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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Half valved harp Help
Half valved harp Help
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sorin
219 posts
Dec 24, 2010
2:25 PM
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After reading and hearing a lot about the half valved diatonics , I decided to give it a try .Instead of getting into a DYI project and to support PT Gazell's work I decided to buy a Seydel Soloist pro valved at the factory , so I went to PT's website and ordered one from his link to the Seydel website.Waited 4 weeks and finally got it yesterday ..and now comes my problem : I cannot get any of the extra blow bends or draw bends on this harp.
When PT talks about bending the half valved extra notes he says its just like any regular draw bends or blow bends, if I try to draw bend the 7 or 8 the only thing I get is a squealing .I can draw bend , blow bend ,overblow all the regular notes on a normal diatonic so I assumed that wouldnt be such a big deal with the HV harp.
The Seydel harp plays just fine as a regular harp but the HV notes ...not much luck...I opened the harp to see if everything is ok inside , and as far as I can tell all the valves are in the right place: 1- 6 draw plate are valved and 7- 10 blow plate are valved.
What am I missing?
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REM
21 posts
Dec 24, 2010
8:05 PM
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It sounds like your using too much "force" on the bends. PT says valved bends are the same as regular bends (which in a way it kind of is), but honestly I think he so use to playing them and it's so ingrained in his technique that he doesn't notice any difference between a regular bend and a valved bend, they just seem completely natural to him now.
For me the main difference between a regular bend and a valved bend is that on a regular bend you can really pull the bend down with some force, but on a valved bend you have to bend the note down very gently. If you use to much force you'll just get that squeeling sound. That's the best way I can think to describe it at the moment, but I'll think about it and see if I can come up with a clearer way of describing what I mean.
BTW, I find it easier to do valved bends on the lower notes. The higher the note the more "gentle" you need to be with the bend. I would suggest starting with maybe an A harp and first work on the blow bends on holes 1 - 6. Also, when I say you need to be gentle, I don't mean you need to play to play the valved bend softly, once you've mastered the technique you can play the bends loud/hard. When I say you need to be "gentle" I'm talking about the so called "bending energy"** you use. You need to be gentle in the way you're pulling the bend down.
**I stole the term "bending energy" from one of Adam's videos.
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2010 8:09 PM
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WinslowYerxa
1 post
Dec 24, 2010
8:20 PM
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I agree that starting with the lower bends is a good idea.
Another thing about valved bends is that because it's only one reed sounding the bend, it resists more than a standard dual-reed bend. So it takes a gentler initiation as noted, but also a firmer sustain. And it takes more finesse to play an accurate pitch if you're bending to another note, as opposed to just expressively sliding up to or down from an unbent note.
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jim
594 posts
Dec 24, 2010
10:40 PM
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Increase gaps. You will never be able to use valve bends on low gapping. And looks like that's what's missing.
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Kyzer Sosa
926 posts
Dec 24, 2010
10:45 PM
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REM, i could type some too, but you pretty much covered all the bases
i might add, practice the 7 draw bend (the most awesome note for blues stuff, IMO) till you figure out just how much force and how far you can bend it, because it will quit on you with too much oompf, the secret is staying just this side of quit eh?
additionally, i had to work on the gapping slightly for it to play to my tastes, you might try widening it a bit from stock...maybe PT will chime in on this too.
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jim
595 posts
Dec 24, 2010
10:55 PM
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If you don't know how to do it, check the learning center on the website below.
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PT
71 posts
Dec 25, 2010
5:04 AM
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Merry Christmas,
Thank you all for adding your thoughts on this. In part all of you are correct. As far as the gapping goes I suspect that to be less of a problem since it came from Seydel and should be set up close to what I do. The force of air and how it's directed is more likely the issue. Winslow correctly points out that single reed bends will resist and must be approached in a slightly different manner. Think more along the lines of bending a note on the chromatic. The difference is that your instrument is only half valved and will have a deeper bend once you get the hang of it. Yes, I have been doing it for so long that I tend to forget that I had to learn how to do it as well. I would suggest you start by learning to blow bend hole 6. This is the first one I did and in second position results in the major 7th...a very useful note for melody playing. Once you get the feel of moving the reed you should be able to fine tune it to fit your style. What Key did you get? REM points out that the higher the reed, which is also shorter, the more difficult it is. I also agree with this. Try playing the bends with a more relaxed approach till you get the feel for it. Then you can adjust your gapping to fit how hard or soft you want to play.
Merry Christmas
PT
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"Life...10 Holes & 20 Reeds At A Time"
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PT
72 posts
Dec 25, 2010
5:11 AM
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P.S.
Every time this comes up I review what I do and I still contend that my technique for blow bending holes 8 and 9 (no valves) is the same for blow bending holes 5 & 6 with valves. I may be crazy but if you can do that you should be able to do this as well. I also add that we all have to ask ourselves how well do we bend notes with out valves? Can you hit them spot on? Can you get to the correct pitch? Can you maintain the bend? This technique is not a magic bullet but rather another approach to filling in the missing notes.
PT
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"Life...10 Holes & 20 Reeds At A Time"
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nacoran
3486 posts
Dec 25, 2010
4:11 PM
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Winslow Yerxa? Hey, I've heard of you! You are the discrete comb guy! Welcome aboard!
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sorin
220 posts
Dec 27, 2010
5:47 PM
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Thanks everybody for your suggestions.
To clarify a couple of things: I am not a hard blower , I consider myself a very soft blower , I play very relaxed , and I can sustain all the bends including overblows .The key of the harp is Bb , which I choose because I wanted a middle range harmonica , I wanted to make sure, again, that I start on the right foot.
