Hondo
95 posts
Dec 30, 2010
7:42 AM
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So I've been playing for a couple of years practicing scales, bends, riffs and studying alot from Adams and others youtube videos. I really feel like I need some advice on the next direction to take me further along.
Should I go through Adams videos intently step by step, begin learning songs one by one, focus on jam tracks or all of the above. I would also think that it needs structure. I just feel stuck where I am right now.
Thanks
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eharp
1036 posts
Dec 30, 2010
7:49 AM
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playing with real musicians will help you utilize the skills you have been practicing.
backing traxs are the next best thing.
you say you are using adam's videos. are you using his lessons from this site, too. some very good stuff.
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Hondo
96 posts
Dec 30, 2010
7:56 AM
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Do you mean purchasing the tradebit things? If so, only a couple to this point.
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upstate
40 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:07 AM
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record yourself playing to backing tracks. that will help you realize how good you are.
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tookatooka
2007 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:07 AM
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@Hondo. Same here. I've come to the conclusion that I need to decide where I want my harp playing to take me.
I don't want to play with a band.
I don't want to just play to backing tracks although I find it a useful exercise.
I know I'll never become a pro.
I just want to play without any accompaniment to please myself but to quite a high level.(But, who knows? If I should become really good this may change).
I want to pull my harp out in company and just "blow them away", so to speak.
So at the moment I'm trying to learn stuff that fits that criteria and find what sounds good and will fit within the limitations of the instrument.
I also think it's important to know what you don't need to know too because you can go on learning stuff which may be of no benefit to the way you intend to play in the future.
E.g. I spent a lot of time learning some traditional Irish tunes which I doubt I'll ever want to play in earnest. The only thing it was good for was learning to play faster and I'm still not fast yet.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2010 8:09 AM
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belfast_harper
198 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:10 AM
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I thing that the two best things you can do after you have got the basics down is learn how to play complete songs and jam as much a you can.
If you use tabs a lot I think it would be a good idea to break away from them and learn to use you ear to figure things out.
You should also go to your local jam as much as possible as well. Going to a jam will show you what you need to work on as it will expose weaknesses in your playing.
After I went to my first jam I realised that I had wasted far too much time noodling and that I didn't know how accompany a band and I ran out of ideas very quickly when trying to solo under pressure.
If you are going to spend time jamming with cds, I would recommend that you purchase Jimi Lee's Groove Trax'.
EDIT - I should say that my goals are to build up my own repertoire that I can play unaccompanied and also to be able to play with other musicians. I am just focusing on blues at the moment.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2010 8:17 AM
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Hondo
97 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:14 AM
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I would love to be good enough to be able to do very well when playing with some blues acts that I know (2 piece-drummer and guitar/vocals). Maybe play a gig with them once in a while. Win a W.C.Handy award (just kidding). I guess that I would like to consider myself pretty d*mn good. Would that be Adavanced Intermediate?
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captainbliss
367 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:18 AM
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@Hondo:
/I would love to be good enough to be able to do very well when playing with some blues acts that I know (2 piece-drummer and guitar/vocals). Maybe play a gig with them once in a while./
How many songs off their set list can you play the bass line to (on harmonica, of course)?
xxx
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Hondo
98 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:20 AM
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@ Tooka, we sound very similar except that I would like to "be able" to play w/ a band. Pull it out and blow them away- yep.
@ Belfast- "After I went to my first jam I realised that I had wasted far too much time noodling and that I didn't know how accompany a band and I ran out of ideas very quickly when trying to solo under pressure".
This would happen to me! I just don't have jams here.
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Hondo
99 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:21 AM
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@ captain- ZERO
Playing the base line may be new to me since I think of fill riffs, and soloing.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2010 8:23 AM
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captainbliss
368 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:24 AM
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@Hondo:
/@ captain- ZERO/
Interesting!
