kudzurunner
2268 posts
Jan 19, 2011
2:19 PM
|
OK, guys, fire away. It's time for me to bite the bullet and buy one or two chromatic harps. Many years ago I had a 64 Chromonica that somebody gave me. I played it a few times on the street, but it never quite cut through Mr. Satan's sound, so I put it down. I also purchased three or four of the smaller Hohner chromatics (12 hole) in the keys of A, Bb, C, and D. The big one I gave to my son, who has just about killed it. The other four I believe I gave to Jason. I wasn't interested in chromatic.
Well, I'm interested again, mostly because I want to add variation to what I do as a OMB. I've always liked Stevie Wonder's "Fingertips" and "Hey Harmonica Man." I also love William Clarke's "Blowin' Like Hell," which is why I special ordered the Bb to begin with.
Tell me what I should get. What do the pros use? What did Clarke use? Keep it simple. Is the 64 Chromonica still the reference standard?
This is the one I had. It's in the bottom of my son's toy box:
http://folk-instruments.musiciansfriend.com/product/Hohner-28064-Chromonica-64-Harmonica?sku=420580
I had four of these:
http://folk-instruments.musiciansfriend.com/product/Hohner-270-Super-Chromonica-Chromatic-Harmonica?sku=584346
And please please PLEASE no fighting. No name calling. I know you guys have opinions. Please leave the cats-fighting-in-a-bag stuff at the door. Thanks.
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2011 2:24 PM
|
harmonicanick
1062 posts
Jan 19, 2011
2:25 PM
|
I have a chrom in C
I asked our local 'expert' about keys
His advice was stick with C and learn different chromatic scales and all you need is the one.
Its still in my drawer..
|
MP
1278 posts
Jan 19, 2011
2:40 PM
|
seydel deluxe or...the saxony. i have 64s and 270s. they are no longer the standard-but i still like them for sentimental reasons only.the seydels out perform them.
----------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
|
Stevelegh
40 posts
Jan 19, 2011
2:44 PM
|
Call Tony Dannecker in the UK. He used to work on Larry Adler's chroms.
He sorted me out with a Super Chromatica 270 Deluxe. Beautiful.
You can do most of the Stevie stuff on that. Otherwise a Super 64 or 64X as Stevie himself uses.
I did a bit of research on Stevie Wonder's harp playing and I've heard he has them worked on by Cham'Ber Huang and gets them tuned high and bends down into them to get 'that' sound.
I've learned a few tunes and they're pretty similar to diatonic positions. Fingertips in Dm. Third position. For Once In My Life in F#. 12th position with the button in. There Must Be An Angel (Eurythmics) F 12th position. That track is a good starter. it feels totally natural on diatonic in C. The only thing missing is the slide bumps.
Winslow Yerxa did a brilliant analysis on Harp L about tracks where Stevie speeded or slowed tracks to fit suitable keys to the chrom. I Feel For You was one and Do I Do was the other, I think.
Sorry for rattling on, but I love the guy's playing. Not the most technical by a long way, but communication, execution and individuality is more than enough.
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2011 2:46 PM
|
dougharps
31 posts
Jan 19, 2011
2:50 PM
|
Adam, I just bumped a chromatic thread that has interesting information related to your question.
harmonicanick is right: if you want to be a "true" chromatic player, playing chromatically in all keys, just get a C and learn all the scales.
I am not one of those players, and Smokey Joe Leone is another who uses multiple keys of chromatic for blues, jazz, etc. It is a faster way to fluency in multiple keys without years of scale practice, though a musical purist might note that you are not mastering the possibilities of the instrument.
A lot of blues players have used different keyed chromatics to get the fat nasty chords that you associate with blues chromatic, and play in the key you want. Most blues chromatic you hear recorded is in 3rd position, which allows the chording. There are chords available, and certainly octaves, if you just stay with a C chromatic, but not the same fat, nasty chords. I use a number of keys of chromatic.
