|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Future of (custom) harps ?!
Future of (custom) harps ?!
Page:
1
apskarp
396 posts
Jan 20, 2011
1:28 PM
|
I'm a believer in Social Constructionism - roughly speaking, we are all making up our own realities with giving things and events meaning, interpretations etc in social interaction. In societies we create discourses which we maintain in active interaction - and sometimes there's a revolution and the whole discourse might change. I like to question dominating discourses sometimes as it gives room for new possibilities of thinking. This is why I wrote recently few posts about custom harps, where I questioned the common discourse of how they are being seen in the discussions. Of course that was just one viewpoint to the topic. There are people who agree that there are too much hype around them, but I believe in multiple truths existing simultaneously.
I started harp tweaking after I learned to OB. I realized that besides technique I had to work with the harps to be able to produce all the OB's & OD's. That was the main reason for me to learn the stuff, but then I learned some other things too about customization. E.g. when I was studying the Bach's flute sonata in E minor in Howard's web school I had to work with the harp to be able to play the song well - it was played in G-harp which is quite hard for me to play and embossing, chamfering, tuning, gapping etc helped to get the harp playable, even though there were no OB's in that piece (first movement). And it did work. So the basic need for tweaking for me is always musical one.
-----------------------
Now let me paint one possible future that I would like to see:
First, I believe that knowledge is created and developed in communities. In modern times we can see that there are less and less of secrets - the internet is one media that makes knowledge sharing really fast. So what I foresee happening is that there won't be any secrets in harp customizing in the near future. All is available for the community freely in the internet - tried and proved methods that work. Pro customizers don't hold back the information they have because they understand that by sharing it the whole community benefits from it and the new knowledge is developed rapidly within the community - lot faster than with individual experiments and efforts. The customizers can take the advantage of that knowledge and put it in their products. Their key selling points won't be the trade secrets anymore, but the quality of their handcraft. This is what is happening in many areas of business nowadays, open sourcing and communities are the key.
Secondly, I believe that most of the tweaking work can be done by anybody that has some handcraft skills. There is no need to be a pro player in order to do most of the stuff for the harps. It is enough that one understands what it is that they want to achieve and they got good tools to do it. E.g. embossing, straightening of the reeds, rough gapping and tuning are trivial things. It is enough if one has few months of playing experience so that he can blow and draw single holes + chords. Embossing can be made to really superb level without any playing skills. It just means that the person has to have good hands, good tools and patience. So in practice it would be possible to do most of the work for the harp in advance by person with only little playing skills and then leave just the less laborious part of the work for the player him/herself. For example the final gapping - the player would just adjust the gaps for her individual playing style and that's it, superb OB harp would be ready to rock!
This development would lead to very interesting new possibilities. For example, there might be a lot more harp customizers around. Some would be in developing countries like China or some African countries. They all would share the same knowledge and tools, and they could produce very good, airtight harps where all the basic elements were in place. Because of the shared knowledge the buyers would know exactly what has been done to the harps and because of the competition the prices for the harps would be low. Also the turnaround times would be just weeks or even shorter - perhaps there would be custom harps in the stock. As the buyers would also have all the information about customization, there wouldn't be need to have "finalized" products but e.g. the final gapping would be done by the buyers themselves to suit their individual needs.
So what is now a mid-range custom would become the new OOTB harp. You'd only make very little adjustments to the harps and it would become high-end custom, perfectly balanced for your own needs. If you'd need another harp there would be two choices: 1) go to store, buy 25$ harp and customize it yourself as you know exactly how to do it OR 2) go to the internet/local customizer and buy 50-75$ standard customized harp and optionally make little individual adjustments. Your choice.
What would you say about a future like this? Would you be ready for this kind of revolution?!
;)
----------
Youtube
Hoodoo Sauna
Blog
|
nacoran
3678 posts
Jan 20, 2011
1:53 PM
|
Dare to dream!!!
