maple combs. i did one and chro did the other.
george, these replacements may or may not pose problems if you do it youself. sometimes the cover plates aren't flush and need to be bent a bit. the built-in mouthpiece you are used to vanishes. if you don't like working on stuff don't do it.
i don't notice a significant tonal change. stock SP combs are just fine. i just like the look of wood.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on May 24, 2011 11:06 AM
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Todd Parrott
502 posts
May 24, 2011
12:03 PM
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I have a couple of Special 20's on custom combs from Randy Sandoval that were basically quick set-ups he did for me at SPAH, and they are some of my favorite harps. Judging by how well these play with only some light work, I would think that Special 20's can make pretty good custom harps.
As for the "groove" thing, here's a link to Chris Reynolds' site with pictures, that shows how he replaces the combs for Special 20's and Lee Oskars:
Special 20 Comb Replacement
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jim
831 posts
May 24, 2011
1:03 PM
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...and say good-bye to opening them for cleaning.
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jimjam
32 posts
May 24, 2011
1:14 PM
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I have a Special 20 from Chromaticblues and it is currently the best harp I own. It's loud, rich tone, all OB/OD pop right out and chord bending is a breeze - I also LOVE the tuning. I didn't think I would like SP20 best, but it beats everything I've tried so far. It's even beastier than my custom Manji (former king of the hill)
Now if Todd will let me valet that Blue-comb B-Rad from Spiers I'll be happy to write a showdown story.
And Jim, I have not played a Custom OB Seydel, yet.
@Groyster, go for it, maybe through chromatic blues?
(there's my sharp 3 cents)
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"If you want to hide, find a stage."
~John Popper
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REM
72 posts
May 24, 2011
1:18 PM
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I don't understand what your talking about Jim. There's no reason you couldn't open up the harp to clean it. Even with Chris Reynold's method of using some tape on the edge of the coverplate, all you need to do is take it apart and remove the tape, clean the harp, put some new tape on, and then put it all back together. Not a big deal. In fact, if you don't need to clean the inside of the coverplates, you probably don't even need to take off and replace the tape.
Your comment doesn't make any sense.
Last Edited by on May 24, 2011 1:23 PM
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Blowyourbrassoff
21 posts
May 24, 2011
3:31 PM
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Yeah it's totally ridiculous, there's nothing to prevent you from taking them apart and cleaning them. I do it to mine all the time. And they overblow and overdraw just fine.
Chris
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groyster1
1062 posts
May 24, 2011
3:53 PM
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@jimjam
yes chromatic would be first choice re:special 20 hot rod
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Seven.Oh.Three.
69 posts
May 24, 2011
4:22 PM
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Anybody have pictures of one of these hot rod special 20's? I've got a neglected special 20 sitting on my shelf. I bought it as my first harp before making the switch to MB's due to prefering the appearance of wood combs. It would be good to get it back in the rotation. Also would be neat to compare it to my MB, Crossover and blues harp MS all in the same key.
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blueswannabe
105 posts
May 24, 2011
4:29 PM
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I bought a bamboo comb for my special 20. The stock plastic comb of a special 20 fits better and feels better. The bamboo comb to my ears made no difference in tone. In my opinion on the issue of tone only...I do not see the need to replace the plastic comb.
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Rubes
323 posts
May 24, 2011
4:50 PM
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I have to add a few cents....... I have replaced a stock comb on a new SP20 with a dymonwood comb from Hetrick, very lightly embossed the reeds, opened the plates,and it's a DEMON harp now guys!! :~) Go for it Groyster!
Last Edited by on May 24, 2011 4:52 PM
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groyster1
1063 posts
May 24, 2011
5:30 PM
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look at todds sp20 comb replacement it takes some skill and as my dad said "dont be messin` with something you know nothing about,boy"
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Hawmonica
1 post
May 24, 2011
9:08 PM
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I did a harp clinic for about 10 beginners/to intermediate. I had a student play a stock special 20 for a few minutes, then I quickly changed the comb to bamboo. He played the harp again and everyone's eyes lit up and mouths dropped. There is a significant change in tone. It is also performance. Plastic sp20 combs are thin, have plastic blocking the air holes. A solid, sealed comb of any material is going to improve the performance and amount of power you get with the harp. Richard Sleigh has switched all of his Marine Band's to using exclusively our bamboo combs, unless the customer asks for something else. I trust that he knows what he is doing.
Joe Filikso and Brad Harrison have been using Dymondwood, of which we also carry, for the last 10 years. The B-Radical comb is Dymondwood. I consider those three the tops in the custom harp biz. Not dissing Joe Spiers and others as well.
Here is a page of videos (not high quality) showing how to install Sp20 combs, and get cover plates opened and flushed.
