I was looking at my new Low F Special 20 top cover plate and noticed a marking I hadn't seen before. Just to the right of the big 20 above hole 10 there is a small lo I checked out all my other Sp 20's and there is no sign of this . Have you noticed this before and is it simply to indicate it's a Low harp?
Secondly, I love the tone of my new Marine Band harps and I believe the Sp 20's use identical reed plates. I suppose it is the plastic/wood comb that contributes most to the difference in tone but was wondering how much difference the cover plates make.
So do you think the Sp 20 with MB coverplates will sound a lot more like an MB and if so do the plates fit easily and what work is required?
sp 20s sound better to me with the backs open for better volume-dont think the mbs need the open backs like sp20s do-to me they both have good tone but quite sure the wood comb gives the mb the edge
Yes it is just to indicate "Low". I'm not sure about Sp20s, but LEe Oskars use slightly deeper coverplates on the low keys to stop the reeds hitting the cover plate.
I personally believe the vented sides of the marine band covers are far more responsible for the "Marine Band sound" than the wood comb or any other factor. I suspect a Sp20 with Marine Band covers would sound more like a MB - I'm certain it's been done many times before -fitting them shouldn't be too much of a problem.
MB covers have SIDE VENTS. Sp 20 covers are UNVENTED. I'm not a fan of either MBs or Sp 20s, but I do think that the vents have a lot to do with the characteristic MB sound. It is my impression that UNVENTED covers produce a somewhat darker tone.
There is a debate about whether comb material affects tone at all. I happen to believe that it does. But cover design definitely has a significant effect on tone.
Thanks for the feedback so far guys, keep it coming if you can.
I have just found this on another thread from Harpwrench:-
'The awesome Marine Band sound has absolutely nothing to do with the comb, it's the reeds and cover plates.'
This seems to be the consensus so far.
Anyone else actually done this conversion and happy they've got the MB sound from the SP20 and how did you fit the plates (i.e simply drill the new MB covers to match the SP holes?)
The reason I'm asking is that I bought quite a few Sp 20's which I like, but I now prefer the sound of the MB. So if it is possible to buy new MB cover plates, I would convert the Sp's to MB's if I believed I would get the MB sound for my efforts.
chromaticblues outfits SP/20 w/ new un-nailed MB plates he gets from hohner. i think they sound much closer to MBs w/ these plates.
i did a few experiments. i opened the backs and vented the sides of my SP/20 plates. they still sound like SP/20s. then i swapped plates with a chromaticblues harp mod. big difference.
i conclude that you can get closer to the MB sound w/ this mod.
but ony closer. i also out-fitted a SP with a wood comb and MB coverplates. still, nooot quite.
----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2011 11:38 AM
I fitted a G Sp20 with opened up Delta Frost cover plates but because I don't have another un-modded G SP20 to compare it with, I can't say there is any difference. The Delta Frost does have small side vents though. Sorry, not much help is it? ----------
@MP Thanks, I think you have answered my question as you have experimented yourself with various permutations.
I note your approval of the improvements gained but think I detect a little disappointment that the overall results are not quite good enough. On reflection I think I will buy more MB's particularly as I can get them pretty cheap at the moment.
I thought I read somewhere that MB's are not so impressive on the higher keys is this your experience?
If so I am pretty happy already with my GM's E and higher.
Grey, i don't know what others think. people are so divided on any topic you can think of. but for my money... i think, as a general rule, you are better off getting a good oob GM in higher keys than your chances w/ the 1896. ----------i'm starting to re-build an 1896 F right now. it's not user friendly at present.
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Quick note, the holes don't line up the same to put the covers on (two nail holes on each side vs. 1 screw hole on each side) so that makes swapping covers more of a hassle than it would be otherwise. I haven't (successfully) tried it myself, but I'm betting the covers are the driving force in the sound difference. I also wonder if maybe instead of the material in the comb being a factor if maybe it's just the shape of the comb. Plastic combs have all sorts of funny shapes and hollow spaces inside that a traditionally shaped comb doesn't. It's easy enough to test half the theory by getting someone to make a plastic comb shaped like a traditional comb and testing the sound, but it would be a real pain to try to make a wood comb shaped like a plastic one!
I wish I was more handy. I've always wanted to try some crazy experiments: half discrete combs, mounting reeds directly to the comb, flashing lights that change color with the notes you play...