That's the model I hope things move towards, but keeping YOUR secrets if the other guy is willing to give his away can be a competitive advantage. It's like a nuclear standoff. Everyone knows it would be great if everyone scrapped their nukes at the same time, but no one trusts the other guys to do it.
At the bottom of the skill pile (I have the broken, over embossed reeds and slots to prove it!) there are guys who will probably never have the skill or patience to make a good custom. Since we know we don't have a dog in the fight, the least we can do is pass our crazy ideas to anyone who will listen. I have some doozies if any customizer wants them! All I ask in return is if they do turn out to be cool you give me a free one!
I have an idea for a 11 reed 3 octave harp!
I have an idea so you can play in any key with just 3 harps without having to use a chromatic. In one position!
And those are the least crazy ones.
Anyone interested, let me know! (Before the doctors come and take me away, hehe!)
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
Todd Parrott
351 posts
Jan 20, 2011
2:30 PM
|
I don't have a problem with anyone learning how to customize, but to expect customizers to just give up information here on the forum that they have taken years to learn for free just seems selfish to me. (I'm not saying that you are selfish apskarp.) Now, if you wanna pay for it, or offer something in return, form a friendship with them, etc., then that's a different story.
The same thing has happened on YouTube with playing... the reason that the young players whom everyone thinks are so wonderful (and they are), have gotten so good so fast is due largely in part to the internet. Again, nothing is wrong with sharing information, and if a harp player wants to give away all of his licks, techniques, or lessons for free on YouTube, they certainly have the choice to do so. Other harp players may decide to charge for lessons. Nothing is wrong with this either. But to expect every harp player to give away everything for free would be crazy as well.
I get e-mails all the time from people asking me to give them the tabs to my couple of jams on YouTube, usually with no introduction, no small talk, just "can you send me the tabs?" and sometimes I simply get, "tabs please." Again, I have no problem helping, sharing, mentoring, teaching, etc. I don't have a problem giving, but I have a problem when people want to take. Those of you who know me know that I am very approachable and helpful, and willing to assist you with anything, but the way a person requests help, the way it's presented, and the way I am approached are all big factors in determining how much I share.
I think your playing or customizing means a lot more to you and you appreciate it more when you've had to work for it and put in the blood, sweat and tears so to speak. Sometimes I feel like new players are saying in a sense, "you do all the practicing, you figure out all the licks, you spend all the hours listening to music and learning, and then just tab it all out for me and hand it to me on a silver platter." I think this is disrespectful to the guys who have put in the time and pioneered new techniques. In my day, there was NO one to help, no internet, etc. If I wanted to learn something, I had to put in the time to rewind and listen, rewind and listen, rewind and listen... until I figured it out. Not only did this make me the player I am today, but it taught me discipline.
The same is true of customizing. A lot of guys do a lot of the same things, but some have certain techniques and tips that make them better, and some of them spend the extra time and go the extra mile for the sake of perfection and customer satisfaction, i.e., Joe Spiers, and are pioneers in the world of customizing. When I buy a custom harp, I pay for it, and I have no problem doing so, because I realize I'm buying more than just a harmonica, I'm paying for the precious and valuable time the customizer put into it.
So, if you really want to learn to customize well, and if you really want to learn to play well, I believe it should cost you something, or you should at least out of respect offer something in return, not expect it for free. And for the record, a lot of people sharing free customizing tips are sharing free wrong information too.
And I don't think giving away all of the customizing "secrets" is necessarily gonna advance the harmonica in developing countries. If the manufacturers start building better out-of-the-box harmonicas, that might help though.
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2011 8:32 PM
|
tookatooka
2094 posts
Jan 20, 2011
2:52 PM
|
@Apskarp. I think Suzuki have beaten you here. Isn't this virtually what they are doing by upping the quality, reducing the tolerances and making an altogether better harp?
I think the manji showed the way things are going. Tight tolerances where embossing isn't really necessary. All they may need is a little re-gapping.
All they need do now is ensure the tunings are to the liking of the MB die-hards and they will corner the market. IMO.
