There have been a couple of threads over the last few days that got me thinking. It may sound strange but hear me out and see if this makes sense or I am just crazy. The ones I am talking about are the threads about the future of cutom harps and the one about classic cars. Let me try to explain. It starts with the overblow. The obsession with it. The quest for it. The struggle with it.... I have been playing a few years and dont overblow. To be honest I have never really needed to. Well last night I gave in. I opened up one of my Manjis, lowered the reeds a bit, and about 15 minutes later I had a pretty clear 6 overblow. I used some videos from Adam and others as instructions. It wasnt easy, but wasnt too hard either. Once I did it I realized I will never use it when I play my diatonics. I just dont have a need for it. I re-gapped my Manji like I had it before and Full scale I will continue to use my chromatics. Now let me tie this together. When I was about 18 my best friend, who was VERY mechanical and great with cars, bought used 1978 Chevy Monza. Not the greatest car and it was in rough shape. He spent all of his free time for almost a year working on it. He fixed transmission, rebuilt the engine, custom exhaust, suspension, the works... He wanted to bad to make this a nice sports car, and he did a damn good job. I on the other hand went out and bought a 1985 Camaro Z28 and drove it that day. I am not knocking him for all of his efforts, he enjoyed doing it and thats great. I am not knocking anyone for trying to play a diatonic as a chromatic, if you enjoy it, thats great. I guess it just seems to me that a lot of players on here are trying to master a skill that is not necissary right now. They might be better off working on playing a diatonic as it was made for. Once they master it in 5 to 10 years they can start working on overblows and other fun, challanging this. This is just my personal opinion and not at all a negative statement about those who overblow, or try to!
"I guess it just seems to me that a lot of players on here are trying to master a skill that is not necissary right now."
The thing about overblows is that they are a relatively new technique (yes - I know about Blues Birdhead in the 30s). The popularity of the overblow technique seems to be linked to the internet. Pre-internet they weren't discussed much - the only real reference available was Richard Hunter's Jazz Harp book. A few figured them out themselves, a few were lucky enough to be taught them. The generation of harp players that I belong to - those of us who learned from Tony Glover's book and nowt else- didn't overblow.
Then the internet forums appeared: suddenly the technique was demystified and we had a choice: add it to our repetoire or dismiss it.
A player learning now has literally hundreds of books, DVDs, online clips and millions of forum posts to pore over. It's an amazing illustration of the complete upheaval in how people study and research.
As boundaries of knowledge expand (as they do in many sciences for instance) educationalists try to incorporate that new knowledge into the current curriculum. It doesn't become a whole new course to study after you've got your qualifications.
I think anyone who has got to grips with bends should be working on overblows. It just makes sense to learn related skills together.
For me overblows were 'bolted on' to what I had learned many years ago. Aside from dismissing them completely, I had no other choice.
"They might be better off working on playing a diatonic as it was made for. "
I doubt anyone on this forum plays the music the harmonica was designed for - it certainly wasn't blues if that is what you are inferring
Let me clarify because I can see how what I said may have come across wrong. I am mostly speaking of new and developing players. Most overblow questions come from very new players who hear the term and feel as they need to overblow to be a good player. In my opinion you do not. I do like your point of learning overblows along with bends, that is an interesting thought. My opinion is to master the bends first, but you may have a point. My comment about playing a diatonic wasnt towards style of music, it was towards technique. People are making major modifications to their harps to acheive overblows and in a lot of cases it is effecting the sound negatively in other areas. I think I could fill the entire page by listing all of the top blues players of the past that NEVER used an overblow.
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 5:38 AM
I too didn't know what an overblow was until I had been playing, totally self-taught, for 19 years. I've heard players new and older since then use them in their music-some seamlessly to where I can hardly detect their different timbre, others not so much. The OB/OD notes fill in some missing blanks in scales on a regular diatonic harp. Their necessity is arguable(especially in a blues context), since as you say, players since the beginning of recorded musical history have gotten by just fine without them. Why? Because there was never a perceived need to play chromatically on a diatonic harp. You'd use the purpose-built chromatic harmonica for that. I personally just haven't deemed them a priority to take the time and learn, or re-tweek all my harps and technique just to accomodate them. It is a personal choice. Wanna play like the Walters, Kim Wilson, etc.? You can probably ignore them. Wanna emulate Jason Ricci, Chris Michalek, Adam Gussow, et al.? Buckle down and include them in your playing from the start, or take the time and effort to add them if you've already been playing a while...the choice is yours.