Now , my first post came after I have tried to bend the 5, 6, 7,8 holes without much luck, I gave up that day ....the next day I tried the 4 hole and BAM there was the blow bend , just like PT said, very similar with the 8 or 9 blow bends. Than I tried the 5 hole...and nothing, I could feel the air escaping , and the same thing when I tried the 6 hole . I opened the harp , and looked closer at the comb ,it was a mess, the material used to seal the inside of the comb was also on a couple of spots on the side, around the 5 and 6 hole and at the end where the cover screws go , forming rough spots and less than perfect seal between the plates and comb.
I have zero experience with wood combs, and that's why I didn't noticed it the first time I opened the harp .I looked up a couple of videos on how to flat sand the comb and give it a try. I put the harp back together , and now the 5 and 6 blow bends sound much better, but still don't get the 7 and 8 . I am still not sure I sanded the comb properly.
And now I am back to the thing I was trying to avoid from the start , the question "Is it me , or the harp ?" ... I ordered the harp from Seydel to avoid this question and also I got the Soloist Pro because they claimed it has a much better comb.... I still cannot believe that the guy that got the valves on didn't notice the crap on the comb.
This is my first experience with Seydel products and it is a very disappointing one, and what is sad is that PT 's name is kinda caught in the middle. I was thinking about returning the harp , but than I looked at their return policy and if you tried any kind of repairs on it , they don't take it back ..... I guess $60 down the drain...
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jim
602 posts
Dec 28, 2010
1:42 AM
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damnit don't be lazy!
GAP IT!
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sorin
221 posts
Dec 28, 2010
8:49 AM
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Jim , I am not lazy ,only very busy. I did spent a lot of time on trying to get the right gaps .PT talks about the need for wider gaps , and when I bought the harp they promised a set up according with PT's method , but the gaps were very low , lower than you would expect on a regular stock harp .I guess the tech just glued the valves in and he was done.
Jim , when you talk about gaps on a HV , what exactly do you mean? The way I see it , you would only need a bigger gap on the reed that is not valved , and the one that is valved should be a regular or lower gap . Am I right?
Thanks for your input.
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jim
604 posts
Dec 28, 2010
10:12 AM
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yes the gap of the isolated reed should be adjusted - but you might want to play with both gaps a bit because after changing one you may need to adjust the other too. I mean regular bends etc.
no mass-produced harmonica will play perfect.
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PT
74 posts
Dec 28, 2010
11:04 AM
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Sorin,
I read your post this morning and was surprised to say the least! You contacted me on Christmas Eve about this and I took the time to answer your concerns on Christmas day. I posted that to this thread. In the email I sent to you personally, I also said that if you continued to have issues I would be glad to help. I never got a reply or a thank you. I saw your only response in this forum.
I talked with Rupert Oysler this morning and he says that your order was placed on December 8th. He sent you the harmonica on December 20th. You wrote me on December 24th. By my count that's 15 or 16 days to receive this from Germany and not 4 weeks. I would say that is an acceptable amount of time for a special order such as this.
Without playing your harmonica we are all speculating on what, if any, the issue is. Perhaps you can record a short clip of you trying to blow bend the notes in question and I can see if I hear something that would shed some light.
Seydel has, and always will stand by their products. Rather than post something bad about a company and it's products, I would have contacted Rupert first to see what he thought about the situation. I promise you he would of had you send it back for evaluation regardless of your attempt at sanding the comb.
Yes my name is attached to this product and it does concern me. Since September, when Seydel and I introduced this as an option for the diatonic, there has been hundreds of very happy customers.
You can email Rupert at this address:
rupert.oysler@seydel1847.com
Let us all know what his response is.
PT
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"Life...10 Holes & 20 Reeds At A Time"
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sorin
223 posts
Dec 28, 2010
5:42 PM
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PT I didn't write you back because I didn't want to bother you too much and I kinda assumed that we gonna continue the discussion here. You did respond promptly to my first email and I thank you for that.
I didn't check the invoice when I mentioned the 4 weeks in my original post, I guess because I was anxious about my little Christmas gift, it seemed much longer to me...but anyways, it was not intended as a reproach to Seydel, actually considering that it came from Germany was pretty fast.
You keep mentioning the name Rupert , and I have to say that I don't know who this person is.
I didn't say anything bad about Seydel or about their harmonicas, I didn't say that Seydel sucks or that their harmonicas
are bad , I only said that MY experience was disappointing . I understand that when you produce a lot of"anything" some will come out not so good.
I was thinking about returning it, but I wasn't too excited about the idea because:
1. They say that of you mess with the harp , which I did, the warranty is voided
2. They want you to ship it PREPAID , which, if my understanding of english is correct (english is not my first language), it means that I have to pay more money. Now this thing just doesn't feel right to me.
3.when you order to a customizer a harp with an overblow setup, I think the customizer knows how to play overblows so that he can make sure the harp its right. Considering the harmonica that I got, I assume that the tech that set it up didn't try to see if the bends work ( I guess he is not even allowed, for sanitary reasons) , he might test it with the tool they use for the regular harp to see if the normal notes still play, but that doesn't mean much.
So considering all this factors, I wasn't too inclined to go trough the process of returning it , and I tried to fix the comb by myself.
Anyway,PT , I thank you again for your help, and I hope that I didn't cause you too much trouble , that was not my intention.
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PT
76 posts
Dec 29, 2010
4:43 AM
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No trouble at all...you should contact Rupert if you believe there is something not right with your instrument. He is the president of Seydel USA. Seydel and I want you to be satisfied.
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"Life...10 Holes & 20 Reeds At A Time"
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