----------
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2011 2:53 PM
|
nacoran
3682 posts
Jan 20, 2011
4:21 PM
|
I think sometimes the motivations for open-sourcers and, for lack of a better term, old economy guys is different. There are lots of reasons someone might play harmonica. It might move them. It might get them money. It might get their name on a harmonica. It might get them someone to snuggle up with at night. It might give them a warm altruistic glow to share knowledge with the next generation. It might just be bragging rights.
The same can be said for teaching any skill, whether it's playing or customizing or whatever. It's all about how each person ranks each of those priorities. The free flow of information can accelerate progress, but so can 'greedy' motives. In a perfect open source world you could instantly license any new development for exactly the right amount to offset any losses you'd take for not having exclusive rights to an idea and you'd get all the credit for the ideas. Or fame would be so much more useful than money that being known as the inventor of something great would be better than all the money in the world.
If you can get past the idea of future revenue though, the actual cost of giving away what you know in the internet era is pretty low. Once you make a video it's not really harder to share it with 2 people than it was to share it with one person. A customizer who showed every detail of what they did could very easily end up with more business. Sure, some people would learn to do it themselves, and some of those people might even become competitors, but people can also decide that that's the gold standard and therefore the one they want.
I read an article about a Brazilian club band that would send someone ahead to the next town on the tour with tons of free CD's. They'd give them away to anyone who wanted them, especially targeting DJ's. By the time they got to town everyone wanted to hear them, so their shows sell out. They make money and lots of people get free stuff. The thing that is hard to recreate- the live performance, costs a lot. The stuff that doesn't- one more digital copy, doesn't, and it's sure easier to catch people trying to sneak into a show than people downloading music.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
apskarp
397 posts
Jan 20, 2011
11:17 PM
|
Todd: You are right, even open source communities require something from the participants of the projects in order to recognize them. So if you want to be part of the community and build your skills with the extraordinary people there, you have to invest time and energy to be seen a valuable member of the community. The reward is that you will get recognition and stimulus for your intellect from the community.
However, the results of the community - the applications, the source code are made available for anybody who's interested. In that sense there are also wider community of people who can take advantage of the products and information, but at the same time they function as a potential customer base and advertising crew for the community. Look what Chris did for example here in MBH, he contributed here and in the process got lots of customers and advertisement.
@Nacoran: You understand completely what I'm talking about here. I think it was our generation that found this new way of doing business with the ability to reframe what are the rewards and what are the prices to pay. But I think it will be the next generation that learn to fully take advantage of this new community based open source business models. Although there are already good examples like this MBH where the business was formed by giving away the knowledge instead of just trying to keep it to yourself.
@tooka: You are right, the manufacturers are developing their methods too, so the OOTB harps will again get better and better because of the raised standards. However, it is really hard to get to the level of human hand when it comes to really high tolerances. If you think about how many people in developing countries are finding a living, it's the handcraft - making beautiful things from wood, stone etc. Now that the internet is reaching also the developing world by cheap mobile phones with internet, it's just a matter of time when somebody could discover that he could support his family by making custom harps from OOTB harps. If the knowledge and simple tools that are needed are in place then it's just a little investment on used practice harps and good OOTB harps and you have a business running. The handcraft skills are already in place..
In fact this could be an act of charity that few customizers would introduce the methods and give tools for some skilled hand-workers. It would give the customizers themselves good advertisement and good karma in return. So here's a tip, which you can use freely in the spirit of open sourcing.. ;)
----------
Youtube
Hoodoo Sauna
Blog
|
harpdude61
680 posts
Jan 21, 2011
3:26 AM
|
Great thread apskarp!
I think forums like this one give harp companys a tool to see what players want and need. They are fools if they don't follow whats happening in the harmonica community.
The recent posting of the Hummel Blowout proves that various styles exist among the pros. All those guys were awesome.... All are hall of famers, but Bird had the rainbow jumper, Magic the baby hook, Jordan the dunks, and Jabbar the sky hook. I tire of the debates over pursing vs. blocking, to overblow or not, this tuning vs. that tuning. Find which style you like or better yet come up with your own. There should be a harp that meets YOUR needs.