Oh, and it's not how many notes you have available to you that make music-it's how you use them. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Professor of Meaningless Trivia
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 6:02 AM
I could write the names of hundreds of artists who never used Adobe Photoshop, scores of scientists that never used a computer and untold numbers of musicians who never used Logic Pro.
Those wonderful players of the past never used an overblow because they didn't know about them.
The fact that overblows are more or less absent from the canon of pre-1960s blues music makes it very easy for blues purists to dismiss them.
Knowledge changes - times change. If they didn't we'd still be travelling at speeds under 20mph for fear of suffocating.
The knowledge is out their now, as well as a new post-overblow body of work to influence new players - so why shouldn't new players try to learn them if that is the musical path they want to follow?
It's like discovering a whole new continent and then expecting people not to want to visit and see it.
Rather than camp A (blues purist non-overblowers) and camp B (non purist, progressive players) arguing this ad nauseum, isn't it better that we all just sit happily where we personally want to be and let others make the choices they feel is right for them?
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 7:38 AM
Thanks Todd. I was a little nervous posting this because I thought it could be taken the wrong way but it seems like you are getting what I am saying. I like you have no problem with players that overblow. I am impressed by Adams ability along with others. But I have been getting by for years without it. I just hate to see young players putting all there efforts into overblowing before they have the basics down.
I think it can become a 'basic', RT...It's like a child learning two languages at once-it's much easier for them at that young tender age, then after they've been speaking only one language for many years.
I do agree though, that anyone who plays and bends accurately with the non-overblown notes can learn them. the hard part, for me, is re-training the ear to adjust to this previously unavailable note or notes, then actually incorporate them into my playing musically, not just because I can hit the notes.
Oh, and Mr. VLUN, I'm a Camp B-er who conducts random panty raids on Camp A. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Professor of Meaningless Trivia
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 6:33 AM
"They might be better off working on playing a diatonic as it was made for."
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the diatonic was made for first position Ompah while tongue blocking the left side.
RT123 I understand what you are saying. A lot of novice and great players...past, present, and future will not need to overblow.
I myself, do. I love being able to play the 6 overblow in exactly the same context as the 3 draw. By this I mean playing it as the blue 3rd, the minor 3rd, and bending up into the natural 3rd... "That Spoon" lick can be played nicely by going between 6 blow and 6 overblow. Makes a good rooster call....It took me much longer to cleanly find the correct pitches available on 3 draw that it did 6 overblow.
I also like playing the 7 overdraw in the same context as the 4 draw. I don't know any great players that do not utilize wailing between the natural 5th and the flat 5th by bending hole 4 draw in 2nd position.
Everyone has a different sound and techniques they prefer.
I myself see no need to ever learn side tongue blocking. I do blow and draw splits just fine by blocking either 2 or 3 holes.
Many great players don't stray much from 2nd position. Some may use 4 or 5 positions during a show. Some can play in all 12 positions.
Some prefer alternate tuned harps or half valved.
Correct gapping and technique should not affect any of the rest of your playing in a negative way.
OK, I guess I am going to get beat up for this thread. LOL. Please dont think I am saying its bad to overblow. I said above " I am not knocking anyone for trying to play a diatonic as a chromatic, if you enjoy it, thats great." and "This is just my personal opinion and not at all a negative statement about those who overblow". The reference to my friend and his car was to show that everyone has their own opinion of how and why to do things.
I think it's interesting to hear peoples perspectives on this topic. I personally see the notes on a diatonic harp divided into 3 parts: the straight blow and draw notes, draw bends and blow bends, and overblows and overdraws. They all have their own particular feel and flavor. As far as beginners learning the harp, one should definitely get the 1st step down well before moving into bends, but I don't see why bends and overbends can't be learned simultaneously. They are essentially 2 parts of the same concept. From my experience with students, as long as the harp is well set up, and the player has good grasp on the basics, this can work quite well. I think learning it this way has the advantage that bends and overbends are seen in the same light, and the overbends don't have the stigma of being something incredibly difficult, or useful for only a certain style of playing. So yes, I'm an advocate of fair treatment of overbends!
