Sausagescoffer
16 posts
Feb 17, 2011
2:03 PM
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I have over the last month or so picked up four Crossovers but am concerned about the finish on the combs.
I realise that bamboo is naturally quite impervious to moisture, but, my G appears to have a thick coat of lacquer on it and is very smooth when playing, whereas my Bb is rough to the touch - almost as though it has no sealant. It almost seems to grab at my tongue when playing chords etc.
The other two Crossovers are somewhere inbetween these, one smooth'ish, the other leaning toward that "Friday afternoon" finish!
I know Hohner have had their fair share of quality control issues over the years, but is this indicative of where they are in 2011?
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HarpNinja
1118 posts
Feb 17, 2011
2:36 PM
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In the last two months, I've seen around two dozen Crossovers...I think, but haven't asked, that since switching to blister packs, the finish isn't as glossy. That being said, the less noticeable finish on some of the combs is near identical to what I've seen of several bamboo combs from harpcombs.com.
Hetrick goes to great lengths to seal their combs as well, so I haven't worried about it for even a split second. I, for one, prefer the matte finish over the glossy. I haven't tried it, but something like Bullseye Shellac from Zinsier would probably work to make them glossier. I am just guessing though...and I have no idea if it would tint them or not.
I was advised to not try and sand then reseal the combs. While I think this is more of a precaution than a concern, it came from someone who helped design the harp. I have some from Hohner to experiment with, but haven't had time.
I hadn't been too into cosmetics for my personal harps, but I LOVE the look of the bamboo. I've picked up seven MBs with bamboo combs (all stock reedplates) to use with my blues band. One day I will set them up, but I haven't had time.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/1/11
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Rubes
237 posts
Feb 17, 2011
2:44 PM
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Just a thought Scoffer, is the grain 'angle' consistent with all combs? Maybe the tongue grabber has the 'end grain'??? When sealing wood, the end grain absorbs a heck of a lot more......
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Sausagescoffer
18 posts
Feb 17, 2011
2:55 PM
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That could be the case, Rubes. It's a shame 'cos the harps really are great.
I would have thought that this sort of thing should be picked up at the point of manufacture and rejcted so that their high end MB has a decent comb in it EVERY TIME!
Ho hum....suppose I'll be ordering a custom comb or two at some point.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2011 2:55 PM
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Sausagescoffer
19 posts
Feb 17, 2011
2:59 PM
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HarpNinja - I have ordered a couple of Suzuki combs from Harpcombs.com and one is bamboo, so it will be interesting to see how that stands up against the Crossover combs I already have.
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HarpNinja
1119 posts
Feb 17, 2011
3:06 PM
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I would see if you have an issue...and if you do, I would contact Hohner about it. Chances are there will be no problems.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/1/11
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chromaticblues
610 posts
Feb 18, 2011
5:57 AM
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Some of the Crossover combs don't have any finnish or very little. You can sand the top and bottom flat. There is no need to finnish that part, but the mouthpiece part you most certainly can because I have and it works very well. Hohner has put a few different finnishes on them. Some are really nice and some or almost nonexistant. If you have one that feels like rough wood. Thats because it is. Just sand the top and bottom flat and apply a finnish with a little finnish paint brush to the mouthpiece. The real small paint brushes like the kind in a kids paint set. I don't know what they are called, but they work well for that. Just put the harp on the back so the mouthpiece is facing up and be careful not to get any in the harp.
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HarpNinja
1121 posts
Feb 18, 2011
6:30 AM
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FWIW, I've found that the combs come pretty flat - in most instances flat enough not to mess with. However, the draw plates, especially by the 1 draw, should be flat sanded.
Just hold the harp up to the light and see if there are any gaps. Like I said, you can almost always get a complete seal by just sanding the draw plate as the rivets are usually the issue. YMMV
Mostly, I am just again suggesting that if you have an issue with the comb swelling, you should contact Hohner and let them know. I have a few gigs left this month and will be using almost all Crossovers. I'll let you know if I encounter any problems, but so far I've had no issues.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/1/11
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chromaticblues
611 posts
Feb 18, 2011
7:12 AM
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Not all the combs are flat! If any are not flat then the combs warrant atention. For anyone that doesn't know what I'm talking about. Take the harp apart and put the harp comb on a perfectly flat surface. I use a window I removed from basement, you can buy leveling plates. They are expensive and aren't anymore flat than a glass window is. OK I use different grit paper for different things, but for sake of proving a point, use 400 grit paper. Put a file lightly wrapped with electrical tape on top of the comb and lightly just make three or four passes back and forth. Now stop blow off the dust and go to a light. The shinny surface is what the paper didn't get. I invite everyone that owns a Crossover to do this then come back and post your finding!