@Greyowl Yes I think SP 20's sound better with MB coverplates. I don't like full coverplates that muffle the harp. If I want to mute the harp I do it with my hands. With SP 20, Golden Melody, Suzuki Hammond you get one sound. You can't make them brighter! If you know how to use your hands the MB coverplates give you the widest range of sounds! All I can say about the comb is ask a acoutical enginner if it makes a difference. When I make a Marine Band custom harp I use the stock comb! Why? Because it is a softwood which is a very porus wood. The more porus a material is the more it effects the high frequencies. The high frequencies get disrupted buy a more porus material. So if you take a SP 20 and put MB coverplates on it will it sound like a MB? NO! Why? The comb! When I build MB's I don't even seal the combs. It changes the way it sounds. I got the idea to use mineral oil from Issah. Because pear wood is a softwood it absorbes the mineral oil very well. Then it won't swell, but still has the same sound because it doesn't seal the pores of the wood. All I'm saying is don't take anyones word on this subject! If your happy with your harp than how cares, but if your like me and just can't leave anything to chance. Experiment and make your own conclusion!
the reed placement on SP/20s and MBs are also different. on MBs the reeds are at the edge of the plate. on SPs they are recessed from the edge.
even if you sandwich SP reed plates to a wood comb there is still a bit of distance; less than on a plastic comb but it's still there.
i think this, factored in with the covers, makes most of the MB sound.
of course, the only one who notices differences is the player. for the life of me- i can't tell if someones playing a manji m-20 or delta frost or what have you.
ps, i'm a big fan of pearwood combs. they are easy to work with aside from having a good tone.
some folks and harp companys say that metal combs make harps sound "brighter". i disagree. the less dense your comb, the brighter the sound. ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2011 2:12 PM
Regarding combs, I saw some solid acrylic combs on eBay for the Sp20. I was tempted but concerned because the Sp20 reedplate doesn't have that lengthwise groove that the coverplate slots into at the front, it may prove to cause discomfort. ----------
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2011 2:09 PM
@Tookatooka I have some nice wood combs for SP20's. They $25 apiece and I'll sand it flat on top and bottom. These are an improvement over the stock combs.
@Chromatic Blues. Thanks, you make some very interesting and informative points and they confirm my feelings on the matter.
@ MP "of course, the only one who notices differences is the player. for the life of me- i can't tell if someones playing a manji m-20 or delta frost or what have you."
I agree with you it is very difficult to tell the difference except to the player, even though I do believe the MB has a quite distinctive sound.
The truth is I like all of my harps, suzukis, GM's MB's SP20, so far, no Seydels yet. They all have a quality about them that when I start playing I think, ah yes that's what I like about this harp. And any one of them can become my sudden favourite!
However, since I started buying MB's this is now the harp I pick up first. Truth to be told it wasn't the easiest of harps to play at first. For instance it doesn't glide between my lips like most of my other harps, it also didn't feel quite as tight and precise and a bit airy. I have gapped them but done nothing else to them. I think they must be backed by Gillette because those reed plates have edges on them that look like they could have been modelled on the first twin blade Razor.
Yet for all these apparent misgivings I am smitten with the sound they make, which is airy, raspy, ringing yet kind of slightly mellow and er well ....musical.
I would like to record a video sometime where I compare the sound of a few harps in the same key say, Bb
i.e. MB, SP20, Manji, Suzuki promaster 350. might even throw an old Hohner Proharp 562/20 in the mix.
I'll play the same riff on each harp and number them on the vid but obscure what harp I'm playing so folk can just judge the sound and see which one they prefer without knowing the brand.
@Nacoran "I wish I was more handy. I've always wanted to try some crazy experiments: half discrete combs, mounting reeds directly to the comb, flashing lights that change color with the notes you play..."
What like a sort of practically applied illuminated version of your harp layout chart? :0)
Greyowl Yeah I started customizing harps because the same thing happened to me. I got to a point where nothing sounded as good as a Marine Band, but man what a messed up harp from the factory! Must be Quality Control hasn't made the trip from Japan to Germany yet! Oh well nothing is easy!
Once upon a time I had a sp20 c and wanted a mb c. So This may be OT but:I opened the back up;louder but not just there. Then I made side vents with a dremel rotary file. Damn close but not. Compared to a mb in c and to my ear it's very close to the same sound but with a metallic sound to it. I don't think the comb is the difference but the cover plate material. Mild steel of the mb vs. stainless sp20? I haven't compared it to the newer mb with stainless covers but old ebayers so the difference may not be off that much. I think the material the covers and thickness of it has more to do with the sound than the comb. Then again maybe I'm full of shit too!
