most of its good advice. i disagree with the part about we should learn another instrument so we understand more about music structure. of course learning another instrument could never hurt, but you can know everything there is to know about music/music theory/structure etc. etc. (hypothetically) even if you dont play any instrument. anyone can take it upon themselves to learn more about chords and stuff they dont neccesarrily have to play an instrument with unlimited chord variations and such..
That interview that David Barrett does with Mark Hummell about playing with a pickup band has some really good stuff. If I recall correctly it covers some of the same ground.
Listen grasshopper... don't let your backside do all the chirping...
David Barrett would not post this if he thought it was bad advice, and he does know something about teaching harmonica...
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2011 7:22 PM
@ changin... If you listen more closely, the suggest that some harp players arent playing from within the band, playing another instrument puts you in a different position in the band........
My 2 cents...
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 2:28 AM
i listened closely i assure you. i know they made several points in the video and as i said, mostly good advice. but the guitar player (or the guy holding a guitar anyway) said "i would like to see harp players learn another intrument, preferably a guitar or a piano, a more chordal instrument, just to know more about music structure.."
and as i said, this point is somewhat invalid because you can learn about music structure and chords and such without actually learning to play another intrument. thats all im saying. harmonica players could be experts on music theory if they wanted to be. its called research/studying
My advice to the guitar player is that he should learn to play the euphonium while standing on his head--preferably while in the middle of a heavily traveled street.
@ changin' and hvyj - The guy holding the guitar is Rusty Zinn. He probably has more musical knowledge in his big toe than 90% of the world's harp players put together.
Those three guys are some of the most respected blues players in the world. They really know their shit.
Most harmonica players know next to nothing about timing, chordal structures, music notation, or how to explain feels, grooves to other musicians. Those three guys know all of that and then some. The simple fact is that most harmonica player do over play. Most do not play in a manner that is sympathetic to the tune being played, often just playing their "pet" licks. Some harp players can't even get the bloody key right!!!!
The advice that Rusty gave to "learn a chordal instrument" is a wise one. Because it would teach most players not only music structure but also the language with which to explain the music to other players.
If I was in a room with these three guys and they were talking music I can tell you for damned certain I'd be listening to and taking in every word. Because they have so much experience and wisdom. And I have been playing harmonica for over twenty years!
I don't agree with your train of thought Kingley, but you are right Rusty Zinn. To say the guy holding the guitar. Is like telling Adam Gussow I like your web site, but your not really that good a harp player! OK Thats umm (OK politicaly correct way of saying this) wrong! Rusty Zinn is one of the best blues/Jazz guitar players on the west coast. I have seen/heard him play a few times. Its not BULL.;'];! He is one of the best! OK hvyj thats funny! I'm not going to buy a piano on my way home tonight, but think about what he said and why he said it? He is a west coast jump blues guitarist. I'm betting he has played with a many harp players. Don't shoot the messenger if the news is bad! Ofcourse this is a blanket statement and not everyone falls into that catagory. This is the same dead horse we have beat into ground already. What he means is most harp players don't know enough about what they are doing. The man is right! Think about it. I played in a band right from the start with no musical background at all. How did I learn? The guitar player tought me! Well if you don't play in a band and aren't good enough. What do you do? If you play the guitar or piano you could play along and know how to play songs! Thats important! I think that was between the lines there somewhere.
@Kingley: Oh, I absolutely agree with what the other guys were saying--especially the stuff about how harp players should play to enhance the material instead of just trying to take it over. But I still think that what Rusty Zinn is saying is a lot of B.S.
Personally, I keep a little electric piano around to use to help me figure stuff out (especially chords). But the bandleader of my band has a masters in music and the drummer has a bachelors in music. The bandleader of the band I play with as a sideman also has a masters in music. Now these guys may get on me about playing lines that fit the chordal structure of the material and may explain chord structures to me to help me out, or they may suggest i use certain keys (positions) to play certain tunes correctly or they may tell me to use two harps on a certain tune so i can play the necessary chord tones. But none of them has suggested that I learn to sing and play guitar (or tap dance) in order to improve my harmonica playing. And, frankly, I don't need to learn guitar to be able to communicate with professional musicians--I know considerably more theory than a lot of the guitar players I run into at jams.