Free Learning Resources http://www.harpcase.com/id77.html
I strongly recommend getting the 3 inch hand seamer tool shown in the video. 8 bucks at www.harborfreight.com
Matthew
Hetrick Harmonica
www.harmonicacombs.com
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chromaticblues
860 posts
May 25, 2011
5:01 AM
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Thank You Hawmonica! Yes there is a difference if the wood is not finnished. Oooh Aaah! That is the key. You see when your comparing stuff. You need to know what your comparing. Anyone that has had any experience with Statistical Process Control knows that the Data isn't the most important aspect of learning, but knowing how to read the Data as an educational tool.
So how cares right!
Bamboo doesn't have to be finnished! I finnish the outside mouthpiece part for comfort which doen't affect tone, but the inside is not finnished. Why do Marine Bands have that sound they have. Its not just the coverplates! It is also the soft wood comb that is not finnished!
Hetrick Harmonicas make very nice SP 20 combs that are not difficult to install. They are NOT crazy expensive. No gold inlay. Just flat wood with big chambers. No more than what you need and no less!
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stones
51 posts
May 25, 2011
8:12 AM
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Bamboo or dymondwood thats the question.. I've got a handfull of sp20's and mb's at home. personally I like the sp20's over the mb's. I play both though. I would like to change my sp's out to wood combs and have really thought about it for awhile but really could not decide which type of wood to use, bamboo or dymondwood. I've opened up the backs of the covers and it does help with the volume (alittle). I just do not know how much differance a wood comb wood make. is it worth it? would a cross over be better then modifiying a sp or MB.? this all depends on the individual and his or hers own preference. I happend to have alot of these harps laying around and I don't use them all... so I'm doing my part to recycle and throwing a few bucks at a harp that I've already gotten my $'s worth out of makes more sense to me.than dropping a C-note on a harp that I may or may not like. I just don't know which would the better choice in woods to use bamboo or dymondwood??? F-it maybe I'll just get one of each and do my own comparison ? ...now the next question is who is a good source for the combs?
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chromaticblues
862 posts
May 25, 2011
9:20 AM
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@ Stones Hetrick Harmonica makes nice SP 20 combs at a reasonable price.
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MP
1675 posts
May 25, 2011
10:50 AM
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the only problem is getting the plates flush. hetrick can do it for you. me or kevin could do it.
the thing is, i used to work with sheet metal so i know some tricks. even so. hetrick has a vid on getting the plates flush.
as far as tone goes, mine sound great! are they better than stock? i'll let you guys decide that one.
they look cool as hell.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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Todd Parrott
503 posts
May 25, 2011
11:22 AM
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@stones - Bamboo or dymondwood? Makes no difference in the tone really as far as I can tell. With both materials, they're naturally resistant to moisture. In fact, you can even wash a dymondwood comb at the sink and it won't swell. I like the dymondwood for the different colors that are available, but that's all - not because of tone. I think the general consensus is that comb material makes little to no difference in the tone, and I would agree because I've played just about every comb material there is. The differences in tone, if any, are very very subtle.
As for good sources for combs, I would have to recommend Randy Sandoval and Chris Reynolds. Their workmanship is unmatched in my opinion. Chris is a professional machinist, and supplies the combs for Joe Spiers' stage 3 builds and offers all kinds of options and materials.
Reynolds Harmonicas & Combs
Randy specializes in Corian, which is a personal favorite of mine, and creates some funky colors and designs. Both guys are also really good customizers and they understand the importance of comb flatness, not just comb material.
Genesis Harmonicas & Combs
The fact that Joe uses Chris Reynolds' combs alone speaks very highly of Chris' work, as Joe Spiers is the best customizer in the world, period. He even customized a B-radical for me, and Brad was so impressed with it, he kept it for himself! He's also shared information with Richard Sleigh who agreed that Joe has really advanced the instrument and the customizing process. Even the late Chris Michalek (who didn't give compliments easily) placed Joe Spiers right up there with Filisko and raved about how well my Stage 3 Golden Melody played when he tried it at SPAH. Joe has a really scientific approach to his work and builds some unbelievable harps.
Last Edited by on May 25, 2011 11:29 AM
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Hawmonica
4 posts
May 25, 2011
12:32 PM
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Parrot: have you ever actually seen one of our Dymondwood combs? Chris Reynold's work is incredible I agree. He makes the best brass combs out there and that is not our gig so hats off to him. He also offers other materials and woods we don't so kudos there too.
As far as Dymondwood goes, we offer 9 colors and are less than half his price ($22) same if not better quality. We cut them with a CNC, hand sand, and polish with two types of Jeweler's polish. Sure Chris' combs are great but they are $50 or more. Not affordable for most people.
