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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
MBH forum redesign
MBH forum redesign
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GermanHarpist
1920 posts
Dec 19, 2010
2:50 AM
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Quoting Adams post from the MBH evolution thread:
/I'm finally catching my breath in Copenhagen after four clinic/gigs in four days in three different countries, but I'll chime in to say: I had a long talk with GermanHarpist in Munster and I told him that at this point, I'm entirely open to various suggestions about how to upgrade/modify this forum. Nothing is off the table. But there's one proviso:
At this point, about two-thirds of the traffic on the entire MBH website comes from the forum. Slowly, over the past two years, that percentage has risen. I'm sure everybody here can appreciate that, IF POSSIBLE, I'd like to find a solution that doesn't simply throw that web traffic away.
The problem in the past has been that my web platform, macwebsitebuilder.com, has a very limited functionality for forums. Basically, what we've got at the MBH forum right now is all that they enable. It's very primitive. I've like that up until now, because I like the idea of p. 1 here giving you an immediate read on "the street" in the blues harmonica world. What's on your mind? What are people talking about? Go to p. 1. That's how the forum at letsrun.com is set up, and I like it.
But at this point, we need more moderator action, and the moderators need more power. And p. 1 has such a proliferation of topics that I think we're at a tipping point where SOME division of threads into different sub-areas (gear, concerts, news, OT, for example) might be a good idea. Maybe just four areas, like that.
I do NOT want an entire redesign of my website. That's a separate issue. But I'm quite open to the idea of giving a few trusted members of this forum--people with the necessary knowledge and skills and interest--free reign, and full responsibility for, the redesigning of the MBH forum. My one proviso: please find a way of installing the forum, or linking it, so that my overall web traffic isn't decimated. I don't know if that's possible. I do know that Oda and several others have contacted me over the past 18 months with suggestions.
Somebody, please start another thread and share ideas, open-source style, about how a forum redesign that achieves these goals. Is there a pre-fab forum, for example, that might be somehow shoehorned into this website. Or is there a way of requiring that everybody who wants to participate in a "new" forum get there via a link on my website? I don't know. But at this point I know I need help, and I agree that a transition to something larger and newer is required.
New thread, please! Call it: MBH forum redesign.
--Adam /
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2010 2:59 AM
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GermanHarpist
1921 posts
Dec 19, 2010
2:58 AM
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So here goes the situation as I see it:
It could be that the people of macwebsitebuilder make an exception and let Adam start a forum on their server. It depends on what they are willing to change technically.
When doing it indepndent of macwebsitebuilder, either...
the forum is on a different address than MBH and thus the hits don't get counted.
or the whole site has to migrate...
So, I think the best thing would be that Adam talks to the guys from macwebsitebuilder.com to see what they are willing to do.
I'd like to put some more thought and research into the whole matter, but I don't have time at the moment. So I'll just kick it off...
Any other ideas?
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2010 3:04 AM
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oda
378 posts
Dec 19, 2010
7:02 AM
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Hey GH,
Since Adam is adamant about keeping the forum here on the server -- your idea of contacting macwebsitebuilder is a safe bet. However, I doubt they'll make an exception.
Alternatively, and this requires a little more doing. We can get a server and host the forum there, even giving it its own unique address (ie. mbhforum.com) and when the "blues harp forum" link is clicked, it redirected to the external forum link.
If the forum resides on another server, it can be seen as a "sister site" -- and certain non-intrusive ads can be placed in the forum (google adsense?) and profits directly sent to Adam.
Last year I ran a specialty blog that attracted 1000 unique visitors a month. Most of those visitors were loyal readers, so when I made a request for them to "click the ads" as I get a pay-per-click (mere cents) however, it added up, and I was making 200-300$/month.
Anyway, with money aside and all that. I think the best idea is to move to another server, install the forum there, and assign the forum a unique web address; that way, Adam keeps his current site, still has a link to his forum, and the mods/readers can enjoy a new and modern (teehee) forum.
This requires some finances, though.
Server: at least 110$ / yearly
Domain: 9$ / yearly
Estimated Investment Required: 119$ per year
PS. With the above server, we'd also be able to install a live-chat, as Kyzer had suggested.
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I could be bound by a nutshell and still count myself a king of infinite space
OdaHUMANITY!