What i get from Zinn is that he just doesn't like harp playing very much (what he is saying is that a harmonica player would sound better if he played piano or guitar instead or stopped playing harp and just sang instead--none of which impress me as very helpful or insightful suggestions to improve harmonica playing). BUT what the other guys in the vid are saying is really very valuable sage advice that I wholeheartedly agree with. But i think Zinn is full of shit and just should be honest and say he thinks harp players should learn a "real" instrument and sing instead of blowing harp. I thought Barrett was remarkably restrained, polite and diplomatic while he was listening to Zinn's nonsense. But the other guys in the band had very valuable insights to share.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 11:26 AM
Yeah tell the sax player, violinist, etc. to learn another instrument. What a pile of crap. Just learn music and be the best player and best musician you can be. Most musicians I've played with outside of college I was a better reader, improvisor, instrumentalist and I knew more harmony and theory than most, classical and Jazz. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Methinks they've had some bad experiences with harp players that give all others a bad name, at least in their eyes. This interview singles out harp players(and seemingly paints us as a majority of ignorant blowhards), but understandably so, as that's exactly what Dave Barrett was doing:trying to get advice from experienced players. I almost had to stop listening when Rusty Zinn said 'Don't be assholes'...but then again, maybe there's some large contingency of assholes who play harp wherever it is they play often. Shame. ---------- Todd, the conservatively liberal moderate of the moderators Eudora and Deep Soul
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 1:06 PM
These guys are all currently employed by Mark Hummel and are members of Mark Hummel and the Blues Survivors. They back all of the harp players at Hummel's Harp Blowouts. Rusty and Marty have been with Hummel for well over a decade. RW has been with him for several years as well.
Rusty Zinn is a very intelligent and articulate person. Over the years, he has performed with more harp players than visit this forum. He's learned his craft from some of the best players out there. His knowledge of music runs really deep.
He's learned the Blues firsthand from guys that really knew how to backup harp players like Luther Tucker, Robert Jr Lockwood and Dave Myers. He learned his lessons well. He's very skilled in Reggae having learned that genre from some of that genre's finest practitioners.
I've had the opportunity to hang with Rusty a bit. He's a really great guy. You may not like his message, but I really admire his honesty. As a harp player, I didn't take offense with it. Some of the best harp players that I've ever heard played more than one instrument. Some of his best advice was, "Don't be an asshole."
Non-singing harp players are a dime a dozen where we live. Starting to sing was some of the best advice that I ever got. It enables the player to play the music that they want to play. Personally, I enjoy being able to pick and choose the tunes that I want to do. It adds another dimension to what you can do as an artist. That's rarely a bad thing.
Marty Dodson's advice was awesome, too. Learn to like your sound and don't obsess over it. Make sure the other player in the band are watching the leader. RW is a bad ass bass player that is always in the pocket. He wants to feel the tempo. That means move or play so he can feel the groove.
When those guys talk, I listen. The list of harp players that they have played with is very long and their knowledge of the Blues genre is pretty deep. They are all fans of the music and when they play, they want it to sound good.
I've had the opportunity to play with these guys several times. Playing music with them is a really fun experience. They listen and always play the right thing. They are all really good guys to hang with. Some of you may think they are full of shit, but I value and respect their experience.
When Rusty Zinn can play like this I'll listen to his advice. Jimmy told me he thought reading was important for harmonica players. He was friends with Tommy Morgan they both worked the LA studio scene.
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Zinn, sorry. I'm sure they are nice guys. It just came off as a bit condescending, that's all. Plus, I shudder at stereotypes like 'most' harmonica players do this or that. Okay, off my soap box. ---------- Todd, the conservatively liberal moderate of the moderators Eudora and Deep Soul
This is the sidemans point of view. They want a frontman to direct them. If you don't know basic chord progression, how can you direct/communicate with them?
You can learn theory on a harp but,it is far easier to learn on a piano as the notes are all layed out to see.
Most players I know would benefit greatly from taking singing lessons. I worked hard at mine, and the overall sound is much better for it.