I agree that nothing will ever be as good as a custom made for your playing style, but I can see a day when you order a Marine Band and 2 or 3 different tunings and set-ups are available. Manufacturing technology, metalurgy, and research will advance the stock harmonica which in turn will make a custom even better.
I have written Hohner about product quality and consistency and you should write your manufacturer as well. Speaking out can only make things better.
I would love to see some company take a research and development team of players and engineers and really think outside the box and try new things.
Who knows? Maybe a reed that gets thinner at it's length is better...or a reed that narrows or comes to a point. Maybe there is a new metal alloy that is better for harp than anything ever used. The ergonomics of airflow is a science within itself. How about a harmonica wind tunnel.
Most consumer products advance with time. I hope and believe that stock and custom harmonicas will just get better and better.
I don't have the skills,time, or patience to work on a harp myself, other than basic gapping.
To be honest, if I had a secret customization trick that made a harmonica better and that was my livlihood, I would tell no one. Tell the right person and you are giving it to the world. If this happens you can blame no one but yourself.
I hope I didn't stray too far from the topic.
Buddha did tell me this and I hope it is okay to say...He told me after the new year that he was going to announce that he was going to be doing customizing and advisory work for Suzuki.
Big harp companys should seek at all the top customizers.
|
RT123
47 posts
Jan 21, 2011
5:16 AM
|
This is a great post. I agree that the way things are done are changing and they are changing FAST. I believe the "custom" harp was first started to fix the wooden comb problem. Once they came out with plastic combs it solved the problem for some, but more traditional players didnt like the feel, look, tines, how it protruded, and some claim the sound as well. Customizers had to find ways of making wood combs that were smooth, comfortable, sealed, and sealed in a way that was safe. Now the Manji and Crossover have solved that problem. It is possible to buy a OOTB harp that fits all the feel, look, and sound profiles that are wanted and expected. I think for myself and most of the players out there these are perfect. I dont overblow, and really dont have an urge to. Could I if I tried and worked on it? Sure, I guess I could, but I rather spend my playing time working on other things. The market for custom harps now can go one of two ways. In my opinion this will only apply to the most advanced players, or those who just prefer something a little different. Either the big manufacturers, Hohner, Suzuki, Seydel, etc... can offer customized services such as lowering reeds, and tighter tolerances. Or the talented guys on here and around the world that do it on their own will continue to do so. There will always be a market for "something different" such as a different color comb, covers, reedplates, and different materials. I just think they way things are advancing we may see the big manufacturers offering a "menu" when you order your harp. It may hurt the little guy and I hate to see that happen, but thats how things work. The little independet guys may be left doing small adjustments and it will have to be done on a case by case basis to provide something player specific.
|
groyster1
763 posts
Jan 21, 2011
5:51 AM
|
I agree that the work the customizers are doing will definitely influence hohner and suzuki on their manufacturing of harps-if they can see what goes into these custom harps and the demand for them they will in turn hone their products to suit the customer-but the independent customizer will still have the edge over hohner and suzuki when it comes to quality control
|
earlounge
270 posts
Jan 21, 2011
9:33 AM
|
@Todd Parrott,
Keep in mind that "giving it all away" brings other opportunities, and definitely brings awareness to you as an artist. For example: I've purchased 2 books, 1 CD, and drove over an hour to see Adam play a gig in NY state. I've purchased 4 of Jason's CDs.
I've definitely checked out your website for CD's to buy. You are one of my favorite Youtube harp players, and ICW for it to be done!
----------
|
groyster1
767 posts
Jan 21, 2011
10:49 AM
|
@Todd
personally I think you dont want people taking advantage of you and who does?I will be always grateful for people who want to help but @the same time dont want to be disrespectful-for someone to text you and say"tabs please" is disrespectful
|
Silvertone
79 posts
Jan 21, 2011
11:50 AM
|
I think customizers will continue to do a decent business and their number will increase. Pricing may become a bit more competitive amongst the lesser known or newer businesses but the guys who have been around will still be getting what they ask for. Wait times should decrease as the business is spread out a little.