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 6:37 AM
Sammy-did you learn them as an integral part of learning the instrument(in the first year or so), or after many years of playing without them? ----------
@sammyharp - very good points. My question to you is how often will your students be using overblows and overdraws in their playing? Not just in scales but actual playing? I ask this not to try to prove a point, I am honestly curious about it. Maybe people use the overblow a lot more than I think.
This post is based on my experiences in general and not even a direct attack on the OP, but I 100% disagree with the following quote...
"They might be better off working on playing a diatonic as it was made for. Once they master it in 5 to 10 years they can start working on overblows and other fun, challanging this."
Overblowing should be considered a basic technique. It is no different than any other bending and just like traditional bending, is easier to do on a harp set up to play well for the player. 99% of popular harmonica music involves techniques that use the instrument in a way in which it was not meant to be used. For example, all blues music in 2nd position, any bent note, single note playing, etc. THERE ARE NO RULES, NOR SHOULD WE ENCOURAGE THE NOTION THERE ARE.
OB'ing isn't a status symbol, a necessity, or anything magical. The greater harmonica society/machine/culture for some reason has created, IMO, a very silly set of preconceived notions and stereotypes around OB'ing because it is relatively new in harmonica pop-culture.
I also think OB'ing is an "issue" for some as it is often generalized as a part of a recent push towards the desire to view harmonica as a more complete instrument. This hurts some egos in regards to being able to jam some blues by ear because it isn't necessarily the benchmark of success it once was. Although, I would argue, OB'ing has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
IMO, OB'ing is often a scapegoat for players who insist on a level of denial about what is "good" harmonica and what isn't and often shows a lack of perspective - like it is ok to spend years learning how to play traditional blues as THAT is what the harp is mean to do, when in fact, blues harmonica was NOT the reason harmonica was created. Like if OB'ing wasn't "invented" no one would talk about scales, reading music, playing different positions...
Sorry to sound harsh, but my biggest harmonica pet peeve is the attitude that traditional blues harmonica is harmonica. For the record, I am 30, starting playing when I was 22 and started OB'ing at the same time I learned to bend. For me it IS a necessity. I play mostly rock music in 2nd, 3rd, and 12th position, although I also play quite a bit of 4th, 5th, and 11th. I am by no means a benchmark to measure success, there are many better players than I, but as a relatively young player learning at the very start of the OB wave, I couldn't even be in a bar band without OB'ing.
I don't care if you OB or not...really I don't and I know there are a lot of great harp performances that have been shared here that don't include OBs or other techniques that other use. But whenever someone starts a thread as it relates to dismissing to some extent something they aren't into while stating that all opinions are relevant disturbs me. If it wasn't a big deal to you or you are truly open to it, then why start a thread like this? I guess I don't react well to the idea of discouraging experimentation more than the OB part.
It is like me starting a thread on valves and saying, "Yeah, I don't play valves, understand why they are used, nor have I ever tried a nice valved harp...I think people should just overblow instead as it is easier and more natural to the instrument...but to each his own, I guess."
My other favorite (insert sarcasm) harmonica dead horse is the use of effects. "All you need is a harp, mic, and amp...effects just mess things up and are uncessary." Um, hello!? Mic...amp...those are effects! ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
I totally understood what you were saying. My perspective is similar to yours. I recognize overblows for the accomplishment that they are, but for my own taste, players that use them heavily are usually not playing a style that I particularly enjoy. I applaud them for their skill, but I really don't listen to them a lot. I accept that in the harp commuity though, you must be able to hit them AND incorporate them into your music if you want to be considered a true cutting edge master of the instrument.
Having said that, even if you can't overblow, you can still be a groovy, very entertaining blues harp player for most audiences. So whether you want to learn and use them is strictly a matter of personal taste.