I've modded lots and lots of harps. Swapping coverplates and reedplates. Made an aluminium comb for a marine Band. Lee Oskar plates on a Blues harp.
Come back to Marine Bands every time.
Recently I've tired of and rounding off the tines and sealing Marine Bands Classics. So bought some Special 20's. I'm fairly impressed with them, they are pretty close in tone to MB.
I opened the backs and dremel'ed slots in the end of the coverplates. But don't really want to have to do that either. :o(
So over the coming years, as my marine bands eventually wear out. I'm going with standard Special 20's.
No sealing, no filing, just playing !!
And no-one will notice except me. Well, maybe you too ;o)
Ps. For the deepest,richest tone from any harp. Try Suzuki ProMaster cover plates on a Special 20.
@chromaticblues Yeah it's a shame because it could be an outstanding harp all round with very little work involved to sort it out.
@Zipperhead & 7 Thanks guys
Oh my, endless permutations, arghh what do I do!!?!!
I think like 7,I'll just play what I've got and stay happy. I haven't owned MB's long enough to appreciate, if that's the right word, the degradation of the harp i.e comb swelling protruding tines, leakage etc., In your experience is it pretty bad or can you live with it and how long would a Stock unsealed MB classic last?
I have got a couple of promasters and am intrigued by your approach of fixing ProM covers to SP20's. I'm assuming it's a straight swap or do you have to drill?
I have to say I like my promasters anyway, they are very bright, about the same as the MB but that MB tone is still slightly different (a bit of magic somehow which I can't put my finger on!!)
The promaster covers will sit in place without drilling. So try it out and see if you like it first.
If so, you elongate the existing holes in the reedplate and comb. The standard coverplates can still be fitted even after drilling.
Re Marine band swelling. It really depends on how much you slobber into the harp !
Over the years of playing I've found I don't drool like I used too. Well apart from at tasty wimmins ;o)
I like the Promasters too, but since they've gone to welded reeds, its too much hassel to replace reeds so I won't buy any more. ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
@Zipperhead Yes I agree the material and thickness and the covers does have MORE to do with the "tone" of a harp than the comb does. My statement was that the comb materiel does affect the sound of a harmonica. Prior to about ten years ago nobody said comb material had a affect on the sound of a harp. It was just the opposite! Back to coverplates: Try swaping Crossover and Marin Band covers. Those look very similiar, but sound different due to what zipperhead said. Honestly people keep trying to make the Marine Band better with new and improved parts (and even Hohner is guilty of this), but I think the sound quality of the MB 1896 is better than the MBD and the Crossover. If they started using Bamboo combs on the 1896 MB I think the sales would go up because it would more user friendly. Thats about the only change I would make.
The Marine Band Deluxe is an excellent harmonica. It is the same tuning as the MB Classic and Special 20. It has screws instead of nails, you can buy replacement reed plates in most common keys, and they aren't very hard to find. In fact, you can get the MBD in Low F (no replacement plates, though).
The old-old Marine Bands didn't have open backs, but they were much more open than the ones you buy today. The MBD has open cover plates, but otherwise uses the exact same covers as the classic...same reed plates too. In fact, the comb is also pearwood, but it has a different stain and some sealing. You can also order replacement combs for the MBD direct through Hohner.
I am not a huge SP20 fan regardless of the comb. The tone just isn't for me as I like the edgier sound of the MB. I've tried the SP20 with composite combs as well as bamboo, but it just isn't the right harp for my style. I really like the cover plates regarding how they feel in my hands, but I think vented covers are probably my preference.
I find the benefits of the MBD to easily warrant the extra cost. Out of all the MB's, I like the Crossover best because of the comb, but I actually gig with all three throughout various keys...although I use bamboo combs with my MBD's and composite combs for the Classics.
@ Greyowl, I bought my first Marine Band(C)in october 2010 I play it at least 30 minutes a day. I don't slobber, I play pucker but been experimenting with octaves and tongue block for the last month. That harp plays great and the comb never swells. In december I bought my second(Bb) it's a little bit harder to play but the comb never swells. I don't know if it changes something but both harps where blister pack.
Martin ---------- Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Isaac Asimov
Cor, thanks guys I'm getting tons of info here and it is helping me loads.
@7LimitJl Haha Even though I have a dry throat condition I seem to be able to produce saliva on the scale of that dog in the film Turner & Hooch, which doesn't bode well for my MB combs. Ta for the promaster info, I'll give it a try.