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Arnoud73
30 posts
Dec 19, 2010
7:06 AM
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Here is a copy of my reaction at the MBH evolution topic:
Just check out our Dutch bluesharpforum and see how that structure works very well.
We are with seven moderators, each for differend topics, and we have a part on the forum which only the moderators can see/use. There we discus problems and improvements.
It's very readable, there is space for non-harmonica subjects, and people who don't behave will be warned and if needed banned...
Because of the structure all the information and knowledge don't disappear in this endless line off subjects. So you don't see the same question over and over again...
Here is our adress:
www.bluesharp.nl
By the way: I like this forum very much as it is!!
But I think it's a bit difficult to moderate it.
Greetz Arnoud
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pharpo
476 posts
Dec 19, 2010
7:12 AM
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I'm not a tech guy buy could there just be a link from MBH hompage to the new chat page?
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Procrastinator Emeritus
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oda
379 posts
Dec 19, 2010
7:32 AM
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Yknow, on second thought, if a new forum is implemented we'd have to start from scratch... And lose all these threads and posts.
Perhaps the best solution is to simply invest in a chat room, and leave this forum as is?
When things get outta control it's a "tAke it to the chat" type of thing
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I could be bound by a nutshell and still count myself a king of infinite space
OdaHUMANITY!
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arzajac
403 posts
Dec 19, 2010
7:33 AM
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I've offered before and that offer still stands.
I run a number of websites from one, for all intents-and-purpose, unlimited hosting account.
I use Drupal to host multiple web sites from one hosting account. Drupal is very flexible and easy to use for the user.
As Adam asks, to have traffic from the forum be a part of the overall MBH.com traffic is not truly possible unless all sections of the site are run from the same website. In other words, if you host the forum on another server, nothing will stop people from bypassing the MBH site completely.
That would decimate MBH traffic.
My suggestion is to reimplement the MBH site completely using Drupal. It would take me less than an afternoon to copy and paste all the pages and organize the menus and such. I can add a forum section that has as many bells and whistles as would be needed. That includes the various methods of moderation, search functionality, recent posts and whatnot.
I know Adam has not asked for a redesign of his website. What I am suggesting is a transplant of sorts, and not a redesign. The end result would look almost the same as the current website.
Adam, that would change how you manage the site completely and I know that's not what you want. But, in trying to find the solution for the overall problem, I think that there is no better solution.
My hosting is paid for so the cost would be zero. Adam, you would be the only user able to modify the site. Drupal is robust and secure. Thousands of sites use it to serve a community just like this. The software is actively maintained and I keep it up-to-date because I have clients that rely on me to do that.
As well, you keep the domain name, so the final ownership of the site will always remain yours. You have final control over your site, not me.
Adam, if this is not completely out of the question, then you can contact me. I will be on vacation starting tomorrow and this is just the sort of project I would love to get done on my free time.
Alternatively, if you do want to run a forum on another site, I can host that as well. For free. I think that's more of a band-aid solution, but I can do it if that's what you want.
Please let me know if anyone has and questions, I'm more than happy to help. I've gotten so much for free, I want to give back.
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arzajac
405 posts
Dec 19, 2010
7:37 AM
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Here are a few of my sites:
http://ubuntu-rescue-remix.org/
http://andrewzajac.ca/
http://oscp.ca/node
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MrVerylongusername
1420 posts
Dec 19, 2010
8:32 AM
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The way everyone is talking about a chat room makes it sound like a breeding ground for tension, animosity and ill-feelings. Sending disagreements off to the chatroom isn't going to resolve anything; it's just going to breed more hostility which will then return to the forum.
I think we need:
A black and white set of rules; the creed is just too 'grey' - open to interpretation.
IP logging and banning.
3 strikes and you're out.
The only one that couldn't be done straightaway is the IP logging and maybe Macwebsitebuilder coud do that if they were asked.
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RyanMortos
923 posts
Dec 19, 2010
9:34 AM
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I like the chat room idea. Or we could just link to True Chromatic's Chat (haven't had a chance to visit sorry!)? I also think utilizing readily available forum templates as been mentioned in the past would work well and just have a link from MBH to that.