Most harp players HAVE to sing in order to get paying gigs. I am that rarest of musical commodities: A working harp player who doesn't sing. Gee, since i don't sing, (or play guitar, or tap dance), I wonder why i get paying gigs?
You know, it's really a shame Zinn wasn't around to give John Coltrane advice when Coltrane was alive. I mean, who knows how good Coltrane could have gotten on saxophone if he could have had the benefit of Zinn's sage counsel and learned to play guitar?
Zinn may be a great guitar player, great musician and great guy, but he doesn't know enough about harmonica to be giving advice about harp playing--apparently, he can only conceptualize theory in terms of chordal instruments like guitar and piano. The two bandleaders i work with who have advanced degrees in music can't play harp, but they both UNDERSTAND harp well enough to tell me what positions (they speak in terms of keys) will work best on certain tunes and when I need to use more than one harp on a particular tune and which harps to use. I suspect Zinn would have to use a guitar or keyboard to figure stuff like that out because that is what he is familiar with and understands. Certainly some basic keyboard knowledge makes everything a lot easier, but what i get from Zinn is that he just doesn't know enough about the instrument to be able to give useful suggestions about playing harmonica (or saxophone--R.I.P. John Coltrane).
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 12:25 PM
Tis funny. Most of the guys who are slagging off Zinn are the ones who claim to know lots of musical theory.
IMHO Zinn is asking us to learn basic theory, which learning a "chord" type instrument would do.
I also remember Buddha saying the same. There were no nae sayers then!
Most guys who play harp, including myself, play by ear. Most of the time I don't know what I'm playing, and rely on the guitarist to work out the chords for the rest of the band to follow. This is what Zinn is talking about.
I have now learnt and am continuing to learn theory.
Playing piano helped immensely.
Learning to sing, enabled me to play the music I wanted to. To start my own band.
I had plenty of work as a sideman, and can still get the occasional gig.
Barrett asks Zinn: "What things would you like to see harmonica players as a species work on?" Zinn's ridiculous answer: "I would like to see harmonica players work on their singing" This makes about as much sense as me advising Zinn to work on playing the Euphonium while standing on his head. USELESS advice. Zinn doesn't play the Euphonium and i don't sing. So wtf should i work on my singing when i could be doing something musically constructive?
Zinn is about as qualified to to be giving me advice about harp playing as i am to be giving him advice about euphonium playing and acrobatics. He probably could show me useful stuff if we were sitting at a keyboard, but the bandleaders i work with are able to tell me what to do ON MY INSTRUMENT. When they talk, I listen because they have something valid to say. Zinn is just bullshitting. I am willing to wager that if i asked Zinn what keys i can play in using an Eb harp he wouldn't know more than 3 or 4 and would probably tell me to sing instead. The bandleaders I work with would rattle off 6 different keys and would know which modes they correspond to.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 1:07 PM
most people talkin` crap are putting it on other people ...if you are playing the blues your singing,blues is a singing art form.it comes from singing field hollers and a ton of other soul expressions.on the instrument of your choise if you ain`t singing the blues then you don`t know the language....
The question posed by David Barrett was, "What would you like harmonica players as a general species to work on?" David specifically asked him to generalize. He didn't specifically ask them about the readers/contributors of Adam Gussow's MBH forum.
I guess I'm not seeing why some folks find this so darn offensive. Why does this rub some of y'all the wrong way?
Those guys have seen the best. They've seen the worst. They've seen everyone in between. Where does the average player fall? Where does David Barrett's average student fit on the spectrum? I'm not ripping on anyone's skills.
Some of David's students have no experience on the bandstand. Some have never played in a band. Others have a lot of experience. A few have played hundreds or thousands of gigs. One recently went to the IBC.
Consider the video in the context in which it was made and who is the target audience.
Additionally, working on singing is musically constructive.
You're right-on my low-volume work computer speakers, I think I missed the 'generalize' part. I apologize.
I still think there's a 'general' hard-on against harp players with these guys. I could be wrong.
As for singing, I think it's a good idea for anyone to learn, even as natural abilities and talent may differ in the results, for nothing else as yet another way to get your point across, even if you can't word it due to a lack of theory knowledge. ---------- Todd, the conservatively liberal moderate of the moderators Eudora and Deep Soul
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 1:52 PM
"Consider the video in the context in which it was made and who is the target audience. Additionally, working on singing is musically constructive."