@chromatic blues, Yes I agree a bamboo comb would be great and shouldn't make it much more expensive. I wouldn't even mind nailed reed plates if the comb was good and I could easily replace the coverplate nails with bolts.
@Harpninja Yes I might look at the MBD again. I bought one in D when I started to play again and unfortunately it wasn't great OOTB which put me off a bit, however I've picked up a lot of info on gapping since then and after working on it I find it a pretty decent harp now.
The trouble is The MBD is around twice the price of what I'm paying for the MB at present.
I've also got this nagging image of Adam G. playing OOTB MB's and he seems to get on just fine with them. I've got to do something with these reed plate edges though, they're so sharp.
@zipperhead16 "I think the material the covers and thickness of it has more to do with the sound than the comb."
I happen to think cover THICKNESS has an effect on tone. All other things being equal I think thicker covers tend to sound BRIGHTER. Of course, cover DESIGN definitely effects tone, too.
Depending on your level of technical ability, it isn't very hard to seal/replace/mod combs. If you are looking for cost effective, sealing the combs on your own is the easiest route.
If you are savvy enough, you can continue to use the nails and probably have no issues. I look at it as an investment over time...for the cost of two MB's, I might have a harp that, due to comb issues, will last twice as long...
My generic advice is to get the best harps you can for the keys you use all the time (for me it would be C, A, D, G, F, and Bb) and lesser harps in lesser used keys.
Maybe if you aren't using a Eb very much, the comb won't ever be an issue?
Also, remember, replacing the MBD down the road is cheaper since you can buy specific parts. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 2/24/11
@Greyowl I agree that adam makes the ootb marine band 1896 play well=I have sent my 5th and last old mb1896 out-they have a great sound after being tweaked-a lot of legendary music has been created by this humble little harp
Liquid metal is a material they use in golf clubs. It is essentially a metal glass. It bounces! Other materials of interest that sound like science fiction include alum a.k.a. transparent aluminum. It's what's replacing the old generation of bullet proof glass. It would be fun to mess with memory metal reeds too (a titanium alloy.)
Stone could be cool too. Unfortunately, the one that would be the coolest, soapstone, may also be toxic. :(
How about carbon composite combs? There are so many things people with a budget could experiment with.
One purely aesthetic idea I had was using a clear acrylic, but putting little things floating in it. It could be anything from glitter to little clef symbols, maybe even holograms. Again, it's just for show, but look at the crazy things other musicians (particularly guitar players) do to their instruments.
since this is a special20 question thread I have one-has anybody ever had a leaky sp20? I have bought about 20 of them and they are always air tight-I know there are issues with the factory tuning tho
i know i'm supposed to love marine bands, everybody says so. but i've always found them completely unplayable. i've got some laying around from back before i knew better or could find anything else. but i don't use 'em for anything other than decoration. i guess it's just me or something.
@Harpninja Thanks for the extra info. @Groyster1 and garry I shouldn't like the MB really as my SP20's and suzuki's are easier & more comfortable to play, for instance the cover plates on the MB's don't glide as well, however I do like the feel of the MB in the hands. You have to work a bit harder with the MB but IMO it's worth it for the reward of the tone you get from these harps.
I haven't experienced a leaky SP20 yet, although I do gap them for my playing style as sometimes you get a reed that isn't as responsive as it should be.
@Nacoran I really think you should be in the research & development section of Hohner or Suzuki, speciality......combs;o)
@garry: I agree with you 100%. I, too, used to play MBs before I knew any better and I am mystified by the popularity of MBs. I think they are the crappiest harps I've ever played. Go figure...
For what it's worth I have always pretty much played Marine Bands, I never had a problem with them swelling and I've only every seriously flatted out one reed. I have tried other models but always come back to MBs. For me the tone is the main thing, also I guess I just got used to them early on and now everything else doesn't feel quite right. Saying that I do do a fair amount of work to them now to get them to play the way I like.
Anyway what I really wanted to ask is: @chromaticblues, MP mentions that you can get new un-nailed MB cover plates from Hohner. I would like to get some, can you just contact them and request them? I am in the UK
I live in the US so I deal Hohner USA. I think you'll have to deal directly with Hohner. If you buy coverplates from the parts department they are new without nail holes.
@hvyi It's odd because I like Hammonds & Gm's like your good self and no doubt they are easier to play. However it's just this tone issue for me which of course is in the 'ear of the beholder'.
As I said before, I don't dislike any of my harps and they all have some discernable and likeable quality when I play them.