I like the dark tone of Hohner 270s, but they are a little leaky. I haven't tried the 270 Deluxe. When I bought the multiple keys of chromatics, the Herings were inexpensive, and you could buy replacement plates/combs and save money. Herings were tighter, you could bend easier, and they went flat easier.
I haven't tried the CX-12, Suzuki, or Seydel chromatics, but I have heard good things about each.
Regarding the 12 hole vs 16 hole, I will quote myself from the thread I bumped:
"If you really get into octave playing on a C chromatic, I find it is nice to have the extra octave that a 16 hole has, so you don't run out of room. A 16 hole chrom is a four octave harp for single notes, but when you are playing octaves, it is a three octave harp."
I am sure you will get a lot of answers on this.
----------
Doug S.
|
kudzurunner
2269 posts
Jan 19, 2011
3:01 PM
|
I don't want to be a true chromatic player. No interest whatever in that. I'm interested in getting back to the quick-and-dirty 3rd position stuff, the basic blues/chrom stuff, that I used to do, and also in doing a few Stevie songs. I'm primarily a diatonic player; that has always been my primary joy. But variation is good, and most diatonic blues playing pros also play some chromatic harp. Mostly 3rd position, but a few 1st postion things--Hummel, George Smith. That's all I'm interested in. That and a few Stevie things. I play to steal Clarke and Gruenling licks. :)
|
RyanMortos
971 posts
Jan 19, 2011
3:42 PM
|
I'm thinking for a marine band hohner guy Hohner CX-12 (about $190) would be a good way to go. Or maybe Hohner Super Chromonica (about $160) Chromatic Harmonica. When I picked up my chromatic I was very much eye-ing up the Hohner CX-12.
And I totally agree with anyone who suggested key of C.
----------
~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
|
timeistight
12 posts
Jan 19, 2011
3:48 PM
|
The first question is 12-hole, 14-hole or 16-hole.
12-hole harps are easier to get around on, cheaper, and come in a variety of keys but you only get two octaves of octaves. Jazz players seem to prefer them.
16-hole harps give you that fat octave sound with sacrificing range but they're expensive, heavy and (I think) only come in "C".
14-hole harps are kind of a compromise: a bit smaller and lighter than the big guys but still with a three and one half octave range (two and a half if you're playing octaves). Suzuki and Hohner both have models.
If you decide on a 12-holer, try out a CX-12. They're really air-tight (for a chrom), loud and extremely easy to disassemble. Some people don't like the thick mouthpiece, though.
----------
What?
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2011 3:49 PM
|
jim
708 posts
Jan 19, 2011
3:56 PM
|
If hohner will send you chroms for free - take ANY.
If not - take seydel saxony - it's one of the loudest chroms I've tried. And also very durable, which is important if you buy chroms with your money (not for free).
----------
Free Harp Learning Center
|
sydeman
20 posts
Jan 19, 2011
4:18 PM
|
re: If you decide on a 12-holer, try out a CX-12. They're really air-tight (for a chrom). Some people don't like the thick mouthpiece, though.
The CX-12Jazz addresses the thick mouthpiece complaint
|
dougharps
32 posts
Jan 19, 2011
7:06 PM
|
I would think a C is the one that is standard for any lessons, and is used by most blues players as it is most common.
Are you comfortable singing blues in D and D minor? If you plan singing on the songs you play chromatic in 3rd position, and not just playing instrumentals, make sure it fits your vocal range.
CX-12 is said to be good for blues if the wide mouthpiece works for you. If you have TMJD issues like some posters mentioned on Harp-L, look for a chrom with a narrower mouthpiece.
----------
Doug S.
|
Aussiesucker
724 posts
Jan 19, 2011
7:40 PM
|
My 2 bits of advice is 1) that I have a Hohner Super Chromonica ca 50 years old and a fairly new Suzuki SCX48 both in C. They hardly ever get used. They are light years apart ie the Suzuki is much better but it's 50 years more modern. I note though that new Super Chromonicas look relatively unchanged.
