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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
What sense does this make?
What sense does this make?
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pistolero
67 posts
Feb 17, 2011
5:23 PM
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You can find Hohner MS reed plates everywhere for $25. I can buy a Big River harmonica for $22.50 shipped. So it costs them more to put the reed plates and screws in a case than to take the reed plates and comb and covers, put them together with the screws, and put it in a case?
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It's MUSIC, not just complicated noise.
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thechangingcolors
31 posts
Feb 17, 2011
6:24 PM
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their just a bunch of greedy capitalists. you cant hold them accountable for stuff like that, their minds have long since been ruined.
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Pluto
128 posts
Feb 17, 2011
6:31 PM
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pisto,
the reed plates in a big river aren't as thick as after market MS plates. They fit, but they're more stout
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pistolero
68 posts
Feb 17, 2011
6:38 PM
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Hmmm, I just assumed .... I know, but I thought the whole Idea of the "Modular System" would mean the parts are the same. I guess "interchangeable" doesn't really equal "identical".
So what comes in the Blues Harp, the thick ones or the same as the Big River?
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It's MUSIC, not just complicated noise.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2011 6:39 PM
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OzarkRich
394 posts
Feb 17, 2011
6:50 PM
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I personally can't tell a difference in sound between the various MS reedplates, even the chrome Meisterklasse plates. As a result, I've bought quite a few Big Rivers, even though I don't care for the coverplates
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Ozark Rich
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KingoBad
613 posts
Feb 17, 2011
7:26 PM
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@thechangingcolors
The correct answer is "buy the new Big River then..."
Capitalist does not equal greed. Some of us here might actually be capitalists who would rather talk about blues harmonica instead of suffering insults...
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2011 7:29 PM
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pistolero
69 posts
Feb 17, 2011
7:40 PM
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He may wise up after he gets out and works for a living for a while. It's easy to be an idealist before reality gets it's chance to smack you around a while.
Or maybe not.
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It's MUSIC, not just complicated noise.
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Aussiesucker
758 posts
Feb 17, 2011
8:02 PM
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@ The Changing Colours >No one is forcing you into buying them!
Reading some of the comments here reminds me of this story:-
Quote-
"A young woman was about to finish her first year of university. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be very socialist minded, and she was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs – in other words, the redistribution of wealth.
She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch blue-ribbon conservative, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had attended, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harboured an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.
One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs.
The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth, and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing at university.
Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 90% average, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many university friends because she spent all her time studying.
Her father listened and then asked, “How is your friend Audrey doing?” She replied, “Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies and she barely has a 50% average. She is so popular on campus; university for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties, and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over.”
Her wise father asked his daughter, “Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct 20% off your average and give it to your friend who only has 50%. That way you will both have a 70% average, and certainly that would be fair and equal.”
The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back, “That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!”
The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, “Welcome to the Conservative side of the fence.”"
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nacoran
3819 posts
Feb 18, 2011
1:23 AM
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That's fine, except Becky has a learning disability, and Sussan is working two jobs and just making C's because she has no time to study because her father isn't paying her way through school. Joe went to a lousy inner-city school and although he's working hard and making progress the grades just aren't there yet. Sally has a crazy roommate who snores so loud she can never get sleep and Beth is going to have to drop out at the end of the semester because someone slipped her a ruffie and now she's pregnant.
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Nate
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Stevelegh
56 posts
Feb 18, 2011
1:52 AM
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Agree with Aussiesucker and Nacoran on this.
Capitalism can be ugly and selfish, but socialism has many many faults.
Why should you work all your life to support the lazy and idle?
Conversely, it's a sad society indeed that ignores poverty and need in our midst.
Back to Hohner, whether or not they're capitalist pigs, look at the maths:
Price of combs, mass produced: $0.05 maybe?
Cover plates: Same, each one.
Both are done in China on the Big River as are the plates.
Now look at the MS plates. Made and tuned in Germany (labour is much more expensive), boxed and shipped.
If you look at it, all the work goes on the reed plates and you've still got to ship the same sized item.
Look at some of the prices our customiser friends charge here. They are charging $300 plus for what is essentially a $20 harp.
They're not capitalist pigs, they're offering a valued service, but in order for that service to be viable, there are fixed costs, shipping and wages to cover.
If you don't want to buy the MS plates, don't, but they're really not being unreasonable with those prices.
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MrVerylongusername
1564 posts
Feb 18, 2011
2:46 AM
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Re: Big Rivers, Hohner MS, China & Germany
Are Big Rivers "MADE" in Germany or "ASSEMBLED" in Germany?
I know it says "made" on the box, but "made" can mean put together from parts.
Religion is a banned subject. Personally I think politics has no place here either. I take offense at some of the comments above - I won't say which for fear of prolonging silly and pointless argument.