This board has such a depth and diversity of knowledge of all things blues harp related, I can see how new players would feel intimidated if they could not get overblows out of their harp (as in "I can't overblow so i must suck"). I can't overblow, but it has never been an issue for me personally, because i've heard a lot of GREAT harp (the kind I aspire to) that doesn't use much if any overblowing.
"My question to you is how often will your students be using overblows and overdraws in their playing? Not just in scales but actual playing? I ask this not to try to prove a point, I am honestly curious about it. Maybe people use the overblow a lot more than I think."
See my previous post. If you are really curious about it and don't understand the purpose of OB'ing, than how can you make a judgement on its relevance and value?
I know I sound like a jerk, but I can't think of a more polite way to get to the point. I am not trying to attack you, but I want you to see that there are two separate things going on here...1.) You are sharing a clear opinion on OB'ing and its relevance, but 2.) you don't really get it.
I am just wishing you'd worry more about the why and how of OB'ing than formulating an opinion on its value and relevance. I guess I am encouraging a more informed opinion. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
There if a good example of having an opinion and coming off as being open to other viewpoints without attacking anything.
I must be crabby today, sorry if I am sounding mean.
I just keep thinking back to a player I met at SPAH that insisted on arguing with one of the world's top players, who was being very nice throughout the discourse, about what was good harmonica. This guy was not good, which is fine, but rather than agree to disagree, he kept insisting that his was was musically equal to others when it was clearly not. He wouldn't even consider doing anything differently, which is sad as it would limit his growth as a player.
It wasn't that he needed to do things differently, but rather his ego wouldn't let him even experience anything new before making a judgment.
***This guy was a campfire noodler who did hand warbles 100% of the time...I'd say everything I've ever heard from anyone on this site was more musically pleasing to me. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 6:51 AM
@ Todd- I actually played harp(badly) for about 12 years, took a couple years brake, and stumbled across the technique of OB on the internet, while researching Howard Levy. It really rekindled my interest in Harp, and I've since explored much more musical terrain with the instrument than I ever though I would. It really made the limitations (which I had previously found to be dicouraging) dissapear, and it finally felt like a real instrument to me.
@RT123- I encourage my students to experiment with them, but to use them in a meaningful way. Mostly starting out with using them in an imrovisation context, and eventually work on songs that use them. It varies, depending on learning curve and style.
@harpninja - Maybe I should have made it more of a questions than a statement in my opening post. With saying that I appreciate your opinion and don't take it as an attack at all so dont worry about that. You have a very stron opinion about it as I do, we are just on different sides of it. That is the beauty of this forum, to share information and opinions. When I started playing there wasnt much said about overblows and wasnt as much information as there is now. I have already developed my style, and I like it. I dont just get by, I think I play pretty well but continue to improve. I am not working on overblows, not because I think they are evil or anything, I just dont like to and its just not me. Your comment about it not being a status symbol is a GREAT point. I dont look at it as one and I am glad you do not as well, but I get the feeling a lot of others do. Maybe I am wrong about that as well.
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 6:58 AM
@ HarpNinja How do you really feel? Overblowing is not like regular bending! It is the most difficult technique to do well. As far what RT123 said about people (even intermediate players) using them. Yeah its not that hard to use once someone shows you how. Or in my case just figure it out. One misconseption is that blues players don't need to do them. Well first nobody needs to! Though overblows can easily be used in blues music just like any other kind. For people that don't understand what I said that are blues harpers. There are different ways of playing overblows. You can make them sound bluesy by bending it up from the unbent blow note. Once you get good at it gets smoother. At the beginning it will pop up and sound unstable. Thats not because overblows suck. Thats just because your not good at yet. It is the most demanding thing the harp will be asked to do physcally so be patient with it. It takes real good technique to make it sound worth using musically. Is it overrated? As much as people go on about here it is. Its just another way of making the missing notes. Thats all! @RT123 You touched on one thing that many people haven't talked about here much. At what point do you just play something with a chromatic and not try using 5 overblows in one passage? Of course I know its different from person to person, but I don't here to much about that. I like playing the chromatic so I don't push my overblow/overdraw playing into trying to play chromatically.