My 2nd bit of advice would be to ask Brendan Power. Brendan plays both diatonic and chromatic. I also note in some vids he uses Hohner chroms even though he is promoting Suzuki. The CX12 Hohner looks very durable.
|
KingoBad
579 posts
Jan 19, 2011
7:47 PM
|
I give another vote for the 270 deluxe. Screws instead of nails, round holes, and mine is not leaky at all.
I DO miss the bottom 4 holes, and wish I had them every day I play the thing. I'm picking up a 64 chromonica this week.
There is a tenor version of the 270 deluxe too - so you get all the low good stuff and don't get the top 4 holes. It depends what you want to do with it I suppose. The 270 deluxe only comes in C.
My chrom. experience is very limited- so treat my 2 cents as just that.
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2011 7:49 PM
|
Joe_L
998 posts
Jan 19, 2011
7:59 PM
|
I faced this same problem a few years ago. I bought a 64 Chromonica. I also picked up a solo tuned Marine Band 364. I play the Marine Band more frequently.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
|
harpoon_man
7 posts
Jan 19, 2011
8:33 PM
|
I just picked up a Hohner 270 tenor C. Actually it just arrived at my doorstep this evening, and I've played it a bit. Love that bottom octave. Not as loud as my Hering C chromatic, but a much more classic sound, and I think that amplified it will sound great.
|
Kingley
1413 posts
Jan 19, 2011
9:58 PM
|
The Hohner Chromonica 270 or 270 Deluxe would get my vote.
|
clyde
94 posts
Jan 19, 2011
10:23 PM
|
stick with C ?????? right, let's hear some hot blues in E on that super 64.....
i think you'd be happy with any of the 12 holers from hohner or suzuki. if you get the best deal from hohner....i'd say go for it the 270 has good feel, great sound, is fairly airtight and fits the mouth better than the cx-12. (at least for me)
i also have the suzuki scx series and they are fine also.
|
harpaddict
15 posts
Jan 19, 2011
11:59 PM
|
The Hohner 270 Deluxe would be my choice.
|
harpdude61
675 posts
Jan 20, 2011
12:33 AM
|
I guess being a OMB, having one key, on a pretty good chromatic would suffice? Looking forward to where you go with this.
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2011 12:34 AM
|
7LimitJI
337 posts
Jan 20, 2011
1:24 AM
|
I haven't heard Clarke do much on the 64 in C
Most of his stuff is done on 270 chromonica's using either a Bb or an F.
Piazza uses the bigger 64 more often.
I have a super 64, which after gapping is great to play and loud.
I also have several CX-12 which are very responsive and loud. They sound great through an amp.
I also have a couple of 270 and 3 vintage 64 with the wooden bodies.
The wooden bodied chroms have a lovely tone,but are quiet compared to the modern plastic bodied. If you have plenty of headroom on your amp,then you just turn up to compensate.
So to sum up. Modern Super 64 and CX for gigging and wooden 270 or 64 for recording.
----------
The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
|
5F6H
479 posts
Jan 20, 2011
1:44 AM
|
+1 on what Joe L says, the Marine Band Soloist in C cuts better than most chromatics, great for 3rd position in D (they only make them in C), but no button of course.
|
7LimitJI
340 posts
Jan 20, 2011
1:54 AM
|
"+1 on what Joe L says, the Marine Band Soloist in C cuts better than most chromatics, great for 3rd position in D (they only make them in C), but no button of course."
Using the Soloist is a compromise.
I'd miss "the button" too much. You lose too many notes.
Also a complete key. I use the slide in, for the key Eb. C# in 3rd
----------
The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2011 1:55 AM
|
Andrew
1291 posts
Jan 20, 2011
3:45 AM
|
Like Harpdude61 says - when you're on your own, you don't even need to know what key you're playing in.