This free exchange of imfo will level the field a bit. Potential customers who read about what it takes to make a custom harp may attempt it themselves and find they dont need the services of a professional. Some may realize the time they spend doing it could be better spent having someone do it for them. Some will not have the hand skills eyesight or patientence necessary to do it and have no recourse but to use someone else.
Im not sure what direction the manufacturers will take. Harrison is corralling the high end off the shelf market now. I dont think Hohner really cares, they will continue to do business as usual and still sell tons of product. Seydel may continue to improve along w/ Suzuki. But aside from Harrison none of them at this time have a chance to compete w/ the dedicated customizers
|
scojo
196 posts
Jan 21, 2011
12:25 PM
|
I'm reminded of the story about Picasso walking along the Seine, when up comes a woman who asks him to draw a sketch for her son. He draws the sketch and hands it to her, then says, "That will be 100 million francs, please."
She says, "What? But that only took you 30 seconds to draw that."
"Yes," Picasso replies. "But it took me my whole life to learn how to do it."
Having said that, I think open source is great when everyone understands the expectations, and I know that the motivations of those on this thread are good. It's just that, as a working musician, I have become exquisitely paranoid about being taken advantage of.
|
RyanMortos
983 posts
Jan 21, 2011
12:54 PM
|
Nice thoughtful post! I enjoy philosophical discussion :) .
Jim is already doing something cool no one has done before. He's allowing anyone to watch him work at his harp bench. And from all the knowledge Ive gathered it's in the little things that make the difference, most of the knowledge is already out in book/written/video form on the internet. Even when I had an in person lesson with one of the guild it was the little things that I didnt know/do but the basics are the same.
Hohner has already taken notice & are making changes. I was very impressed with their being at SPAH and their completely backing & taking notice of the real pro harmonica community. I seen a beta marine band that I was told would be coming in normal stock price made with screws and better seal. Others have commented that OOTB hohners are as good as ever. Unless they were blowing smoke at SPAH they have taken notice of the changing harmonica world.
----------
~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
|
apskarp
399 posts
Jan 21, 2011
1:10 PM
|
I was thinking about Harrison harps today. He has hired several skilled and recognized customizers to his company. However, what I've seen written here is that he doesn't use them as an expert panel on developing the techniques or anything like that. Instead they seem to be there as an assembly line workers and ensuring the quality. I might be wrong, I know only what has been written here in MBH.
But how I see it, it would be a waste not to try to make them a team that would throw in ideas of how to improve the product. It might cost more as they'd be designers instead of quality inspectors, but the rewards could be even better.
Actually I was also thinking about the long wait times etc. Why not to offer harps in two quality levels - one with final adjustments made by pro customizers with the original price and turnaround time, and another with very high quality on materials and all but the final adjustments done by non-pro people. The price would be reduced (e.g. to 100$) as the assembly costs would be smaller and the end-user could be provided the information how to setup the harp to suit the individual needs. Also the waiting time would be something like 2 months as the process wouldn't be so time consuming..
I'd go for those harps. If the tolerances and reeds are good to begin with the work with final adjustments would be really easy to do myself - no need to have pro customizer to do it for me. All that would be needed would be a shift of mind frames - the customer can participate in the creation of his/her instrument. Look at the e.g. the PC's of today - you pay for the memory, hard disk space, screen and build quality. People will install the programs they need themselves. This is happening in the mobile phone business too - you buy a phone with few basic apps and then upgrade it to fill your individual needs.
Why not apply that thinking to harps too? Perhaps we'll see more and more of this kind of business models in the future?
EDIT:
If you buy an instrument it doesn't usually have any music built in that - the customer has to make it herself. So why should the harp be readily adjusted to e.g. OB's necessarily - couldn't it be just made to the highest level of general quality and then the customer would make the final adjustments herself? All the information to do different kind of setups (blues, jazz, OB's, etc) would be offered with the harp..?