Harp Ninja, Ah, but if we follow your earlier quote, "THERE ARE NO RULES, NOR SHOULD WE ENCOURAGE THE NOTION THERE ARE." then the person arguing with one of the "world's top players" IS just as good as anyone. This concept of good and bad playing and music having criteria really holds us back. We are all equals in music. That said, I've got plenty of opinions about who I like and why. Michael Rubin Michaelrubinharmonica.com
I 100% disagree. The 4, 5, and 6 OB are no harder than blowbends. Overdraws are a bit trickier, but on a good harp, will sound using the exact same embouchure as the comprable blowbend. This is assuming you have a harp that has been arced and gapped well. Like the ease of traditional bending, the harp has to have a certain level of playability to make it work well. Also like traditional bending, the key of the harp can factor into the success of ob'ing too.
The technique to play them is not harder than other bending, no way. It is hard when trying to play them on a harp not meant to or set up to play them. The actual embouchures that work are almost always identical to those used in other common techniques.
Personally, I think any "difficulty" can be explained by two common issues. 1.) the harp is not set up to bend well, which can be easily fixed, and 2.) general technique issues not unique to the ob.
To expand on point two, IMO, players who struggle with OBs also struggle with bending in general. They don't bend to the correct pitch, can't sustain bends, can't add vibrato to bends, and struggle with timbre. Many times, those issues are non-issues in blues because of the demands of that music. The blues ain't easy, but you can get away with flat or generally out of tune bends or the inability to bend all the available notes. I mean no disrespect to blues players, but if all you do is play very traditional blues using very traditional techniques, it is quite possible that you wouldn't have to have a lot of technical bending skills (although you likely have many many other technical skills).
If you can learn to do ALL the draw bends and ALL the blow bends, keep them close to pitch, and have enough control/timber to bend them up and down a semitone or two, then OB'ing is NOT hard at all.
***I bet more harp players on even this forum can pop a 6ob than can bend the 2 draw down a semitone and in pitch. I'd probably have to include myself. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 8:06 AM
While I had judged his level, the point was the pro player was able to keep an open mind, listen, and think about what was going on. The other player was totally closed-minded. My including my assessment of their skills wasn't relevant to the point I was trying to make beyond trying to add some context.
But regarding technical ability, he was 100% not on par with the other player. And no, it doesn't mean everyone is at have to agree on everything and we should accept that. We shouldn't tell people what to like or do. It isn't accepting multiple viewpoints if you say there are multiple sides but one is right and one is wrong.
If I don't like a piece of music, I can share my opinion, but I can't say that that opinion is anything other than my truth. There is a lot of blues music I don't like, but I wouldn't tell someone else they shouldn't like it or that they shouldn't play it. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
Mikey, you're 30 years old? I wouldn't have guessed that. You articulate with a coherence that is from an older soul. I'll have to start reading your stuff with more of an eye towards some immature kid.
Lol. I don't feel a day under 40...which has its pros and cons. Thanks, that made my day, I think.
I blame attending a liberal arts college and moving far enough from family that I had to actually grow-up before starting a career. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
Let me begin by saying I started playing a year a go, so maybe my opinion is not the most relevant, however,
I realy dont understand the debate at hand.
I started playing and emediatly was able to hit the six ob, naturally. The rest really needed some heavy sheddin' at the momet I'm proud to say I'm working on the last two notes..........
My playing actually improved by learning to overblow, overdraw. My feel for the harp increased dramatically by learning which ever note. My musical insight, theory got drawn to a level where as, im actually understanding what is discused in other threads, positions, chord changes a.s.o.. Today I discovered by playing scales, the realtion between the 'not' bluesscale notes and why they sound good at certain moments. I heard their realtion with the chord notes, just by playing. Playing scales, blues, maj, min, mixo, pent, chrom, is fun and I think very good for my improv skills. Im not playing all the scales perfectly by the way.
Everybody has his way of playing. The harp has ten holes with, 39 (?) notes.
Why project your choice onto whomever? I dont know wether this is allowed on an american forum, but, My girl got mad at me the other night, me being focused on just one area :-)
I'd like to have a choice instead of letting limitations make choices for me. We got together with a couple of hardcore tongue blockers the other day, they dont lipp purse very well, so me, being an Adam desciple, I had a harsh time defending my way of playing. After five minutes I really killed the debate. It made me feel rather uncomfortable.