Look, i don't want to obsess about this, but even if we acknowledge that most of Barret's audience are relatively new and inexperienced players Zinn's advice appears to be even more absurd. A guy who is struggling to reach basic competence on harp ain't going to progress any faster by being made to learn guitar and/or piano first, (even though some basic keyboard knowledge is an asset to any musician).
True, working on vocals is good ear training and ear training is a good thing for any musician. But I've been playing harp live, on stage in public for over 30 years and I haven't taken a lead vocal yet. I can sing a little back up if absolutely necessary and stay on key. But the less i sing, the happier i am and you can't sing and play harp at the same time anyway.
hvyj, I'm willing to bet that singing has probably come in handy, despite not being done as a lead vocalist. I am sure at some point you have sang a verse, a melody line, a passage to another player to get the point across-and I bet they got it. We(who sing) take that for granted. I know several players of different instruments who WON'T sing, even in that context. ---------- Todd, the conservatively liberal moderate of the moderators Eudora and Deep Soul
Wow, I haven't read through all the responses, but I certainley didn't want to start a shite storm in here.
I think learning/dabbling with another instrument can only help you as a harp player...especially guitar/drums. I play guitar as well, and it totally helps to be able to look at the guitar players hands and know what he/she is doing.Ever been to a blues jam and someone calls out a key like "D",and you hear "G"? It's a HUGE advantage to be able to indenitfy the root chord by the shape or even the way it sounds.
Todd - as a harp player who has met and played with these guys on more than one occasion, I can tell you that I've never felt any anti-harp player attitude from any of those guys.
I have several harp playing friends (both amateur and professional) that have nothing but the highest regard for all three of those guys.
Joe-I'm sure you're right. I'm reading too much into it, and hanging onto what I heard that I didn't agree with. It's Friday afternoon, getting late. I'm still at work, sans beer. I need to remedy this. :-) ---------- Todd, the conservatively liberal moderate of the moderators Eudora and Deep Soul
Todd - All of those guys have worked and continue to work with the top blues harp players around. They could choose not to play with harp players if they so wished and still be very busy with gigs. So therefore any perceived anti-harp feeling anyone reads into it is just plain silly in my opinion.
hvyj - John, you seem to be on some illogical moral high horse over something which Rusty Zinn said. I honestly can't understand why. All of Rusty's points were well observed, general comments which would benefit the majority of harp players. I think maybe you need to calm down and look at this with a cold heart and be more objective. Listen to what's really being said by him and not try to read into it something which isn't there.
Kingley, I don't know these guys from...well, Adam(although i have actually met him). I've been called silly before, I'm sure. Rushed judgement on the end of a hectic week. Some high-quality pho ga and a couple of brews in my gut, and I've mellowed down easy. Peace! ---------- Todd, the conservatively liberal moderate of the moderators Eudora and Deep Soul
Zinn is 100% right. If you are asked to sit in, it sure is good to know that you don't have to worry whether they understand you if you say "one sharp" instead of them thinking you said C when you meant G. Or "one flat" for F and so on and so on. You won't learn that by trying to be the overblow king. Knowing your way around that extra C instrument helps. Especially piano, guitar, or bass. Plus it FORCES a harp player to learn timing. He may have all the rhythm in the world (re: LW Jacobs who was a very good dancer, but his timing stunk) I quit the harmonica for 25 years..from 1965 to 1990..first time back on stage with one was when Rod Piazza asked me to come up at the old Blues Harbor Club here in 1989. I did a couple of tunes and he and I ended up doing a "blow out" together on the stage. Debbie was dumbfounded when I told her that was the first time I had played one of the things for more than 5 minutes in 25 years! I had devoted my attention to bass and learned to read. Made a killing...and learned what the deal was all about. It really helped when I started back up with the harp again...I discovered that I really didn't know shit about music in the "other life" before getting trained with that bass. "Old Grouchy"
Todd - if you have seen Mark Hummel or own any of his recordings, you have those guys play. They've played with: Carey Bell, Billy Branch, James Cotton, Jerry Portnoy, Steve Guyger, RJ Mischo, Kim Wilson, Gary Smith, Rod Piazza, Sugar Blue, Dennis Grueling, Mojo Buford, Willie Smith and anyone else who has played at one of Mark Hummel's Blowouts in the past decade. If you haven't heard of any of those guys and you like the Blues, they are worth listening to.