They are not perfectly flat and some are not even close! Its not a big deal though. Just go back and keep doing it untill most of the shinny gloss is gone. Keep in mind if the gloss is some place on the comb that isn't going to effect air tightness then don't worry about it.
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HarpNinja
1123 posts
Feb 18, 2011
7:25 AM
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I said pretty flat...and that most times flat sanding the draw plate is enough to get the harp to pass a light test.
In the context of the OP, if he is concerned with the finish and warping, then sanding the comb excessively would likely create a greater probability of warping. I was also told by one of the designers of the Crossover to not try to sand and refinish the bamboo combs.
I am not saying flat sanding the combs isn't a good idea (I've experiemented with this with not issues at all), but there are other ways of intervening if you are concerned with an air tight seal. I can only think of one Crossover where simply sanding the draw plate and making sure it was level (as well as the blow plate) wasn't enough to make the harp pass a visual test of leaks - holding the harp to a bright light and checking to see if there was any visible light in the chamber of each hole where the comb meets the draw and blow plates.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/1/11
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2011 7:25 AM
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chromaticblues
613 posts
Feb 18, 2011
7:38 AM
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Yeah I agree with most of that Mike, but I have seen some that were bad! I'm not bashing Crossovers or you. I just have had different findings thats all. As Mike said You should contact Hohner service Dept.. They are usually very helpful. If you explain yourself politly. I'm sure they will help. I agree with your beef. I shouldn't happen and sell harps for that much money, but I have not once had them tell me No! I'm sorry we can't help.
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Sausagescoffer
20 posts
Feb 18, 2011
10:21 AM
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My issue is with the rough feel to the finish of the front of the comb, not swelling. As I said in my OP, bamboo is pretty impervious to moisture. I have had NO swelling from any of my Crossover combs.
I just don't like the rough texture on my tongue - this grade of harp warrants better attention to detail than that....IMHO.
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chromaticblues
615 posts
Feb 18, 2011
10:37 AM
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@Sausagescoffer
If you want some help I'll tell you a very easy way to make it the smoothest harp you own and you don't have to take it apart. I have been thru the same thing!
Kevin Baker
sbaker60@cox.net
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Sausagescoffer
21 posts
Feb 18, 2011
2:36 PM
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chromaticblues - thanks for your offer. I have sent you an email.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
566 posts
Feb 22, 2011
6:23 AM
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400 grit sanding cloth will fix this. Run it down to about 1200 grit for super smooth.
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"There are only two things money can't buy - true love and homegrown tomatoes." - Lewis Grizzard
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MP
1440 posts
Feb 22, 2011
9:06 AM
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don't mean to hijack the thread, but harpninja mentioned something that i've wondered about for some time now.
the draw plates sometimes have a gap by the 1 draw between the plate and comb. sometimes it extends all the way to the 3 draw. you could throw a cat through there.
i knooooow the plate is not flat.
my question is this,
How did it get that way? why always the draw plate? why always the one draw?
david payne?
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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Sausagescoffer
25 posts
Feb 22, 2011
9:09 AM
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For the sake of repeating myself, I am not worried about the fit of the plates to the comb - not an issue for the 4 Crossovers I have. It is the front of the tines that is the issue and I am certainly NOT gonna sand those things!
FWIW, Hohner want me to send them the two combs in question at my cost and then they will send replacements. I am a bit pissed off about that. Having already shelled out to buy them I feel paying for them myself to go back to Hohner is a little insulting! It's not so much the cost, but the pricipal. I think they should send me two new combs with a pre-paid evelope which I can use to return the combs. I appreciate they are probably wary of some individuals trying to get free combs, but I simply want what I paid for - Hohner high end harps with properly finished combs!! Not too much to ask for, is it? So much for customer service....
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
571 posts
Feb 22, 2011
6:02 PM
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Sausage, I know that is a pain in the ass, but it is standard operating procedure for everybody. You always have to mail stuff back in, it's a pretty universal thing with warranties. Feel free to be pissed, though, it is your right, but it is nothing unusual.
On the draw plate thing. I've never noticed them being that bad. One difference in the draw plate is the draw plate is usually threaded for the screws, so the screw head is on the blow side. Thus, the blow side is usually held down better, because the screw head distributes the torque over a larger area of the reedplate. This is the argument people make for nails, they distribute that pressure more evenly.