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thechangingcolors
33 posts
Feb 18, 2011
3:44 AM
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uhh okay i was actually just kinda messing around with that one, but i apologize. i'l refrain from mentioning off topic matters in the future
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chromaticblues
609 posts
Feb 18, 2011
5:43 AM
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And we have a winner!
Mr. long name is correct. I don't care if says they are made on the moon! I brought this up before and people started pointing out that it says right on the box they are made in Germany!
Honestly I really don't care that much, but I believe Mr. long name is correct. They are obviously not being made in the same factory.
@ thecolors Try spending the extra $10 a buy a SP 20. I think you'll be glad you did. Oh I just thought of this. there replacement reedplates cost $20, but they cost $33. Man if what you said about the price of the Big River reedplates is true. That just doesn't make sense!
I don't think you need to apologize at all. That was agood question and steve gave you good answer. I didn't know that Big River replacement reedplates came from Germany. That is interesting. I wonder if they are as good as Sp 20/MB/GM. Now if they are. Buying the cheaper harp and putting good reedplates in after those go bad isn't a bad alternative. Although they still cost more than SP 20's. That part puzzles me! I don't use any of the MS harps. So I really don't know much about it. I've worked on a few and slots are really wide and the tuning marks look like someone that didn't give a shit about the finnished product was doing it. That was enough for me!
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barbequebob
1554 posts
Feb 18, 2011
7:32 AM
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The MS series uses 3 different reed plates.
One set, which has the reed plates at the more standard thickness of 0.90mm are used on the following models: Big River, Blues Harp, Pro Harp and the discontinued (and only issued in Europe) MS Marine Band.
Another set uses a thicker reed plate at a thickness of 1.05mm (the safest thickess in the hands of a very hard player) and that's used on the Cross Harp and the now discontinued Martin. This is the Cross Harp reed plate set that is the only MS series replacement set sold retail.
Finally, the other set has the same thickness as the Cross Harp plates, but also has the plates (but NOT the reeds) nickel plated and that's used on the MS Meisterklasse and the now discontinued Tiffany model. This set is only available directly from Hohner.
So, bottom line, is that when you replace the Big River plates with the Cross Harp plates, at the same time you're replacing the plates, you are also UPGRADING yoour harmonica at the same time and if you take the time to check out the price of a brand new Cross Harp model, you'll obviously find out that it is a more expensive instrument to begin with.
In Europe, they carry all three plates, but mainly direct from Hohner, but if you insist on getting the exact reed plate for the Big River, you'd need to order it from their European site, which is http://www.hohner.de/index.php5?1755, but when you take into account the cost of shipping, duty, and you will have to pay the VAT tax, it's gonna cost you more than getting the Cross Harp reedplate set.
I'm no fan of the MS series, and they are much better than when they first came out in 1992. The only thing I like about them are the cases they come in. The only MS setup I liked was using a combination of the Big River cover plates (which, BTW, are the SAME as the MS Marine Band covers were with different writing on the top cover plate), Cross Harp reed plates, and a fully sealed maple comb made by Mark Lavoie, which allowed you to use 5 reed plate screws for a tighter seal.
The CORRECT screwdriver for everything on an MS harp is a Pozidriv #1, which is hard to find in the US, but the best place to get them is from the finest maker of them at http://www.wihatools.com and they're listed under precision screwdrivers.
In a pinch, you can substitute a Phillips #1 screwdriver, but heed this warning: USE EXTREME CAUTION because the real problem is that the cap screws used on the cover plate screws are VERY delicate and the the probelm to worry about is shredding the slot that the screwdriver goes in. You can still have a problem with it even with the Pozidriv, but you cannot allow yourself to be in a hurry and overly macho trying to overtighten it.
The reedplate set does come with new screws and the reed plate screws are self tapping and make sure everything is properly aligned before putting them in (again: NEVER be in a freaking hurry or something will be getting messed up), and I find that using the old screws is easier to do the tapping and then replace them with the new screws, but just in case, make sure you save the old screws.
This should clear that up.
Well, this all is much like what Rod Piazza told me about most harp players: "They're either to broke or too cheap to buy the right s**t!" I tend to agree with that.
Hey guys, let's keep the religion and politics out!!!! Extremes at each end are too intolerant for my taste and I don't need to hear that crap and if I need it, I'll watch the "talking heads" on TV for a laugh at both sides of the extremes.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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acerimusdux
2 posts
Feb 18, 2011
8:33 AM
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I think that part of this is that Hohner actually makes two different replacement reed sets, but Hohner USA has decided to only carry the more expensive one. I believe the thinner replacement plates are available some places.