I think it's pretty cool you can choose a harp to suit the mood and style of the piece you're playing such as the smooth dark tone of the Hammonds and the edgier brighter almost tinny edge of the GM.
I think the MB offers yet another different colour to playing which I really like, as I have described earlier.
I wouldn't play the MB just for the sake of it or because of its history and the fact that I'm sticking to it in spite of it's relative difficulties demonstrates it's all about the tone for me.
I have just been learning a piece on the MB and in spite of the fact that it felt as if my lips were being lacerated after an hour's playing I still kept plugging away although I did take a time-out and reach for the lip cooling and easi-glide therapy of the stainless steel cover plates on my Promaster aaaaah!!
I will continue to play all my harps and enjoy every one of them.
That's what's interesting and at the same time pointless about these debates..... it's all down to personal preference.
Any given harp player given a choice to name his or her least favourite harp will say:
I think the [feel free to fill in the Make and model here..................] is the worst harp ever made!!
haha, I have to say I am very uncomfortable with that title, but then my ego whispered in my ear 'It does have a very nice ring to it'! :) It's certainly a step up from one Forum member who labelled me 'Grey Old Phart' which was a tad unkind if not disturbingly accurate!
GGOM says 'A bad player can make a good harp sound bad whereas a good player can make a bad harp sound good'
@Greyowlphotoart: You know, MBs and GMs use the same reedplates, although GMs are tuned to ET.
Personally, I don't like the tonal characteristics of MBs. i don't like the tonal characteristics of Manjis either. But that's just subjective preference, and I respect the fact that many players like the distinctive MB sound.
The crappy construction of MBs is, however, objectively appalling. Compared to a quality instrument like, for example, a Suzuki Hammond, I find MBs unplayable. I haven't tried the MB Deluxe or MB crossover, though. .
I go back and forth between MB's and GM's. Something I've noticed over time is the MB tone seems to be the easiest to tweak by modding. For example, Buddha MB's (regardless of the harp's original manufacture date) all have a snappiness and presence that is totally unique and not like the sound of a stock MB (a familiar point of reference for several on the board).
By adding SP20 cover plates, like Jason Ricci or Howard Levy, etc, some of the raspy nature of the MB is taken away.
IME, SP20s always sound like SP20s and GMs always sound like GMs. I spent a good deal of time trying to recreate the sound/feel of a Buddha and Spiers MBs in C in a GM in C. I got to the point where, without coverplates, the tone (at least from the player's perspective) was in the same range. The feel was very similar as well. Obviously the comparisons were to two different harps that had a unique stamp all there own, so there was no way to get all three to sound the same, but I got as close as I could to replicating the general reaction and change in tone from a stock MB (I technically tried to recreate the Buddha using similar work and then moved beyond that to other techniques).
The second I put cover plates on the harps, it was back to sounding like a GM. I tried the experiment with different GM combs - stock, composite Buddha, and a composite Sjoeberg, but the tone itself was pretty much the same regardless...especially compared to having the coverplates on/off.
I haven't had time to try much with switching MB coverplates with SP20's as I'd rather just use a GM.
@hvyi If you don't particularly care for the tone of the MB's then I understand there is no incentive to get past the relative discomfort and build characteristics of the harp. It is pretty cheap harp though as I can buy them for under £20.00 in the UK whereas the Hammond for instance is around £45.00
The one MBD I own in D is more comfortable to play for sure but it did take a bit of gapping to get it right. I wasn't immediately impressed but it's fine now. I probably should have tried a lower key as any difficulties are magnified on the higher key harps. Haven't tried the Crossover yet.
You may also not like the feel of the MB in the hand as they feel lightweight and small compared to the GM and Suzukis, but I'm quite liking this feel now as I get more used to playing it.
I agree with most of the stuff that was told here . I am a sp20 user and experimented with the covers , but in the end they still sound like a SP20 , the open covers sided vents makes them a little bit more airy and brighter , but not much. Greyowl the only other thing that I like about the open covers on modified covers on Sp20 ,is the fact that makes it easier to record at home with a more constant sound level , especially when you use the hand wah wah .It softens up the effect. here's a picture with sp20 stock and modifed covers. ---------- Free video harp tabs and backing tracks
@HarpNinja "By adding SP20 cover plates, like Jason Ricci or Howard Levy, etc, some of the raspy nature of the MB is taken away."
Yeah, the thing is I like that raspy sound. I will try to upload a small sample by JJ Milteau which highlights this quality (IMO) for those who don't know about this characteristic.
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2011 4:22 AM