How many songs off their set list have a guitar riff that you know and can lock in with?
xxx
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Miles Dewar
576 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:26 AM
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Pull out all your harps, pull out your MP3s or CDs. Hit "Shuffle" and play everything you can.
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---Go Chicago Bears!!!---
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captainbliss
369 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:27 AM
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@Hondo:
/Playing the base line may be new to me since I think of fill riffs, and soloing./
I wonder... Might the next level for you involve bass lines and the shape of whole songs?
xxx
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belfast_harper
199 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:34 AM
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Learning bass lines are good, the second time I went to the local jam I was able to lock on to some bass lines and it almost looked like I knew what I was doing.
You should ask the band if they know any songs like I'm a Man or Hoochie Coochie Man, they are simple songs to start of with to get some practice playing with a band or in public.
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captainbliss
370 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:37 AM
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@Hondo:
Start with something like "Rock Me." A I I VII bass line over 12 bars (does that make sense? Ask if not). In 2nd poss:
2D 6B 5D over the I chord
1B 4B 3D' over the IV chord
1D 4D 4B over the V chord
(B = blow, D = draw, ' = bent, no of ' = no of steps bent)
The objective is to be able to play it solidly enough to accompany a singer.
xxx
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belfast_harper
200 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:38 AM
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Hondo, where are you located? You should look out for an event like this
http://www.augustaheritage.com/blues.html
or this
http://www.euroblues.co.uk/bluesweek2010.htm
near to you.
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captainbliss
371 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:42 AM
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/http://www.euroblues.co.uk/bluesweek2010.htm/
+1,000,000 to that.
EDIT: it's also the source of most everything of any value I have to say about harmonica playing!
xxx
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2010 8:44 AM
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Hondo
101 posts
Dec 30, 2010
8:56 AM
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@ Belfast- U.S. Tennessee. I looked over the Augusta site and it looks GREAT.
@ Captain- Yes, the chord progression makes sense to me and THANKS. I think this could be exactly what I need. I really appreciate it, will work on that one today and look for other ones to learn.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2010 8:57 AM
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captainbliss
374 posts
Dec 30, 2010
9:02 AM
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@Hondo:
My pleasure.
Credit should really go to Grant Dermody for burning the importance of bass lines and the excellent idea
"if you'd like people to think of you as a musician, it doesn't hurt to be able to back a singer all the way through a song"
into my mind.
xxx
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tookatooka
2009 posts
Dec 30, 2010
9:15 AM
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@captainbliss
I've underlined the bit where I'm puzzled.
Can you help? Sounds good advice.
Start with something like "Rock Me." A I I VII bass line over 12 bars
.In 2nd poss:
2D 6B 5D over the I chord
1B 4B 3D' over the IV chord
1D 4D 4B over the V chord
(B = blow, D = draw, ' = bent, no of ' = no of steps bent)
The objective is to be able to play it solidly enough to accompany a singer.
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belfast_harper
201 posts
Dec 30, 2010
9:23 AM
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I think it is a 1, 8, b7 chord progression.
I have written the second beat as an 8 as it is an octave higher than the root on beat one.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2010 9:33 AM
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captainbliss
375 posts
Dec 30, 2010
9:52 AM
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@tookatooka:
I = root note
VII = seventh note of the scale
So, over the I chord:
Root note (2nd pos = 2D)
Root note (2nd pos, up the octave = 6B)
Seventh degree of the scale (2nd pos = 5D)
'Fraid I'm not terribly good at explaining this kind of thing. Perhaps something like Michael Rubin's recent YouTube vids could help?
@belfast_harper
/I think it is a 1, 8, b7 chord progression./
Not a chord progression, a bass line. The numbers correspond to degrees of the scale, not to chord changes. As you rightly say, I I VII can be notated 1, 8, b7.
In fact, your way of jotting it down may be more helpful!
Eeek! Must go gig!
EDIT: The Ink Rooms, Lavender Hill, London SW11 (UK) if anyone's in the area?!
xxx
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2010 9:55 AM
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tookatooka
2011 posts
Dec 30, 2010
10:05 AM
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No that's fine Cap'n, thought it was something like that.
