3 cav 84a
18 posts
Jan 07, 2011
2:43 PM
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G'day and Happy New Year from Down Under, I have a question well lots of questions about how to use 1st position and 3rd position blues scale notes in the one 12 bar progression. As I understand it when your in the I chord your playing the notes from the blues scale of 2nd position. When you change to the IV chord you can play these same notes or if you like you could play the notes from the 1st position scale, so here is the main question (I play the top octave 1st position scale) How do you get up there? do you do the turnaround and then just jump straight into it or does that sound a bit disjointed?. Do you use the turnaround to "climb" up to the top octave.
It isn't so bad if your going to play 3rd position over the V chord as those two scales sit side by side, any advice much appreciated regards Neil
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hvyj
1014 posts
Jan 07, 2011
3:10 PM
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In second position you have a complete 8 tone second position Mixolydian scale on holes 6 through 9 (do-re-mi scale but with a flat seventh) without having to bend. it's not the blues scale, but it works GREAT for playing blues. all these notes work over all 3 chords. So, you play Mixolydian on the high end when playing second position blues.
Here's the trick: When you bridge from the the middle octave to the upper register or from the upper register back down DON'T hit draw 5 (flat 7th) or blow 6 (root). Hit blow 5 (sixth) and draw 6 (ninth). Using these two non blues scale notes to bridge between the middle and upper registers sounds very musical and melodic and ties everything together extremely well. If you do this and don't use any blow bends it's actually hard to hit a bad note playing second position blues in the upper register.
It can actually sound pretty dramatic just to go up and hit draw 9 (flat seventh) or draw 10 (ninth) and move down from there. you've got to have the chops to do it fluidly, but that's just a matter of practice. don't forget to use draw 6 and blow 5 as you bridge back down.
Btw, playing blues you use the blues scale of the KEY YOU ARE IN over all 3 chords. Of course you can play other notes, too. But, unlike playing many other styles of music you don't routinely play the scale of the tonic note of each chord. You select notes from the blues scale of the key you are in based on their function relative to each chord. For example, the flat third of the key you are in is the flat third of the I chord and and the flat seventh of the IV chord. Flat seventh of the key you are in is the flat seventh of the I chord and the flat third of the V chord. Etc. You use the blue notes of the blues scale of the key you are in as blue notes relative to each chord as you move through the chords. this is why some musicians say that blues has no harmony. I don't agree with that statement, but i understand why they say it. Some musicians say that blues is just a floating dominant 7th chord. Again I'm not sure I'd put it that way, but they say stuff like this all because you play the blues scale of the key you are in AGAINST ALL THREE CHORDS. This differentiates blues from many other styles of music. Jazz blues may be different, but I'm talking about blues blues.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 12:16 PM
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tookatooka
2046 posts
Jan 07, 2011
4:18 PM
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@hvyj. Say you've given so much good info lately. I've started a file hvjy-harp-notes where I'm storing it.
Do you have all this stuff written down hvyj or are you just gonna leak your wisdom out over a period of time?
If you do have any notes written down I'd love to see them.
Maybe you should start a class on here?
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hvyj
1015 posts
Jan 07, 2011
5:51 PM
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@tookatooka:I've only responded to particular questions that have been asked lately because i think i have information that the person who asked the question might find helpful or interesting. There just happen to have been more questions of this nature recently. The people who have asked the questions seemed like they were at a stage of development where they would be receptive to what i had to offer and i happen to have had time available to respond.
Actually, the info in the above post from me is all stuff I've mentioned on MBH before at one time or another, but no one cared or seemed to be interested then. I'm flattered that you find my information useful. It's from a store of info i carry in my head--stuff i use and need to know in order to play competently when i perform with other musicians.
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2011 6:18 PM
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ncpacemaker
57 posts
Jan 07, 2011
6:28 PM
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hvjy you seem to have a wealth of knowledge stored up there between the ears. I wish I was musically smart enough to fully understand it all. At least now I can tell you what the I, IV, and V chords are for most any key. If you can play as good as you can explain it, I bet it's really good. Can you drop a little hint as to how we forum members could actually hear you play ?
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arzajac
426 posts
Jan 07, 2011
6:44 PM
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"stuff I've mentioned on MBH before at one time or another, but no one cared or seemed to be interested then"
I never said anything, but I noticed and have been interested in what you have said. Typically, I pay attention when you post.
I've always wondered what you sound like, too.