They've also played with Lee Oskar, Carlos DelJunco and Norton Buffalo. ---------- The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 6:20 PM
I just want to back up what Joe said - we live in the same area and I too have had a chance to hear these guys and talk to them many times, and to play with them when I'm really lucky - because it is a privilege and honor to play with them. Rusty is one of the key "go to" guys for the pro level blues harp players. He is a nice guy and isn't anti-harp. But just like other instruments, there are a lot of harp wankers out there. Harp maybe worse, because you have to know a lot less to start playing it. Most beginning to intermediate harp players, in my experience, think they are better than they are. This is because so much of what distinguishes a good harp player from an average one is SO subtle - and it takes playing and learning the instrument for quite a while to hear what makes them great.
Dave is widely heralded as one of the best harp teachers on the planet - an opinion I share. I took lessons from him for 5 years. He KNOWS his audience is largely beginning to intermediate players, although he coaches plenty of very good players as well. I'm quite suer in making this video he asked these guys to aim their comments at relatively new players.
The advice about singing: Singing forces you to lead the band. Now you have to know the key, communicate the groove, signal breaks, know the structure, hand off solos - and all of these skills have certainly helped me to LISTEN better when I'm backing someone else. It also teaches you how to take the damn thing out of your mouth once in a while.
To paraphrase an old quote, I'm sure that "95% of harmonica players think they're better than average"
I agree with Rusty on this. Rusty is a great guitarist for backing up harp players, and I've seenhim several times, including on a few Kim Wilson blues tours, including one where he's paired up with one of the best guitarists around for backing up harp players and that's Junior Watson and together, they both played excellent COMPLIMENTARY rhythm parts that always fit, and often time guitar players, especially those you see in the vast majority of open jams are truly horrible rhythm players.
Learning to play another instrument is a distinct advantage, not just for learning scales, theory, chord structure, etc., but you also learn how to communicate with people who play other instruments in a way that they can understand that's outside of theory, like for a drummer, how you want the cymbols, snare, or bass drums to be played and what you're looking for because too often just telling them what recordings to listen to just isn't enough and often doesn't get to the point quick enough.
I've been on the road with two former Muddy Waters band members, Jimmy Rogers and Luther Guitar Junior JOhnson, and knowing how to play some guitar clearly helped me out. With Jimmy, he didn't scream out what key he was playing in, but just showed where his hands and the fingers were on the guitar fretboard and knowing the fingering pattern for the chords, I could see what key he wanted wheras a harp player who didn't learn guitar would be totally puzzled.
With Luther, another one who would often not tell you the key, often times would from song to song without telling you, somethimes as many as 7 in a row, but knowing the fretboard and fingering, I kept my eyes on him and could figure things out instantly wheras another harp player without that knowledge would be freaking out and grabbing every harp in their case until they found the right one, often by the time the tune has ended.
The thing about singing is that it also, when you get lessons, you learn proper breathing, which also is a huge help for harp players and you also have to learn to lead a band and how many times I've seen harp players who can't count in a tune or have terrible time is unbelievable. Even if you're not fronting the band and you get a solo, learning some of the things of being a front person like directing the band, giving signals, calling the time, taking TOTAL charge of the band especially when you want to use dynamics is important and in many open jams, you don't see dynamics used by anyone, including harp players because they never learn to seize control of what's happening.