I'll be keeping my eye on this thread - I fancy the 270 Deluxe. Mind, Adam, you know if you ask for recommendations, you'll get 60 different ones from 50 people!
I like Stevelegh's comment that Stevie Wonder's playing isn't the most technical. Pointing out the difference between technique and technical might have been a good idea in the tone vs technique thread!
----------
Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2011 3:45 AM
|
kudzurunner
2270 posts
Jan 20, 2011
4:38 AM
|
Thanks, everybody. Excellent advice. I learned a lot by asking the question.
I've actually got a soloist. Nat Riddles used to play one from time to time, so I bought one. It does cut through nicely, that's true.
Does anybody know what Dennis G. uses, offhand?
D is a great singing key for me. Easier than E. (Or F, which stretches the top of my range.)
I'll process and digest the comments here.
--Adam
|
hvyj
1143 posts
Jan 20, 2011
4:58 AM
|
Hohner also makes a tenor CX12 in C, which gives you the low octave you get on a 64 in a smaller package. I've got one. It sounds cool and is not as temperamental as some other chroms, but I don't actually play chrom except to screw around.
|
toddlgreene
2535 posts
Jan 20, 2011
5:08 AM
|
Regardless of brand or key, go for the 16-holer-that bottom end is fun stuff to have at your disposal. I haven't seen anyone with a looper do it yet(reading this, Brandon?), but if you played a bass line on the low end, then slid up for some cool 3rd position melody/solo playing, some good sounds could be had...
----------
Todd L. Greene, Professor of Meaningless Trivia
|
7LimitJI
343 posts
Jan 20, 2011
5:17 AM
|
I think the 16 holer's only available in "C"
If anyone knows different. I'd love a 16'er in Bb.
----------
The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
|
toddlgreene
2536 posts
Jan 20, 2011
5:20 AM
|
I am not certain, but it seems I've seen a 16-holer in D before...I'll look around. Both of mine are Cs, as 7LJI says, though.
----------
Todd L. Greene, Professor of Meaningless Trivia
|
NiteCrawler .
95 posts
Jan 20, 2011
5:26 AM
|
I,m mainly a diatonic player like yourself Adam(98%)but have a 64(C),a CX 12(C & D)and a ten hole Hering(C)and have noticed that I can push alot more air into the CX,s and because of this reason they are louder.I also like the dis-assembling factor,which makes them easy to clean.As far as the mouth piece,maybe because I don,t play chrome much or for whatever reason,I don,t find them uncomfortable at all,actually I like the feel better than the others.
|
chromaticblues
493 posts
Jan 20, 2011
6:43 AM
|
I totally agree with the people that said CX-12. Because you play Hohner harps it will be easier to get the feel of the reeds. That has the closest vibrato responsivness to a diatonic out of the chroms I tried. Its pretty air tight and sounds good!
I have tried them in different keys and really only care for the "C".
|
honeydawg
29 posts
Jan 20, 2011
9:24 AM
|
I just hate the square holes of the Hohner 270; I find it torturous to tongue-block. I also don't like the range of the standard C 12-holer, so I prefer a CX-12 tenor C tuning. I have others in G and D.
If you can find an old 64 Chromonica in good shape, straight-tuned, late 50's or earlier (they came in a wooden box), they are very nice harps.
|
barbequebob
1501 posts
Jan 20, 2011
9:43 AM
|
Having opened for Clarke a few months before he passed and hung with him, he used 270's in Bb, C and F. He did occasionally use a 64 in the 80's, and a 2016 CBH for a short time (he wasn't too thrilled about those, which was much the same feeling I had).
If you buy a 270, you can always get mouthpieces for the 270 Deluxe, which uses round holed mothpieces, which I much prefer and they'll fit perfectly in any 270.
Bends makes a 16 holer available in both C as well as in Bb.
