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Confused by Manji
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Woland
6 posts
Jan 18, 2021
1:15 PM
I started on Hohner Special 20 (in A). Never really try to play blues before - mostly used it for playing Bob Dylan stuff - I play guitar too. Then later I wanted to try harmonica online class with Annie Raines so I got Hohner Rocket (in C). Both plastic comb and recessed design.

I got basic bending quickly but could not bend hole 3 on Rocket beyond semitone so I thought that perhaps I should try traditional type of harp so I splurged on Manji in C (after reading all the stellar reviews online).

Well... I am really confused by it. People say it is loud and expressive... Rocket feels effortless and much louder by comparison. I struggle to get emboucher right on the "railed" mouthpiece of Manji - I can get it right if I touch bottom rail with my tongue and channel air. Then I get nice clean notes - still not even close to Rocket in loudness. But I can't bend - I need to move my tongue for that so I switch to "pucker" (bury harp in my lower lip) and it is super airy and leaky - even though I get good notes on Hohners that way (and even on my Kongsheg's Mars with rounded holes).

So I am confused - I saw some videos saying that "Manji requires more precise technique and will make you better player". I have to admit - the harp feels precise in tuning. It responds well to bending attempts and changes in embouchure when blowing. But it sounds weaker and feels "stiff" when compared to Hohners.

Any advice? Am I jumping ahead of myself and trying harp that is better suited to non-beginner?
SuperBee
6880 posts
Jan 18, 2021
8:35 PM
I have to say, I only ever bought 1 Manji. I really wasn't impressed. I persisted with it until it went flat or I thought it had and then I retired it. Eventually I "sold" it for the price of postage.

Since then I've encountered a few which were sent to me for service; IE, cleaning, tuning, Reed work. I've managed to make all those play okay, and I refused my original negative impression. Also, there really is no denying that some of the people who endorse them know what they are doing, so obviously the Manji is not inherently a dud product.

I am not tempted to go there though, for several reasons.

Firstly, I don't need to. I'm very happy with my harps. I can't see any reason to put myself through a process of adapting to something else.

Secondly, they are harder to repair than my current harps. Apparently Marine Band reeds are a perfect fit, which makes sense to me since I believe the Manji is basically a copy of the Marine Band with a reason comb. That's fine, it means I can repair with new reeds, but also why would I do that rather than just use a Marine Band in the first place?
Third, following on from second, is the comb. I really don't like it and I believe it's often been the root cause of the trouble. I may have out of date information though. It's possible that Suzuki have improved the comb, because they are that kind of business. I think though, if I have to replace the comb, again I may as well just stay with Marine Band and replace the comb if appropriate.
Fourth is the tuning. It's basically ET and that is fine if it suits. I know it's not really ET but it's like the 3rds are lowered by 5 cents which doesn't really work for me.

So, I have never found a compelling reason to get into them, but I'm really not knocking them. Suzuki is a quality operation. I'm just coming from a background of disappointment with everything I've tried from them and so I wore them off years ago. Probably before I was really in a position to fairly judge.

I could say, there was at some point fairly widespread acknowledgement that the Manji comb was sub par at least in some cases. That could be affecting your experience. I do think the reeds may be a bit more demanding than the hohner reeds. I certainly find them a bit more demanding to set up.
Woland
7 posts
Jan 18, 2021
10:33 PM
Thanks for detailed reply. I know that Manji reeds are phosphor-bronze as compared to bronze ones for Hohner. Tomlin Leckie commented on YT that Manji "puts more resistance" and requires better technique. To be quite honest it was impulse buy after listening to some of the Christelle Berthon's playing. And she mentioned that Manji was her main harp for several years. In other words it is buying gears hoping to sound like someone else.
I should have know better - I know that intimately from guitar playing. But with guitars I can go to store, sit in front of the amp for 2 hours and truly make educated decision - not based on reviews but based what instrument inspires in me.
Oh well - chalk it for experience I guess - maybe I should stick with bronze reeds and Hohner for a while. I posted it also in another forum and few people had similar less than stellar Manji experience. Also got recommendation for DaBell Nobel diatonics. To my ears the demos I heard sound quite bright - could be maple comb.
SuperBee
6881 posts
Jan 19, 2021
11:53 AM
I have some "auto-correct" errors in post above. Apologies for those.