----------
Youtube
Hoodoo Sauna
Blog
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2011 1:19 PM
|
Miles Dewar
641 posts
Jan 21, 2011
2:17 PM
|
Suzuki takeover or Corner the Market?
I've NEVER seen a Suzuki harmonica in ANY music store I've been to in the Midwest United States.
|
RyanMortos
984 posts
Jan 21, 2011
3:29 PM
|
"I've NEVER seen a Suzuki harmonica in ANY music store I've been to in the Midwest United States. " (Miles Dewar).
I can attest to the same in Northeast United States. You can also add to that Seydels & those harmonica reeds that were supposed to be at guitar centers for b-radical harmonicas. Though, I have seen a nice guitar/piano shop once that had only some generic harmonica in the key of C & no Hohners, lol.
----------
~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
|
Silvertone
80 posts
Jan 21, 2011
4:07 PM
|
@apskarp I cannot believe that those guys @ Harrison would be able to not talk about where they'ld like to see that harp go:). I dont know if they work remotely and do conference calls or they have lunch together and bullsht all day long. There has got to be some serious brainstorming going on there. At least I'd like to think so.
@Miles Ive only seen Suzukis in a piano store here on the east coast. I doubt they can take over the market,but,they are mass producing the most technologically advanced diatonic in history.The Manjis tight tolerances have really upped the bar.Their website also has some really nice looking very expensive harmonicas.
@Ryan It is good to here Hohner is taking notice. All of us are benefiting.
|
Miles Dewar
642 posts
Jan 21, 2011
6:45 PM
|
A lot of people that use suzukis seem to be very happy with them and offer enthusiastic endorsements. A Lot Of Them.
It seems that whenever talk arises about the "Marine Band", it usually comes with a negative air. That's seems crazy because I don't personally believe the Marine Band is a Low Quality instrument.
There ARE flaws. No doubt about it. A lot of them I buy have a reed that is squeely or stuck. But Most of the time it just loosens up and works itself out. The response seems to be fine. It's loud and has a good sound to it.
Maybe I will have to find one of these "Manjis". I'm sure I won't buy them regularly if they're over the usual $28-$34 range. I sure would like to see what the fuss is about though.
|
nacoran
3688 posts
Jan 21, 2011
8:15 PM
|
I'm in the Northeast, and the only two brands I've ever seen in a local store are Hohner and Lee Oskar (not even any other Tombo models.)
I don't own any, but I always like to keep an eye on Turboharp. If I had the cash I would love to get one of their magnetic slide harps. Even their light up key stickers look cool. They look like they have some fun bouncing ideas off the walls there.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
|
apskarp
400 posts
Jan 21, 2011
9:51 PM
|
@silver: Probably you are right, even if they would not be officially brainstorming for new ideas, it is likely to happen anyway - but with their own customs or Harrison harps? ;)
@nacoran: I agree that the Turboharp seems not to rely too much on conventional ideas around the harp. Innovative mindset might even influence their business models. Suzuki seems also to develop lots of ideas and then implement and try out those with their end-products too - who knows whether that would also influence their business-models. Hohner is old-school, not much innovations there in any sense.
The greatest innovations are likely to happen accidentally. Thus developing an idea about how things might move on will give some new mindsets, but will fall short of from the true innovations which you are not able to develop incrementally but requires a complete switch from the dominating thought...
----------
Youtube
Hoodoo Sauna
Blog
|
Silvertone
81 posts
Jan 21, 2011
11:15 PM
|
@nacoran
I havent checked that website out in a long time. Wow!! Talk about custom. There is some truly innovative ideas floating around there. That magnetic whammybar does look cool.
|
colman
6 posts
Jan 24, 2011
6:49 AM
|
the harmonica and how players treat it is like just comming out of the dark ages compared to most other instruments.i play a guitar also and one of the first things i learned was to tune and set it up for the best sound.isn`t that what all harp players who are serious about good tone should be doing...
|
Post a Message
|