@ Hvyj --- You should consider yourself quite lucky to have musicians to help you out that way and also to be able to just do sideman gigs because they are few and far in between in most areas and you may be in an area where there aren't many harp players around to begin with. In blues, the single most prestigious harp sideman job ended in 1983 when Muddy Waters passed away and that was a big signal for harp players that they need to learn to front. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I am in agreement with Bob and Joe-I became friends with Rusty as he was working together with Dennis Gruenling on some private projects. I was also introduced to RW and Marty through my friendship with Rusty and Dennis. These three are the backbone for all of the recent Harmonica Blowouts,dating back to 2007. I have the utmost respect for all of them-as musicians and friends. I was a guitar player and a drummer before I settled on playing harp. As Bob states,I never had a problem picking up the key-I just looked where the guitar or bass player had his fingers on the fretboard. Also,I began singing,which allowed ME to front the band-not relying on someone else to call the shots. The are only a few non-singing harp players I can listen to-Howard Levy,Dennis Gruenling and Jerry Portnoy come to mind. Musical degrees on paper don't matter for playing blues-if you have to rely on someone telling YOU what keys to play in,then it shows you have little or no musical knowledge. Blues is not complicated music-thats why blues jams are so popular-one,four five with an occasional Rhumba or funk thrown in-easy to follow,keys of A,E,C or D usually-easy for the guitar and bass players as well. Rusty is one of the top blues guitar players out there-and a bad ass reggae player too. I am proud to have Rusty,RW and Marty as friends.
I have much respect for all of these guys, and MOST of the advice. However I will add my 2 cents. "Learn another chordal instrument" The Harp can be a "chordal" instrument. Most harp players don't know how to comp, using chords and trills. Using these in the "Background" can many times enhance the music...ya just gotta know when.
And this one kills me (although I have to agree at times).... Harp players need to learn how to play less....WOW.....substitute "guitar" for "harp", and you have another true statement. ----------
i dont think its bad advice to tell a musician they should know when to play less but to insist that harmonica players learn another instrument is kind of unfair. i dont know everything about music theory yet but im learning, i dont really need a piano. a harmonica player could arppegiate pretty much any chord they wanted to, you just have to know what they are..
learning to sing is definantly good advice. and for me anyway, learning to sing has been alot of fun..
@changin' - You really need to LISTEN properly! Rusty Zinn never "insisted" that harmonica players learn another instrument. He was asked by David Barrett who is a mutli-instrumentalist and one of the worlds foremost blues music teachers (and not just for harmonica) what he would "like to see harmonica players as a general species work on".
He replied that he would like to see harmonica players learn another instrument (preferably guitar or piano). He was merely pointing out the plain simple truth that MOST harmonica players don't know SQUAT about music theory. I'm gonna take a wild guess here and presume that you are:
1. Very young 2. Quite inexperienced 3. Possibly suffering from that teenage trait of selective hearing.
My advice would be to stop ranting about what you think Rusty said and listen to what he REALLY said. All of those three guys are giving good honest advice that we should ALL listen too. If David Barrett didn't think so then he wouldn't have:
1. Asked their opinions 2. Interviewed them in the first place 3. Listened to what they said. 4. Put it up on his website for all the world to see.
Now if by some slim chance you know more about music and harmonica playing than David Barrett then I would happily apologise. However the reality is that I KNOW you don't. In fact most of the players on this forum (including myself, BBQ Bob, Greg Heumann, Joe L and possibly even Adam Gussow) don't know as much as David Barrett.
Now please do yourself one of the biggest musical favours you will ever do yourself in your life, and just listen and learn from these seasoned pro players.
Guys like Rusty Zinn , RW Grigsby, Marty Dodson, David Barrett, Adam Gussow , Jason Ricci, Rick Estrin, Mark Hummel, PT Gazell, BBQ Bob, Rod Piazza, Joe Filisko, Magic Dick, John Nemeth, Howard Levy etc, etc. Who have their advice posted on the internet for all to listen too. They all have decades of wisdom and learning under their belts and believe it or not are actually trying to help guys like you and me, by imparting their advice for free (in most cases). I can promise you that if you heed it, it will serve you well in the future musically.
@bbqbob: Well, there are plenty of harp players where I live, and all the others who work regularly sing and front their own bands and play blues. My band is a blues band. My sideman gig is with a band that plays a wide variety of styles, including some blues, but not primarily blues.
Anyway, would learning guitar, learning piano or learning to sing make me a better musician and improve my harmonica playing? Sure. Would getting a music degree from Julliard or Berklee make me a better musician and improve my harmonica playing? Absolutely.