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belfast_harper
202 posts
Dec 30, 2010
10:08 AM
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@captainbliss - I knew we were talking about bass lines, the chord progression bit was a typo.
I think it was notated 1, 8, b7 in some handouts I lifted from Grant's class.
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Hondo
102 posts
Dec 30, 2010
10:25 AM
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Now I can't figure out which scale we are on.
Blues scale is 2d 3d' 4b 4d' 4d 5d 6b-right?
So where does the 5d (seventh note), you are refering to come from?
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Jim Rumbaugh
353 posts
Dec 30, 2010
10:55 AM
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@Hondo
the 5draw = the flat seventh of the I chord
A simple 3 note bass pattern is Root, Octave, flat 7th. (in degrees of scale)
In cross harp that pattern for the I chord is
2draw, 6blow, 5draw
In cross harp that pattern for the IV chord is
1blow, 4blow, 3draw (actually 3draw bent 1/2 step down)
In cross harp that pattern for the V chord is
1draw, 4draw, 4blow
I hope this helps
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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Hondo
103 posts
Dec 30, 2010
11:01 AM
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What it means Jim is.... I knew it was coming to this and I'm gonna have to learn at least some theory.
Thanks
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hvyj
962 posts
Dec 30, 2010
11:13 AM
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The flat seventh of the I chord is also the flat 3rd of the V chord--a very useful blue note. Draw 5, draw 2** and draw 9 in second position give you that note.
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eharp
1039 posts
Dec 30, 2010
11:34 AM
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you might wanna check this one out, too, hondo.
besides a great value for your entertainment buck, there are lotsa harpersters there and a whole bunch of camp jams that take place.
http://www.beanblossomblues.com/
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Buzadero
679 posts
Dec 30, 2010
11:43 AM
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Before this tangents off irreversably into a theory direction, let me input an endorsement of Belfast's post #198 above. Equally, the MilesD suggestion of post #576. Great informal advice that will do wonders for your re-energy (in spite of that whole demented Miles "Bears" thing....)
These, in addition to the homework suggestions also suggested.
My expansion on this would be to do as Miles suggested. Take your selection of harps and hit "shuffle". Reach over without looking and take one of your harps and try like hell to "make it fit" before the song or cut concludes.
I've done this for hours before while on one of my many drives across the country. Find a radio station. Can be any genre or format. Reach over into the passenger seat and grab a harp. Find the notes that work and work out your scales and available notes from there.
Or....take a tune from your iPod and put it on 'repeat'. Keep taking different harps out and work them for a complete run of the tune. This was a suggestion given to me by Buddha Michalek. It works.
You'll be surprised how this can make your adeptness and comfort increase.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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Hondo
105 posts
Dec 30, 2010
11:47 AM
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@ Buzadero-THANK YOU for all of your comments and a suggestion that I have never heard before.
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jaymcc28
315 posts
Dec 30, 2010
12:59 PM
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@ALL: Wow...this is the type of stuff that I love to see on this forum!
@Hondo: Thanks for posting the OP. When I teach I always tell the clients/students that there are no dumb questions and that if one person has a question then there are probably 5 others in the room with the same question but either are afraid to ask OR don't know enough to ask. I fit the latter on this.
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"I say stay long enough to repay all who cause strife."-L. Staley
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oda
419 posts
Dec 30, 2010
1:07 PM
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@hondo,
Do you have Skype?
The song shuffling is a good idea
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I could be bound by a nutshell and still count myself a king of infinite space
OdaHUMANITY!
Oda's YouTube Channel
Oda's Facebook
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toddlgreene
2373 posts
Dec 30, 2010
1:23 PM
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Something I have done is to play WITHOUT background music, in any key, vocal melodies from memory. Don't worry about what position you are in, or what key someone sang it in-just play the vocal melodies from memory. Any song with a strong melody:showtunes, gospel,rock,Lady GaGa, BeeGees-whatever. Make them work in one place on your harp, then replay them starting elsewhere on the same harp-always trying to stick with the melody. This is great ear training, and will help you find your way around the harp beyond playing scales or licks. Oh, and you can incorporate this into your soloing as well.