I have experience with web development (like a 2nd job, I'm highly skilled with HTML & CSS and I'm okay with javascript/Jquery. Plus I'm always looking for excuses to add ASP.net to my repertoire :) ) & would offer some time to the project if we are looking for volunteers. Sounds to me arzajac has more time for this though :) .
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2010 9:35 AM
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nacoran
3431 posts
Dec 19, 2010
11:25 AM
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Organizing:
If I was designing the look of the forum page, I'd have a main page, where all the threads get posted, but I'd also, right at the top of the page, I'd have a few radio buttons that you could use as filters. They'd start all checked, which would give you the full content of all the threads just like we have now. Then, you could uncheck the categories you weren't interested in. So, for instance, if you had buttons for Amplification, Harps, Customizing, Music, Off Topic etc. you could uncheck those buttons and those threads would disappear from the list.
When you started a new thread you would get the same radio buttons option. You could click the topics that apply. This would give you a bunch of options for how to display the forum. You could essentially make your own lists.
It would be nice if you could search your own posts and your own threads separately (or even search by name; if you know BBQ said something but you don't remember where he said it it would be nice to find that quickly.
Moderators:
As for moderators, right now we can delete posts or threads or say something. Instead of a full fledged delete power, the ability to flag a remark, which would collapse it in the thread, would be nice. People could still open it up. It's basically the YouTube system. If users had the ability to flag a comment as spam or whatever, it could, instead of collapsing the comment just bring it to the attention of a moderator, (perhaps moderators could have a radio button option for flagged threads. Maybe some time limit ban options would be nice. I think it would be useful to have bans that weren't permanent as a tool. Maybe give mods 2 hr. ban powers and give Adam a tool for longer, non-permanent bans or however long he feels is appropriate. So moderators would gain a 2 hr. ban, and a flagging option. Maybe a 24 lock thread option that Adam could turn off once he reviewed it.
Right now moderators can edit people's threads. That should automatically create a little flag so people know when that's been done, and maybe even a 'see original' option. (Right now it shows that it has been edited, but not by who.) I don't think anyone has abused this, but it's possible to do. I use it sometimes to help people fix HTML if they are having a hard time posting something.
Look:
I really like the cleanness of the interface. The simple red and whit creates really clear fields.
Security:
As for security, Honeypot Captchas would be nice. Another anti-spam option would be to let other members in good standing add a little + to your comment, one + per post, until you reached say 25 non-spam posts, at which point the captcha system would assume you aren't a spammer and stop bugging you. (It wouldn't be one of those full fledged member ratings systems. I hate those. They create a popularity contest. This would just be to verify that you are in fact a human being.
(I've seen all of these ideas implemented on one site or another.)
Posting:
I'd also like to see some HTML assist buttons on top of the post box. You press the button and it inserts the HTML code for whichever button you pressed. Common ones are link, audio, video, image.
It would also be nice if you could put a profile pic in your pictures to the left, instead of as part of you signature.
Revenue-
Even keeping the pages looking clean, there is probably space for something like Google Adsense. I think maybe the store could be expanded a bit too. Adam, you have a great community of musicians here. Maybe you could have a page where you could sell their music! You get a cut, they get a cut, it builds a sense of community... Other ideas to sell...
Chat Rooms:
Well, you either love them or hate them or (worry about them). Another possibility is private messaging and group private messaging. That seems a little scarier at first. In that system anyone involved in the exchange should have a way to save them in an uneditable format in case there ever was a harassment issue. A master list of member profiles would be nice too. Members of course could choose how much to share, but it would make a private messaging system easier to navigate.
The only other thing I can think of right now, is maybe to keep things organized on the left column, have categories that you can expand, so, if you clicked on 'Buy Music' that menu would expand to show a list of names of artists. If you clicked on the artist it could take you to their site page were you could buy tracks or whole albums, maybe have a 'preview'. Just brainstorming...
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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nacoran
3433 posts
Dec 19, 2010
11:44 AM
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Oh, and a way for a mod to combine threads! Sometimes we have 3 threads on the same topic going at the same time and 30 more on the same subject in the archives. If we could combine threads it would be a great way to put useful information together!
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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arzajac
406 posts
Dec 19, 2010
12:22 PM
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So far, nothing that has been mentioned here seems like a problem.
I can set up a demo site. I have a five hour drive tomorrow, but after that, I can get to work on this.