As for the "made in Germany", note that this is different from the "hand made in Germany" label you get on the Marine Band, Special 20, etc. The MS harp manufacturing process was largely automated, but apparently due to quality control problems they have gone back to doing the final tunning, gapping, and assembly by hand.
As for the size of the original reed plates for different models:
0.90mm - Blues Harp, Big River, Pro Harp
1.05mm - Cross Harp, Meisterklasse
I don't know how much better the 1.05mm plates are, but the models that actually have them cost twice as much as the plates (though IMO the Cross Harp is badly overpriced).
edit: hmm it looks like Bob has beaten me to the punch by a full hour. I guess I should refresh those old pages before replying.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 8:44 AM
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Joe_L
1072 posts
Feb 18, 2011
9:45 AM
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I buy MS replacement reed plates on an annual basis. I don't like having extra junk littering my house, like bad reedplates, old cover plates, combs, etc...
Before the last big price increase, I did buy a bunch of Big River harps for $17 at Guitar Center. I've played a bunch of them. Honestly, I think the quality of replacement reed plates are better and I will probably return to buying those periodically, when I need new harps.
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nacoran
3821 posts
Feb 18, 2011
12:07 PM
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Sorry, I wasn't try to be argumentative. It was 4 am and my brain filter wasn't at full strength.
I've posted this before, but here is my theory of why you need a product at each price point-
A kid and his mom walk into a music store. The kid wants his first harmonica. The mother came to the store because the kid looked up and saw they were as cheap as $5. The store clerk says, 'Sure enough, we have $5 harps, but they aren't really good. What you want is this $30 harp.' The mother, on a tight budget, is a little uneasy about a $30 harp. The kid says he'll go without allowance. That's still not enough, so the shop clerk suggests the $20 harp. He says it's not quite pro level but it's a good starter harp. Deal.
Meanwhile, another kid is listening. He's a bit older. He has a job, but he still lives at home, so he has a little spending money. He's in a blues band and always wanted to try harmonica. He asks for one of the $30 harps. The clerk asks him which one. He's not sure. Which one would he suggest?
Well, one has wooden combs. They have 'better' tone according to some people. They require a little more maintenance. He suggests for the best of both worlds they have fully sealed wood combs that use screws! They are $50. The kid puts one set of guitar strings back and eats the rest of the cost. He buys a $5 harp for his kid brother. He also doesn't feel too bad, because there was a dusty $120 harp in the harp case too. The dust was what sold him on the $50 harp. It didn't have any. It meant that people who knew more about harp than he did were buying them and leaving the $120 harps alone.
The mother wouldn't have gone to the store if she knew they cost as much as they do. The guitar player wouldn't buy them if they cost as much as a guitar, but he didn't mind shelling out $50, and he got his brother a toy for $5. The shop sold $75 worth of harps. How much extra floor space did those extra models cost them?
Capitalism has it's flaws, but it's also very good at producing economic activity, which is really the only way to produce a tax base. And sometimes the taxes themselves provide economic activity- teacher salaries, Social Security payments, which can in turn produce economic activity. The trick just comes down to figuring out the different price points, just like everything else.
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Nate
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hvyj
1252 posts
Feb 18, 2011
4:38 PM
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For quite a few years i played Hohner MS Pro Harps and I also had a set of MS Meisterklasse. hohners are not particularly durable so I wound up replacing the .90mm reedplates in my Pro Harps with 1.05mm reedplates on multiple occasions. I could NOT hear or feel ANY difference whatsoever in the different thicknesses of the 2 reedplates. NONE. NADA.
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joeleebush
206 posts
Feb 18, 2011
5:35 PM
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Only an opinion here, opinion only, REPEAT..OPINION only (to placate the thought police)
I am too broke and too cheap to buy the right(?) stuff.
And I don't do free shows or benefits.
$200-$300 for a harmonica???? Too much monkey business for me to be involved in.
Who is John Galt...
"Old Grouchy".
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KingoBad
616 posts
Feb 18, 2011
8:17 PM
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Hard to "shrug" off that opinion Mr. Grouchy...
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 8:17 PM
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Mojokane
289 posts
Feb 18, 2011
8:56 PM
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the..'too cheap to buy the'....and the... 'too broke to afford the' Rod Piazza line, is dead on.
I'm a special 20 fan. But I have cultivated a good relationship with a custom tuner.
Which, when bartering or spending actual money...enables my habit, to a level I can live with. It's mostly about playing harmonica....and playing well. And I have even found $5 harps very satisfying..
Alot of trouble over not much....
my two cents.
I consider myself a capitalist, fiscal conservative, free market, Laissez-faire (let be), charitable kinda guy. Stay out of other countries biz...etc...etc..ETC!
I'll mind my own business, too. And I'm not feeling guilty about it.
Let's play harp and enjoy the fruits of our labor.
How bout some beer and BBQ?
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Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
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