Everybody should do exactly that what he,she's trying to do (ecelogically),
Have fun....
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 8:40 AM
@ HarpNinja - There are drummers that don't use brushes. There are guitar players that do't use steel slides. There are trumpet players that don't use mutes. There are are piano players that don't use electric pianos. And there are harp players such as myself that don't use overblows. It doesn't make them better or worse, just different. It's not a status symbol, its not a requirement, its a stylistic difference.
Which is exactly what I said...but it works both ways. Just because a drummer doesn't use brushes that doesn't mean that it is not ok for others to use brushes. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
@ Jeffrey - You absolutely have the choice to overblow as I have the choice not to. Like I said above, I tried it, I can do it, but it doesn't fit in my playing. If you enjoy it, are good at it, and it improves your playing then go for it. I just feel some young players goet frustrated with not mastering it and let other areas of there playing suffer because of the obsession with it. Bottom line is (in my opinion) you don't need to overblow to be a hell of a player.
@ harpninja - I dont think I ever told people not to. If I did, then I misspoke and I take that back. I just wanted to get the point out that you don't need to in order to be a good player (once again in my opinion).
The debate isnt about obeing or not........its about letting everybody do freely. Dont focus to much onto the world around you, focus on your own life and choices. I think the struggle as you call it is the most beautifull part of playing, but here we go again, its not about the playing,
Couple of things here I have opinions on about overbending...just my humble opinion.
I think a lot of players old and new have embrochures that work well for draw and blow bending, single notes,and their playing in general....and when they try to overblow it either doesn't come or the tone sucks or the pitch is way off. They expect too much too soon. For me anyway it took a lot of work to go from getting the OB to half ass sound to making it a usable note. Now I am at a point that I'm working at making it like any other note...bending it, using vibrato, growling effects, and even using OBs in double stops.
The first times you us an OB you naturally want to start on the blow note of the same hole then overblow. That is a long way from playing a fat vibrato on an 8 draw and then sliding to a strong 6 OB bent up with a big tone. Much woodshedding.
You must FIND it. Remember the first time you played 2 draw bent whole step and said to yourself that is just as easy or easier than playing it unbent.
My point is that some give up because the embrochure they have developed for their style is not well suited for overbending. Not that that is a bad thing...(like I said, my brain and tongue will not work in unison to let me TB to one side)....secondly I think other aspects of harmonica came fairly quick and easy for a lot of players and when this does not happen with overbends..they give up.
I hate the term "popping" an overblow. It creates an image of pressure building up, then sudden realease..like a baloon. You can ease into overbends with the lowest of volumes and breath pressures and go from there. It works better and relaxation is the key.
Some popular songs do require OBs that are not blues...1st position Over The Rainbow, The Entertainer, the Little Drummer Boy.
Just don't give up too quickly and make sure your harp is right as well as your enbrochure. I'll keep working on that side TB until I get it.
Incorrect. You can ob tongue blocking. I am pretty sure several people on this forum do that and I am quite certain Joe Filisko and Dennis Gruenling do it that way. I believe the most recent comment I've seen regarding tb'ed OBs was Joe Spiers saying that that is how he does it (?).