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hvyj
1016 posts
Jan 07, 2011
7:56 PM
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Well, I'm delighted to know that my posts make sense to others besides myself. i don't pretend to be a great player or anything like that, but I do play out a lot and consider myself to have quite a bit of live performance experience. I think I am sufficiently competent to understand what actually works playing amplified harmonica live, on stage, in public in the real world with professional musicians. i am not a full time professional musician myself, but it is my good fortune that most of the musicians i get to play with are.
i'm self taught, but I've had the very good fortune to play with some really good musicians over the years and from them I picked up a practical working knowledge of basic music theory. I had to in order to be able to keep up. Also, my ear is not all that refined, so i had to learn theory to improve my note selection and ability to play what i should be playing in order to play competently and in a style consistent with what i wanted to sound like. i ain't into playing "just like the record." I have to be able to express myself and play what I feel or else, as far as i am concerned, there's no point in performing.
I don't have the ability, tech savvy, time or inclination to make show off recordings to post. if one of the bands i play with ever gets around to making some promo recordings like we've been trying to find time to do I'll let you know. I play out 2-4 nights most weeks when i have time--either gigging or sitting in, and i really enjoy the give and take of live performance in an electric band setting. I also work during the day so I have sufficient demands on my time to make recreational recording a low priority.
I find that I don't agree with a lot of the conventional wisdom about harmonica playing. In my experience, a lot of the folklore just isn't all that useful in a real world performance setting. what sounds good in the living room or basement doesn't always work in a live performance situation at a public venue. Also, what a harp player can get away with playing blues won't always work playing other styles of music and SO much of the published instructional materials are so heavily blues orientated that I find their approach to be somewhat limiting even though often what is covered in the instruction may be presented very well as far as it goes.
Anyway, I'm staring to babble. but it's nice to be appreciated. thanks.
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2011 8:06 PM
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3 cav 84a
19 posts
Jan 08, 2011
3:37 AM
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Hvyj, thanks for the info, much appreciated I will practice using those passing notes (blow 5 and draw 6) on my way up to the upper octave. I have just been noodling away and when I do get to the top octave I find myself using a lot of the blow bends, (maybe because it took me so long to learn them that I will use them just to show off, not really they sound good to me especially the blow bend on hole 8), regards and thanks Neil
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hvyj
1017 posts
Jan 08, 2011
7:21 AM
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In second position, blow bends only fit on the IV chord, so if you really want to use them, you have to pick your spots carefully. Bending B8 gives you a flat 6th--not a great note for blues. Personally, I almost never play any blow bends in second position. But i do play Mixolydian on the high end quite a bit.
You really have to train yourself to hit those "bridge notes." If you miss and hit B6, that's not so bad, but hitting D5 will sound pretty dissonant if you are bridging from the middle octave blues scale to the upper register Mixolydian scale. But if you are just playing blues scale in the middle register, D5 is a great blue note since it's the flat seventh.
You make an important point--many harp players play certain things (like blow bends) simply because they can. They force feed what they know how to play over whatever the music happens to be instead of playing NOTES that fit the material.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 7:23 AM
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MP
1249 posts
Jan 08, 2011
11:45 AM
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-hvyj,
i've always found your posts on position playing informed and useful. i think it's great that if one clicks your user name, there it all is in a nutshell.---------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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hvyj
1019 posts
Jan 08, 2011
12:30 PM
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@MP: thanks. Actually, it was German Harpist that insisted I put the tabs in my user profile. I had previously posted the same information in some thread or other, but it got swallowed up somewhere in the archives and became hard to locate. So, I just followed GH's suggestion.
I'm pretty comfortable playing in multiple positions, so I've never learned to OB. Instead of OBing, I'd just use a different position that would give me the notes I needed. It's not always 100% but it allows me to get by.
Btw, pentatonic scales don't get a lot of attention, but are they ever useful for soloing and improvising over a wide variety of material. one can get get an unbelievable amount of mileage just from knowing the minor pentatonic scale, major pentatonic scale and the blues scale.
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MP
1258 posts
Jan 08, 2011
6:48 PM
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very true, brendan power has proved- beyond a shadow of a doubt- that you needn't overblow to be a wonderful player. brendan is fantastic.-i'll take him over the cream of the crop of any and all OBers any day. his music is just better.-i do like to OB though.--------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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Jim Rumbaugh
366 posts
Jan 08, 2011
6:55 PM
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The title of the thread is "How to use 1st and 3rd position", but now I want to talk about blues bridge from 1st to 2nd octave. I'm gonna go start another thread. You got me intrested. ..... good stuff.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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