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Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2010 2:21 PM
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bonedog569
185 posts
Dec 30, 2010
1:25 PM
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My advice ; Stay inspired. keep your eye/ ear out for music that moves you - then whip your harp out and play along. Be open to new types of music other than Blues. Country and Gospel, rock, - world, - whatever gets you off. If you are stuck in second position, force yourselve to try 3'd (or anything but 2nd).
imho
Learning theory never hurt - and if it interests you - great. But as long as you know what key you are playing in - and what harp you want to use for that key - you can go an awful long way without a lot of theory. You will be a more complete musician with it of course - I'm just saying staying inspired and continued playing - and exploring, is just as important.
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Hondo
106 posts
Dec 30, 2010
2:19 PM
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@jaymcc28- thanks, I'm with you in what I like to see and read.
@oda- I don't have Skype at this moment but probably should load it up and get a camera. What do you have in mind?
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chromaticblues
444 posts
Dec 30, 2010
4:42 PM
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Hondo
Have you learned to play everything you know in 2nd position on holes one thru on holes 7 thru 9. Most people can't play the high fluidly. Practice playing from one end to the other without the tone changing when you get to the 7 hole. Not many people can play from one end to the other without it being noticeable what part of the harp they are on! You have to learn how to gap the high end draw reeds so you can play it effortlessly.
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Aussiesucker
706 posts
Dec 30, 2010
5:05 PM
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Tooka I could have written these words:-
"I don't want to play with a band.
I don't want to just play to backing tracks although I find it a useful exercise.
I know I'll never become a pro.
I just want to play without any accompaniment to please myself but to quite a high level.(But, who knows? If I should become really good this may change).
I want to pull my harp out in company and just "blow them away", so to speak."
At this stage I play & have learn't about 300 tunes mosly by ear. Like Tooka I have been into fast Irish fiddle tunes & bluegrass which do build speed and accuracy and there are a few fiddle tunes I now love.
For 2011 I will throttle back on learning new tunes but I'm a real sucker when I hear something new I like ie I just have to learn it. Instead I will try to concentrate more on adding embellishments, tune variations, playing back up on harp etc. I intend also to invest in some lessons from a pro on skype.
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Miles Dewar
578 posts
Dec 31, 2010
7:17 AM
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@Buzadero,
Are you a Cheesehead? :)
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---Go "2nd seed" Chicago Bears!!!---
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RonnyB
19 posts
Dec 31, 2010
11:19 AM
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It sounds to me that you need to look at David Barretts site Bluesharmonica.com It's well structured and will move you on.Do you know about chorus forms AAA AAB I didn't untill I whent onto this site.Take a look.
Ron
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Hondo
111 posts
Dec 31, 2010
12:28 PM
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Thanks Ron
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kudzurunner
2200 posts
Jan 05, 2011
9:24 AM
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Here's one easy test to find out where you actually are. It immediately separates people who sort of play some bluesy harmonica from people who actually play blues harmonica.
Can you tap your foot, audibly, so you're laying down a steady beat, and play a 12-bar blues, so that you cycle through the I/IV/V changes at the appropriate moment in a way that lets me hear the changes (or imagine them) and so that you play exactly 48 beats (4 beats to a measure, 12 measures)?
No fudging. No "Well, I ALMOST played 48 beats, but I dropped one or two in there."
Just 48 beats: 4 beats--4 toe-taps--per bar, 12 bars. No more, no less.
You can't? Well, there you go. You know what you need to work on. You need to work on every element: the steady beat, the ability to keep the beat with your foot while playing the harp in a way that doesn't simply replicate the beat; the ability to maintain the beat while making the changes; the ability to think melodically on top of all that.