Also, I thought LW used mixed embouchure at times. I don't get why you can't tb and switch to OB to begin with, but whatever. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
HArpNinja, I hear you. I like what you have to say, almost always. And I like your playing, by the way! But I have this devil's advocate thing inside me that I cannot control! Michael Rubin
@HarpNinja Overblowing and beding are not the same thing! When a draw note is being bent. The note can be brought down in pitch slowly and/or in very small increments. When this happens the more you bend a draw the more the blow reed bends into the middle of the hole. You can bend the note all the way down untill the draw reed either stops all together or is barely still moving. Then the blow reed is producing all of the note. When a Overblow is played The blow reed stops altogether and the draw reed bends backwards. You go from a blow note to a note a simitone higher (or more) than the draw reed. Just simple physics. That is not the same thing! Musically it is not the same thing! The technique used to bend a draw note allows you to open up as much as you possibly can. When producing overblows your redirecting the air into te harp and up which closses the sound chamber down (relatively speaking). Total contrast to a draw bend! I play overblows/overdraws. I'm not saying people shouldn't. I just think your opinion is a little overboard! RT123 was stating his opinion. I agree if someone is trying to learn to overblow and is haveing a hard time. Its probably because the harp isn't setup for it. Mike most people can't setup a harp to play overblows. You have to remember as Bqbob has said, "most people play with far to much breath force". If I handed my harp to most good harp players. They would think I have the reeds set to close. My point being a harp player has to be at certain level of breath control technique to be able to set thier harps up to be able to play overblows/overdraws well. Anyone can buy a harp a bend a note down in a short period of time. Why? Because its easier for the harp to physically produce a draw bend! Thats all I'm saying. I think that is why alot of people dismiss overblowing as something that is not needed. Frankly most people have bigger fish to fry then overblows. I would say there are some fundamentals that need to be learned before one pursues overblowing.
@ HarpNinja - You are a little crabby today. LOL. Its all good though. This thread was meant to be positive believe it or not. I was trying to make the statement to young players that the overblow is not the end all be all. Lets all take a deep breath and be happy.
@chromaticblues - Thanks, I think you understand my point. It can be a good discussion. I can tell from all of the threads on here that some people struggle with this. It may be a basic technique for some but not all.
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 9:46 AM
"There are drummers that don't use brushes. There are guitar players that don't use steel slides. There are trumpet players that don't use mutes. There are piano players that don't use electric pianos. And there are harp players such as myself that don't use overblows."
Brushes, slides, mutes, and electric pianos do not give these instruments notes/octaves previously not available. The better analogy would be a Saxophone altissimo and maybe Guitar harmonics or tapping.
I play many instruments which do not have limited scale tones within the range of the instrument. Because of this I feel OBs are necessary to express myself on the diatonic harp.
@ earlounge - That is one approach to use and you are free to do that. I prefer to use a chromatic in those situations. That quote of mine was in response to a comment about technology and new information in general.
Obviously the physics of the bends and how they play out on a harp are different, however, I stand by the notion that the actual difficulty of playing an overbend is not far enough removed from standard bending that someone who is proficient at bending would find overblowing much different.
Many people play their first OB by just reversing their air flow on a 6 draw bend. If you have a harp that can ob and just reverse the airflow o out of the equation to some extent. They still would know how to go back to the basic tongue position they learned as a newb, which would lead itself to OB'ing.
If you polled all the harp players who are trying to OB, I bet the overwhelming majority learned to bend initially from the mouth/tongue position. Again, I have no idea how to blow bend without moving my tongue. The way it is used commonly in blues often requires at least a dip bend into the blow bend and the best up there add vibrato by quickly bending the pitch...which I bet is done almost entirely by tongue.
***Edit:
I don't think it is at all hard to get many OOTB harps to overblow. Overdraws vary by key, IMO. That doesn't mean they are optimized to do that. If we are talking just trying to learn to get the OB to sound, there are many stock options. I think when you want those notes to be as close to blow/draw notes, they need work. I would also argue that draw bends and blow bends also benefit greatly from modding, starting with gapping.
Embouchure has nothing to do with OBs. I U-block overblows and overdraws with no problem.
I can also OB the 6 hole on unmodified, off the shelf harps - including the allegedly OB unfriendly Lee Oskars and £4 Golden Cup Chinese crappy harps. Setting up the other reeds is a matter of 20 mins or so poking around with a toothpick. You don't have to emboss (I don't), you don't even really need to dismantle the harmonica, you can do it through the front holes and rear vents.
Little Walter isn't the be all and end all. He had a chromatic, but to my knowledge never played it chromatically - does that mean that we should all play Dm and D#m tunes in 3rd and never figure out what that little button is really for (to paraphrase the man hmself)?
If a beginner wanted to learn music theory and sight reading alongside playing, should they be discouraged (because you don't need those skills to play like Little Walter)?
Finally, why do people assume that this forum - or even all the internet forums as a whole - is a representative sample of harmonica players? 98% of statistics are made up on the spot (and exaggerated to make a point), but I'll bet you for every online harp player there are hundreds who have never bothered with (or even know about) harmonica forums.