Are any of these things good practical advice to harp players in general who want to improve their fundamental harmonica playing? No. Although none of these things are bad ideas, IMHO they are silly and impractical suggestions for the intended audience.
Note that Zinn didn't say take vocal lessons--he suggested that harp players in general should "work on their singing" in order to improve their harp playing. This is silly. Believe me, I wouldn't be getting any paying gigs as a singer. Like i said before, IMHO, most harp players who work have to sing either because their harp playing isn't good enough for them to get paid just to play harp or because they can't get hired at all and need to front their their own band in order to gig.
I consider myself extremely fortunate to be able to work with and get guidance from such high caliber musicians. Interestingly, both gigs evolved from my sitting in with jazz bands (each bandleader also has a jazz band). I'm no jazz player, but these guys understand enough about harp to be able to select jazz material to perform that was capable of being played on a diatonic without OBs. It was my ability to get around ON THE HARMONICA playing selected jazz material and my practical understanding of basic music theory that got these guys interested in working with me in non-jazz bands. of course, both of them liked my playing anyway. One bandleader thought he could get a better flow of gigs if he also had a blues band, so we formed a blues band. And we get work. The other bandleader likes what I add to the wide variety of music his non-jazz band plays and hires me for some (but not all) of that band's gigs. Both bandleaders play guitar and don't expect me to know how to do so.
Certainly, being able to play some keys would be an asset to any musician, but the guys I play with prefer to work without a keyboard. In each band the guitar player and i are featured soloists and also play fills. Both bandleaders have remarked that keys "take up a lot of sonic real estate" and the reality is that they and i have more room to improvise more freely without keys in the band. So, doubling on keys would not be a practical option for me with either band even if i knew how to play keys.
I liked Zinn's "don't be an asshole" advice. I absolutely agreed with everything that the drummer and bass player were saying. i still think all the rest of what Zinn said is impractical and silly--not wrong, per se, but not particularly helpful. Perhaps I was mistaken to attribute a snide (learn to play a "real" instrument) attitude to him. But the bandleaders I work with are consistently able to give me much better PRACTICAL suggestions specifically about how to improve what I play ON THE HARMONICA, that I find it difficult to take Zinn seriously. Not that what he is saying is wrong. It's not. He is just unable to relate his musical ideas specifically to harp. He may know a lot about music but he doesn't seem to know enough about harmonica to be able to give PRACTICAL advice about harmonica playing. So he thinks we should learn something he does know something about. Having worked with good musicians who don't play harp but who understand harp well enough to be able to apply their musical knowledge and performance experience in the form of harmonica specific instructions and suggestions, I'm sorry, but it's just really difficult for me to take this cat seriously.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2011 9:38 AM
"Note that Zinn didn't say take vocal lessons--he suggested that harp players in general should "work on their singing" in order to improve their harp playing. This is silly. Believe me, I wouldn't be getting any paying gigs as a singer. Like i said before, IMHO, most harp players who work have to sing either because their harp playing isn't good enough for them to get paid just to play harp or because they can't get hired at all and need to front their their own band in order to gig."
@hvyj - Rusty Zinn's advice on singing was good solid advice because:
1. Being able to sing opens more doors for most harmonica players. 2. Singing uses many of the same techniques that are required by harmonica players to achieve good tone. 3. It helps with breathing and general posture. Which in turn improves your harmonica playing. 4. It teaches you to learn some music structure (verse, chorus). 5. It can aid in learning how to phrase in a musically pleasing manner off a vocal line when playing harmonica. 6. Generally speaking it will improve your chances of playing the music that you want to play. By allowing you to call the shots more often, when song choices are made. 7. It's fun to do and you don't have to be aiming at singing in public to do it. Even just doing it at home will improve your harmonica playing in the long term.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2011 9:17 AM
@Kingley: of course you are correct. BUT if I were a beginner coming to you for suggestions to improve my harp playing would taking vocal lessons be among the first 10 suggestions/instructions you would have for me?