I use Hering chromatics more often these days because they tend to play easier out of the box, are all straight tuned and the mouthpieces are all round holed and much more comfortable than Hohners are, but if you tend to play too hard, they can get blown out faster, particularly if you usse the ones with a thicker reed plate.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Spider
19 posts
Jan 20, 2011
11:10 AM
|
I read somewhere you can change the slide on the 270 deluxe to accomode lefties like myself. Is this true? Can you do this with any other chromatics?
|
Kingley
1415 posts
Jan 20, 2011
11:44 AM
|
Adam- Dennis Gruenling uses the Chromonica 270 Deluxe mainly. I'd recommend it or the normal Chromonica 270 for a few reasons.
1. They are relatively cheap.
2. They have that classic tone that no other chromatic comes close too. Much like the Marine Band does among diatonics.
3. Every great player has at some point used the 270 and many still do.
4. Because it's one of the most comfortable chromatics to play.
|
5F6H
483 posts
Jan 20, 2011
11:56 AM
|
@ Spider: "I read somewhere you can change the slide on the 270 deluxe to accomode lefties like myself. Is this true? Can you do this with any other chromatics?"
This can be done easily on any of the Hohner 270 standard harps, by anyone with basic practical skills and a 1.5mm drill. Take off the cover plates, push out the pin that locates the return spring, flip the return spring by 180, replace the pin. Turn the slide round & guage where the new hole should go in the slide at the "non-button" end, drill the hole & reassemble, after making sure that the slide is the right way up (natural notes with the slide out).
|
Sausagescoffer
5 posts
Jan 20, 2011
12:27 PM
|
I believe the 270 Deluxe mouthpiece components can be taken apart and simply turned around and re-attached to accommodate left handed players.
|
Spider
20 posts
Jan 22, 2011
12:58 PM
|
Awesome! I'm gonna buy a chromatic!
|
Gnarly
2 posts
Jan 23, 2011
12:10 AM
|
I am the repair guy for Suzuki USA, so I recommend you get the SCX-64 (or 56). They are airtight, sound good, and are very affordable. They also come with a one year warranty!
I usually use a CX-12 onstage, which I have retuned to C7, starting on G--so it's like a 14 hole harp, but bebop tuned. So it gets my vote too.
Hering makes chroms in all 12 keys, if you decide that you want to play 3rd position blues in Bb . . .
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2011 12:10 AM
|
Pluto
125 posts
Jan 24, 2011
10:20 AM
|
How come nobody's mentioned Hering. I own three, and they're tight and very easy to play. I personally think they are much better than hohner or suzuki, and priced competitively. Musician friend has them.
|
Rubes
224 posts
Jan 24, 2011
1:50 PM
|
I have to give a vote for the Saxony..... I just got one of Jim's 'True Chromatics' and it's a beauty!!! So nice and SMOOOOOOTH....
|
earlounge
271 posts
Jan 24, 2011
2:03 PM
|
Dennis uses the 270 Deluxe and that is the one he suggested to get. He uses many different keys live, so I assume he uses regular 270's since the Deluxe only comes in C. However, I'm pretty sure all his harps are custom.
----------
|
bluemoose
455 posts
Jan 24, 2011
2:33 PM
|
I have a CX-12 but it's a Brendan Power custom so it plays like a dream (Suzuki plates, blues tuning,smooth button action) My one regret is I didn't get a CX-16 to get that low octave but the tenor model mentioned above would 1/2 fix that. My one issue with them is the frailty of the 2.5 mm edge left in the plastic shell from the slots cut for the tangs of the tension bar that holds it together. It does not take much to crack the plastic and then it's only a matter of time before it fails completely and then it's $75-$90 for a new shell.
----------
MBH Webbrain-a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
FerretCat Webbrain-Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2011 2:33 PM
|
strawwoodclaw
193 posts
Jan 24, 2011
8:17 PM
|
David Barrett recommended Hohner 270 deluxe I got one just before Christmas it's a good harp nice & loud & not too big perfect for W Clark syle
|