OR, it's just how the reedplates are bent. I like em flat myself. Now imagine we're talking about reedplates just laying on the comb, not bolted down... they are usually bent so that the middle of the reedplate would touch, while the ends would be raised a little bit. That would be concave, right? If the bend was the opposite of that, convex (right?) where the ends would be touching and the middle raised
OR, probably the most likely, the comb itself isn't flat.
Reedplates are almost never flat themselves. When your comb is flat, you at least have a fighting chance.
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"There are only two things money can't buy - true love and homegrown tomatoes." - Lewis Grizzard
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2011 6:03 PM
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chromaticblues
629 posts
Feb 23, 2011
5:25 AM
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I like your way of thinking Dave! I biuld all my Marine Bands with the nail that came out of it. Why?
Because it works very well. I don't know why people think they have to get inside their harp all the time? Harmonicas are made for playing. Modify it when its brand new, put it together, work the bugs out and play it! All you have to do is retune slightly once in a while, but you don't have to take it apart to do that. A harmonica will naturally seal its self up. when you take it apart your undoing that. Yes it will be cleaner, but it won't play as well!
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HarpNinja
1128 posts
Feb 23, 2011
6:50 AM
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Shipping for those combs would be a couple bucks...I know that isn't what you think is ideal, but again, pretty standard practice.
Regarding the combs in general, I have no complaints and after receiving a few more Hetrick combs, including bamboo, and I find the finish consistent with the newer Crossovers - what you'd call rough.
I have no idea how many people have a similar issue as you, but I don't see it much differently than any other combs...they are what they are and if they are a deal breaker, there are other options and harp models out there.
I would suggest getting some shellac and just painting the tines or sending them back to Hohner or trying the MB Deluxe instead. We all have our preferences, like how I extremely dislike the feel of MB combs on the 1896 harps. That with the sharp reedplates are a turn off I either work around or get rid of by using different harps.
Knowing the Crossover demand and how difficult it is for Hohner to keep them in stock, let alone have spare parts like combs lying around, I think their offer is very reasonable.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/1/11
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Sausagescoffer
27 posts
Feb 23, 2011
8:58 AM
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I don't believe taking the combs out of two Crossovers and mailing them overseas and waiting for replacements and then putting them back together is "reasonable".
What is reasonable is for the combs to be finished to the same high standard. Two crap combs out of four is NOT ACCEPTABLE....IMHO!!
I think I'll head back to Seydel 1847's for future purchases. There is a principal here - Hohner haven't even offered to cover my postage costs. When I have received incorrect harps from suppliers (it has happened twice in the last 12 months - two different companies), both offered to refund the return postage immediately. Only pennies, but they were clearly interested in providing a first class service to their customer....alas, more than can be said for Hohner.
I will improve the finish myself, using the method chromaticblues has kindly suggested to me.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2011 8:59 AM
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HarpNinja
1130 posts
Feb 23, 2011
9:13 AM
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Are they not finished to a high standard or not finished to your standard? There is also a difference between being sent the wrong product and being sent a product you don't like.
It is totally the norm for products to change over time...even within the harp world. The Harp Commander has changed, the LW Harp Attack, the Marine Band in general, HarpGear amps...changes are made to products all the time. I am not saying that is "right" but it is the norm.
Honestly, this seems be be more of an issue with your expectations than the quality of the product. That is totally fair to have your opinion and not buy from them in the future.
While I think your dislike of the combs and decision to go with a different harp in the future is a reasonable conclusion, some of the above statements seem a little unfair. You're stating it is a quality control issue and the combs are defective. I think it what has happened is they have changed how they shellac the combs and you don't care for it. Others like myself, like the new combs more.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/23/11
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Sausagescoffer
28 posts
Feb 23, 2011
9:25 AM
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I do not believe anything I have said is unfair. I am an unhappy customer, that's all - I am entitled to my opinion - you to yours.
I am unhappy about a VERY rough comb that grabs at my tongue when playing. This is totally the opposite to two other Crossovers I have, a fourth being somewhere between the two. If that's the way Hohner now finish these combs it is a retrograde step, IN MY OPINION. And it's a shame, 'cos I really love the Crossover....but not this different finish to the combs.
I am gonna quit whining now and get on with some harpin'.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2011 9:26 AM
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HarpNinja
1160 posts
Mar 02, 2011
7:04 AM
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FWIW, I did some Crossover comb experimentation trying to alleviate this very issue and have been successful in doing so with out making the comb look obviously modified or discolored. I also carried this over to the other Marine Band combs with success.
I liked the results enough that I'll now go through the process on all Crossover and MBD combs. The tines are smoother and the rest of the comb can remain matte or have a glossy finish.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/24/11
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