One you can pass this test with a memorized set of notes--and I offer 40-50 different ways of playing through the 12-bar changes in the lessons for sale on this website--then you've got the discipline needed to transform whatever sort of improvisations you're already attempting into actual 12-bar blues.
I'm amazed, stunned, flabbergasted, by the number of players who would call themselves intermediate players and who can't pass this test. They drop a beat somewhere. They don't actually know, at every moment and on every beat, where they are within the 12-bar changes.
The absolute bare-bones minimum required to be a jazz musician is replicating this exercise relative not just to 12-bar blues, but to "I've Got Rhythm," "Satin Doll," and two dozen other standards.
Same for bluesgrass players.
Blues players like us have it easy. All we really have to know is the 12-bar changes. That's the easiest homework assignment a musician in any idiom could have! But a lot of players are slack and lazy and simply don't take the time to master this one thing. And it's THE thing.
Needless to say, every single player on the Top-10 and Second-10 lists on this website could do this--hold to the changes, hit those 48 beats, and improvise like crazy, endlesly, in that mode--and they could do it, if need be, while blasted on dope and booze.
Take the test, everybody. 48 beats. When you can do it once, congratulations! Now improvise ten choruses in a row, or simply string together ten memorized choruses in a row.
Once you've passed that second test, do it in third position and third position. No fancy licks needed. Just play 48 beats every 12 bars, tapping your foot and not losing your place.
The 48 beat test is an absolute, non-negotiable hurdle. If you can't pass it, you're just playing some bluesy harmonica sounds. Anybody can do that on Day 1, so that doesn't get you anywhere. It makes you part of a huge crowd of players who haven't applied themselves with enough focus and self-discipline and patience to cross the bridge.
Please make 2011 the year in which you cross the bridge.
Please self-administer the test today, and record your attempt. Then play it back and count the beats out loud. This places you in the position of your prospective audience. Audiences love bluesy sounds and improvisation, but they also crave the underlying structure. And your fellow musicians DEMAND those 48 beats, like clockwork. Unless you live in small-town Mississippi (like me) and play as a solo act (like me), you need to meet your fellow musicians--in duos, at jam sessions, in bands--halfway.
The 48-beat test tells you whether you're prepared to meet them halfway. If you're not--well, you know what you need to work on.
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2011 9:31 AM
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ncpacemaker
26 posts
Jan 05, 2011
10:44 AM
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Dang it AG !.....you could have just thrown a wet blanket on me ! Oh well, back to the drawing board.
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Maybe I can't play that good but I'm a lot better than people who can't play at all.
Sincerely,
ncpacemaker
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Rasputin
2 posts
Jan 05, 2011
11:27 AM
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I feel a little better about my playing. But I've been playing 12bar progressions for 15 years on guitar. I'm in the 'run out of tricks' category on harp.
Tait Sweigart
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Hondo
114 posts
Jan 05, 2011
11:40 AM
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OK Adam, I beleive and I'm sold. Please point me to the particular lessons that you feel I should purchase and I will begin.
"One you can pass this test with a memorized set of notes--and I offer 40-50 different ways of playing through the 12-bar changes in the lessons for sale on this website--then you've got the discipline needed to transform whatever sort of improvisations you're already attempting into actual 12-bar blues.
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LittleBubba
3 posts
Jan 05, 2011
12:06 PM
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If you're running out of licks, just play ALOT. When I first got turned onto the blues in high school I marvelled at how blues guys could get so many different grooves outa the same 5 or 6 notes. I played all the time when I was young, but having to raise a family took away from playing time ( I quit giggin' altogether ). After the kids grew up I started playin' more, jammin', and giggin' again.
If you immerse yourself in it, over time your licks will come more easily. Doin' a lot of listening definitely helps. I even go to clubs to listen to harpers who I know aren't as "good" as I am (an' I ain't Little Walter) , 'cuz I can usually learn a thing or two from them too.