And is it really a surprise to find a high number of beginners wanting to overblow on a site dedicated to 'Modern Blues Harmonica'.
Anyway, I had a lot of trouble with overblows when it was explained as "draw bend as far as you can and then switch the direction of air to a blow." I got nothing like that. Howard Levy, and the late Chris Michalek explained it differently and that helped a lot.
If you can blow bend on the 8, then you can overblow the 6. Essentially, use the same motion you would use to overblow on the 8, and move it down to the six, and blow bend the six. It won't bend very far before it chokes. Gently increase the pressure and hopefully you'll start getting this horrific sound that is a little higher than the draw reed would be. That is the beginnings of an overblow.
If you're not getting any results like that, I would try closing the gapping on the blow reed a bit.
You also may want to try taking an old harmonica, and putting a strip of tape across the 4,5,&6 blow reeds. This will help you in figuring out what an overblow should sound like, because you get to skip the step of choking the reed, and just concentrate on making the draw reed sound while blowing.
Good luck. Learning to overblow didn't take me much longer than learning to bend did, so expect that level of frustration, til the eureka moment. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
It is still a more advanced technique then most young players need to get frustrated with. We have already established you can play your whole life without overblows, so why stress about it if it doesnt come easy. If you want to work at it, go for it, if you dont then dont. I am willing to bet it is the least used technique of all. If I had to take a guess and put them in order from most used to least used it would probably look something like this.
Single notes chords draw bends blow bends overblows overdraws
I am sorry, but I trust Howard Levy's perspective on this more than anyone else in the world....more evidence that competent bending, especially blow bending, makes OB'ing easier to figure out...
http://www.levyland.com/blowsanddraws.php
"When you are ready to try overblowing, practice blow bending 8 blow, and getting it to bend very smoothly at moderate volume, up and down, so there’s no crack where the pitch changes- I will assume that whoever is reading this knows how to blow bend. (8 blow bends down from E to Eb.)
Move down to 6 blow (G) and try the same thing on that hole. If you are relaxed and your harp is set up well for this (reeds close to the plates), a higher note will pop out of the harp- Bb, a minor 3rd higher than G. The 6 blow reed (G), acts as what is called a “closing reed”, and the higher- pitched draw reed, an A, actually bends up to a Bb, giving you the illusion that the 6 blow has “popped up” a minor third.
When you get good at this, you will find that the overblown note is very flexible. A player can bend that Bb down almost to A, and up to B or even C if the harp’s reeds are really set up close to the reedplate.
This technique works on 1,4,5,and 6 blow, getting Eb, Eb, F#, and Bb, and along with all the standard bends, blows and draws, fills in all the notes of the 12 tone (chromatic) scale for the first two octaves of the harp. The technique for 5 and 4 are slightly different than for 6. As the notes get lower, the mouth has to assume a shape that would make a deeper sound if you pronounced it. For example, 6 would be “gee” (with the g like the g in golly), 5 would be “guh”, 4 would be “gooh” . (You can also overblow 2 and 3 blow- you will get Ab from 2 OB and C from 3 OB.)" ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
"So you want to learn overblows? Overblows are no harder to achieve than blow bends. Some people say that overblows are not natural and shouldn’t be used. They are every bit a natural as bending. All blow notes from holes 1-6 can produce an overblow. The most common are blow 1,4,5,6."
"This technique is nearly the same as blow bending. Do not OVER blow. Use constraint and finesse to get the note. Again, refrain from blowing too hard or the note will not work! Remember it is the draw reed that actually sounds. Just like a bend the blow reed is the first to sound then it transfers to the draw reed as the blow reed acts like a closing valve.
You may have to adjust the position of your tongue to find the right spot. I find that the middle of my tongue moves towards the roof of my mouth when I overblow. This may not work for you because I have talked with others who have their tongue in a different position than mine. It’s best to experiment."
Again, there are different means to an end, but I strive to go with the most expert opinion I can find if a scientifically valid one isn't easy to find.
"The overbends are no more difficult to obtain than the standard bends, especially on a properly adjusted harmonica." ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