Personally I never WANTED to sing and still don't. I just play harp. As a purely practical matter i am forced to sing a little back up in my blues band, which is not the first time circumstances have required me to do that, but I'm perfectly content to be purely an instrumentalist. I like to think I've been able to develop s certain level of competence on harp without learning to sing, so i don't consider learning to sing to be particularly important. Maybe not a bad idea, but not among the first 10 or 20 suggestions I'd have for a beginning harp player who wants to improve their playing.
kingley what are you talkin about man i wasnt even ranting about anything i wasnt offended by the video in the slightest, i enjoyed watching it and listening to the advice and certainly everything said can be taken into consideration. the only point i was ever trying to make was that you can learn music theory and just play harmonica if you want to. i never accused anyone of not giving honest advice and i never even showed the slightest disrespect toward any of the people speaking. most of the advice givin was very good but i personally disagree with one thing the guitarist said. im allowed to have an oppinion on the matter trust me. of course theres nothing wrong with people learning other instruments thats great, but its not necessary for being a better harmonica player, and me personally im actually thinking about giving up playing the guitar. the harmonica is way more fun. but thats just my oppinion....
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2011 9:32 AM
@hvyj - Yeah I know what you mean. I was the same way for years. I had zero interest in singing. I also had no interest in playing in front of other people either come to that matter.
Nowadays though my top ten list of advice to a beginner (harmonica player) would be something like:
1. Learn to get good clean single notes. 2. Learn to get a good well rounded tone. 3. Learn to bend all the notes on the harp correctly. 4. Learn as much music theory as you possibly can. 5. Learn to really listen to music. 6. Play with other musicians as much as possible. 7 . Practice, practice, practice. 8. If you intend on playing in a band or going to jam nights then learn to sing. 9. Concentrate on one style of music and learn it in depth before progressing to another. 10. If it stops being fun. Then stop doing it.
If I had done those things years ago. I would have gotten where I was going a lot quicker.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2011 9:44 AM
well I'd put something about embouchure before # 8 and something about diaphragmatic air production before #8.
Personally, I never found my opportunities to play at jams restricted or limited because I don't sing. Is vocal ability an asset if you want to be in band? Absolutely. Is being able to sing necessary to be able to play harp?
all this nit picking and getting upset about what these guys said is probably why most pros don't do these forums. You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. I wonder how many of the complainers are not satified with their current musical universe? These pros have given up most things that people with regular day jobs take as a god given right. I see a lot of medicore players on these forums that think they are much better than they are. They want to be considered a great yet never leave the comfort of thier day job lives. Back in the day of live music they would get a reality check putting it out on a stage with some of the real deal pros instead of doing it with the keyboard :-) I don't play for a living anymore so really don't care if I lose a fan but these pros need to be concerned with this. If these forums were kinder and showed more respect for these guys we would probably see more of them sharing on places like this. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Hey Walter, if you are talking to me, I consider myself a hobbyist. i don't pretend to be a great player or anything and i am delighted with my current musical situation.
I like playing live with other musicians and do it several times a week (more jams than gigs). But the guys i do play paying gigs with are all full time professional musicians. I'm no pro but I've spent enough time with pros to be able to recognizance bullshit when i hear it and Zinn is full of shit--probably bullshitting because he doesn't know enough about harp to offer any substantive information.
hvyj: My response is not aimed specifically at you but at something I see that happens a lot on the internet forums. These guys in the video have played the gamut of gigs and are just sharing thier take on things. I would thing hobbiests would be excited to hear their views which are based on years of living in a lifestyle that hobbiests could never experience. I find it facinating when a pro in some art form, that I am not a pro in, shares their experiences. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@hvyj - John, please stop with this insistence that Rusty Zinn is "full of shit". Your last post just confirms that your ego is off the chart. Rusty Zinn has been one of the top blues guitarists backing harmonica players for decades. The list of players he has performed with is like a list of who's who in the harmonica world. You don't get jobs like that if you don't know your stuff. He probably knows more about harp than many of the players on this forum do. He knows exactly how to back a harmonica player to perfection. He has been around the best blues harp players in the world for a long, long time. You can't help but pick up knowledge in those situations. Plus of course he's a very musically knowledgeable guy and I'll bet a pound to a penny that he's spent lots of time discussing the harmonica and music with the top blues harp players around. Now please, please, please stop making a fool of yourself with your endless diatribe on Rusty and show some respect for a fellow musician.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2011 10:54 AM
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 12:06 PM