If you want to compare cridentials, Scott Hetrick, our engineer/inventor, has been a machinist and mechanic for 25 years. He has invented 12 different tools (that are being used by companies all over the world) for working on different engines and machinery. Creates all of our products and has several other inventions in the works. He built both of our CNC machines from scratch. Do you know how hard it is to build that type of machine? Let alone plug in the 200 settings to operate one.
It also important to mention that we are not just a comb company. We do everything related to harmonica and try to offer a good product that everyone can afford.
There is a definite tone differnece with Dymondwood and Bamboo. I have done several tests with different players. You are dead wrong there buddy. We are the only producers of bamboo combs (besides Hohner) and we have done countless sound tests.
I have played many custom harps, but never a Spiers so I cannot say. However, I will say that my Filikso harp is in another dimension, it is almost magical. I am skeptical that a Spiers harp, although I'm sure it they are damn good because of his long waiting list, i am skeptical that it beats a Filisko.
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Hawmonica
5 posts
May 25, 2011
12:36 PM
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p.s I'm not getting in a pissing contest with you, but I think it is important to mention ALL the facts.
You can call me an idiot or lambast me on here that's cool. I am not going to post anymore on this subject. I will let our work speak for itself.
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Todd Parrott
504 posts
May 25, 2011
12:55 PM
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A pissing contest? Comparing credentials? Wow dude.... My post wasn't even directed at you, I was simply answering a question about combs based on my experience. I'm sorry if my opinion or a little competition makes you that upset.
I have never called anyone an idiot or lambasted anyone on this forum, or had any issues with anyone here, even before I was a moderator.
Nope, I'm not a machinist or customizer, just a player with a lot of experience and a polite demeanor, which speaks for itself.... so does my playing by the way.
As for your combs, yes, I've seen them. I'm glad you make a product for $22. It's good to have options in the harmonica community, so hats off to you too.
Last Edited by on May 25, 2011 1:20 PM
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Todd Parrott
505 posts
May 25, 2011
1:00 PM
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P.S. - If you are inventing things, how about some custom cover plates? That's what we have all been waiting for, but no one is making them as of yet as far as I know. Would be interesting to see how that affects the tone.
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groyster1
1065 posts
May 25, 2011
2:00 PM
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cant see how todd offended on his posting he has always been very helpful and knowledgeable on this forum-Im glad I started this thread it has been very interesting and informative opinions do vary greatly but I always look at the individuals point of view
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Hawmonica
6 posts
May 25, 2011
3:36 PM
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No offense taken by Todd, sorry if I offended you.
Cover plates are in the future. It is on the list. = )
I have experimented with the heavy brass cover plates of the Hering Vintage 1923 harps. They have great tone (sealed wood comb, extra thick reed plates), but the reeds are too soft and blow out too easy. I have a whole box of the cover plates and can convert them to fit sp20s. The tone is deep I love it. I suppose we will do something like that in the future, but with our name on it. We have actually discussed making our own harmonica, but we haven't decided if we want to deal with stamping out reeds.
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chromaticblues
863 posts
May 25, 2011
3:43 PM
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Waoh! groyster see what you started!
Remember as I have said in the past. Don't let other people do your thinking (make up your mind for you. If someone likes SP 20's (as I know you do) its one of those things that you should just try just to see if YOU like it or not! Thats the most important thing for you. As MP said if you ever buy any combs and it doesn't work out very well. One of us will can help! Ah just go for it!
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Hawmonica
7 posts
May 25, 2011
4:07 PM
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There is a lot of things you can do with existing coverplates. I almost consider this an art form. I have drilled holes in the SP20 cover plates to create vents like the MBs. I have also completely opened the back of GMs and created side vents as well. I also use the hand seamer tool I mentioned to modify marine band cover plates like Filisko does and the new Thunderbird design. Even if it is a C harp, it is cool to make the low end lop sides, creates a louder sound.
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MP
1676 posts
May 25, 2011
5:13 PM
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----yeah george,
look what you did! :) i'd go with maple or bamboo.
it's not like you're replacing a transmission or anything, so never mind me.------
MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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groyster1
1067 posts
May 25, 2011
5:22 PM
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I did replace reedplates on a special 20 Db successfully so at least I can use the screwdriver kit @home depot I will continue to tread lightly and try not to do anything to make my harps worse and will leave the tough stuff to the more skilled but maybe I can actually replace a comb also will think about it
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HarpNinja
1441 posts
May 25, 2011
7:18 PM
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I've tried over a dozen of the Hetrick combs (both Hohner and Seydel) and really really like them. I've tried several of the wood, dymonwood, and bamboo. Don't be fooled be the price. The customer service is excellent, there is a good range of options, and the turn around it great.
I've tried combs from many of the known builders out there and the Hetrick combs are top notch. All my Marine Bands are Hetrick combs (my GM's are Sjoeberg combs).
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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![a perfect hohner](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5452421/13.jpg"){kind=link}