IMHO a good harp shouldn't be hard to play. I think there's a possible advantage to some of these reed materials in longevity of tuning stability and the trade off is in "playability".
I don't really know but I think Suzuki sponsored Christelle for a while at least. I can see those harps could suit her approach.
I haven't checked it out but from what I've seen of the manji when working on them I expect they are really well suited to overblow technique.

I bought a Seydel 1847 once because I was taking lessons with a guy who played those and he had incredible tone. I wondered how much was attributable to the harp. Turns out "some" but none of the important part.
Woland
8 posts
Jan 19, 2021
2:38 PM
I saw some YT vids by Christelle that were looked like Suzuki promos. I think that she is playing Dannecker harps now - a loss to Suzuki - no doubt since she is such a great player. She also reviewed DaBell Nobel last year and quite liked it.

I talked about Annie Raines about Manji - specifically about embouchure for "rail" geometry of traditional harp. She has no experience with Manji harps but suggested concentrating on relaxing lips to get good airtight fit. Thing is - no matter what I do there are cases when harp does not engage - I hear the air first and reed starts later. It could be because holes on Manji are probably 3/4 in size when compared with say Hohner Rocket or Special 20. So you need finer degree of precision with Manji. I do not think it necessarily reflects on Suzuki - I have their chromatic harp and it is fine instrument. Again my frame of reference are guitars - there was a time when I sold some fine instruments because they did not sound right in my hands. These days I know better how to find "sweet spot" and make guitar play right. Assuming correct setup etc.
eetechTom
64 posts
Jan 21, 2021
7:44 PM
My 2 cents. I have several Manji’s, and was avoiding Marine Band after reading about their quality struggles when I first started out about 5 years ago. My first harp was a Delta Frost. I bought a Marine Band online through Goodwill 2 years ago. I like it better, easier to bend, sounds very good. I have a MB Deluxe which is great, a little tougher when trying to tongue block for me. I learned as a pucker player, and am trying to tongue block more.

PS I am not an advanced level player.
Woland
9 posts
Jan 21, 2021
9:32 PM
Hey eeTechTom - I think my first harp was Hohner BluesBand - splinters in my lips... well not literally ;-) but I did not like wooden comb. So next I jump to Special 20 and I still have it - 10 years later. I am primarily guitar player so harp was always on back burner for me. But I started getting too much pain in my fretting hand several times a year now so I decided to get more serious with harmonica.
I learned to play with tongue on harp - although not really tone blocking but more channeling. You get very clean single notes - and I still do it a lot on chromatic but on diatonic it makes bending `problematic. I asked that question about it before on the forum and it seems that there is a way to bens with tongue blocking. Right now I am trying to get comfy with puckering on different harps - I have SP20 and Rocket from Hohner, couple Kongsheng Mars harps and a Manji. Manji and Kongsheng have phosphor bronze reeds. Hohners with their bronze reeds feel effortless in comparison to them. Mars is very nice but for my ears it lacks the "edge" for blues but as far as reed precision I think it is on par with Manji. And much easier to play than Manji. I keep reaching for Manji and got a bit better on it but I still produce notes that arrive on crutches - so to speak. Maybe it is just a learning curve.
I am a beginner so it is an interesting journey - I know about guitars, different wood, pickups, strings, picks, amps etc. Why certain configuration works for certain music. I just start seeing similar ideas in harmonicas - Hohners would be like low gauge strings for Strat. Easy for blues but not the greatest idea for jazz. I have d'Angelico jazz box with flat wound 13s you cannot bend those and it is not an easy instrument - requires dedication and clean, precise playing. But it is great jazz instrument.
eetechTom
65 posts
Jan 25, 2021
4:13 PM
Interesting comparisons to guitar. Harmonica is all I know how to play, but what you say makes sense to me. It ends up being all about personal preference, kinda like speakers in an audio system. Buy what works for you. No one else matters.
Woland
10 posts
Jan 29, 2021
10:57 PM
Well - as an update - I really started struggling against the harp. Some helpful folks on another forum directed me to Jason Ricci Manji seminar on YT. OK - I know I am not Jason but I could not locate the dividing factor when it came to basic tone production on Manji. Finally I emailed Suzuki US distributor and they directed me to their repair tech. I sent the harp - it did not come back yet - I will report if that was successful move (certainly adds to the price of the instrument).


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