Learnin' covers definitely helps too, 'cuz it'll force you to learn some techniques & riffs that stretch your barriers.
Patience is a virtue too. Things tend to come in spurts, and you usually are the last person to notice your progress.
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jaymcc28
316 posts
Jan 05, 2011
12:40 PM
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@Hondo: If you've got the $20 you can't go wrong with the "Beginners Special" or even the "Advanced Beginners Special". You get three lessons that work you through the 12-bar progression.
I'm nowhere near as talented as the majority of the guys on this board but when I started 3 years ago I started with these two packages. I was somewhat surprised to hear that a lot of guys can't pass the test Adam mentions here. I can't (yet) jam out true improv but I can certainly keep my place in the progression and cover all 48 beats and I owe it ALL to these lessons.
To anyone: if you can't "pass the test" pick up these lessons. I still use them. In fact, I use the "Beginners Specials" lessons, all combined, as a nice little warm up or even as a quick piece if someone says, "You play harmonica? Let me hear something!".
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"I say stay long enough to repay all who cause strife."-L. Staley
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harpaddict
4 posts
Jan 05, 2011
9:24 PM
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I also think a good addition to Adam's 48 beat test is to extract a lick out of one of your favorite blues songs (the ones Adam sells are fantastic). Figure out where that lick is in the 12 bar progression and then jam with the lick against a jam track. Then work to make the lick your own by playing it differently. I also find that some players are weak in the V-IV-I turnaround so those are good licks to focus on too.
Jon Harl
www.customseydels.com
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hvyj
1003 posts
Jan 06, 2011
6:04 AM
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Are your blow notes as strong as your draw notes? Many blues players tend tend to have weaker tone on blow notes. This is also something to work on as you move through I-IV-V changes. Get your tone evened out as you practice.
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kudzurunner
2207 posts
Jan 06, 2011
7:30 AM
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Well, start by listening to the previews for the following.
"Counting and Playing 12-Bar Blues": an extra-long (45+ minutes) and extra-important lesson for beginning players. In response to popular demand, I've done my best to demystify the 12-bar blues format and help you navigate your way through a foundational experience. This lesson contains one video and two FREE tab sheets!
Harp key: A and C
Video + tabs: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/3116406-Documents-eBooks-Music-Tutorials
"Floyd's Hotel": a 12-bar blues adapted from the J. Geils Band, appropriate for BEGINNING players.
Harp key: C
video: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1727197
tab: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1727190
If they're too easy, move on to these:
"Bittersweet Boogie": an original 12-bar blues for BEGINNERS and ADVANCED BEGINNERS. This song carries a boogie-woogie line through the changes and offers workable technical challenges for developing players, with a focus on tongued articulations and the incorporation of chord rhythms into a continuing melodic structure.
Harp key: C
Video: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1747746
Tab: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1747747
"Same Old Blues": An original 12-bar blues for BEGINNERS and ADVANCED BEGINNERS. Like "Bittersweet Boogie" (above), this is an excellent workout for developing players who don't bend much (or at all) and want to play something that is recognizably a blues. Good synthesis of single note melodies and chord rhythms. Serious blues harp begins here.
Harp key: C
Video: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1747808
Tab: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1747809
"Whistlin' the Blues": an original 12-bar blues head, appropriate for ADVANCED BEGINNERS and BEGINNERS ready for a stiff challenge.
Harp key: C
Video: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1747087
Tab: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1747088
"Down Home" (appropriate for ADVANCED BEGINNERS and INTERMEDIATE players)
harp: C
video: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1746181
tab: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1728662
"Juke 1.0": This is the opening 12-bars of Little Walter's classic instrumental, slightly simplified with the help of lip pursing and single notes rather than tongue-blocked octaves. Perfect for ADVANCED BEGINNERS and INTERMEDIATE players who want to tangle with the real stuff but aren't yet comfortable with tongue-blocking.
Harp: A
Video: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1748399
Tab: www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1748398
That should get you going!
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