I can set up something and if people don't like what that can do, I can set up a few other things. If after I have tried everything in my arsenal nobody likes anything I offer, no hard feelings... There are plenty of people who can do this.
I know there was talk about a wiki-type website. I can do that too along with the forum. One in the same.
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kudzurunner
2138 posts
Dec 19, 2010
12:36 PM
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Thanks for the many suggestions. One thing is clear: a number of you have given a lot of thought to this; you've got lot of interesting ideas; you've all got strong personalities; and you don't all agree on what the optimal solution is.
And some people, as another thread makes clear, don't think the forum needs a redesign at all.
I'll reiterate what I said at the beginning: I don't want to redesign my site--and "redesign," for the time being, includes migrating the whole site to another server. That's not in the cards right now.
There are two things that I can and will do when I get home, and they'll make a difference: I'll give Nacoran and Buzadero full access to the site, not just moderator access, so that they can lock threads; and I'll contact Macwebsite builder admins to find out what my options are.
I'm on the road until the 28th and won't be able to give anything in this thread serious consideration until the beginning on the new year.
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kudzurunner
2139 posts
Dec 19, 2010
12:50 PM
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Actually, I'm going to make Nacoran an administrator the moment he sends me his email address.
Buzadero, you are currently the only other moderator. If you wish to continue, please send me your phone number and I'll sign you on as an administrator as well.
We need one more volunteer to be a moderator/administrator. You will have full power to delete threads and do the other things that I do to keep this place in order.
I would prefer a longtimer. Y'all know who you are. I would also prefer "by popular assent." Please feel free to suggest names. You may do that here or start a new thread, as you see fit. I could use some backup; we've been at least one quart of oil low since GermanHarpist decamped and Nate and Buzz deserve a third Texas Ranger.
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arzajac
407 posts
Dec 19, 2010
12:52 PM
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I understand.
I will create a demo site which will include only a stand-alone forum. That site, if put into production can be linked to from the MBH website.
I can offer the following choices to start:
-Just a forum powered by phpBB.
-Just a forum powered by Drupal.
-A MBH community site (forum, wiki and chatroom) (powered by Drupal)
I will post when the site is live and so people can try different things and tweak the hell out of it.
Anyway, whatever solution we end up with I am looking forward to being able to search posts, display new posts since the last time I logged in and uploading photos into posts. That's all *I* want for Christmas...
Again, I have my opinions about what will work and what won't, but I will bow to whatever consensus there is.
EDIT: Also, I would like to apply for the moderator job, Adam...
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Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2010 12:54 PM
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kudzurunner
2141 posts
Dec 19, 2010
1:14 PM
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@arzajac: Rather than you taking unilateral action, I would prefer that the entire process work by consensus. This isn't about what you would like for Christmas. This is about what this community decides would be best for this community. I'm happy to make you one member of a three- or four-person committee charged with exploring the issue--after this thread has run its course. For the time being, please don't start creating shadow forums. There's time for that later. Thanks.
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GermanHarpist
1922 posts
Dec 19, 2010
1:21 PM
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Yes, I think someone experienced like arzajac would be of great help. Thanks for the offer.
Another thing which would be nice, as mentioned by Arnoud, is a separate section for the moderators to discuss their actions. Like this, problems brewing, rogue members and threads can be discussed and a concensus among the moderators can be found.
Nacoran, a lot of very cool ideas... Especially the one of tagging threads (thus still keeping the one main page) I like a lot.
One more idea that I just want to throw out there is the tutoring system,... which I still think would be great. A nice way of matching people that want to teach and that want to learn...
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2010 1:25 PM
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arzajac
409 posts
Dec 19, 2010
1:47 PM
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Sure.
I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear enough that I am not interested in taking unilateral action. I did mention that if people are not interested in what I can offer there will be no hard feelings and that there are many other people who can do this. I am all about consensus.
I just thought it would be a great way for people (not just me) to experiment with the concepts we are discussing here. It's one thing to describe the bells and whistles of various websites but the only way for everyone (especially those who are less computer oriented) to have a good idea of what is being discussed is if they can see it in action for themselves.
Nothing about the demo site I am suggesting is permanent or any commitment at all. I think it's part of the process, though. Some of the solutions mentioned could involve some investment (if using other hosting providers or using store-bought software)- I can show you what it would look like before you pay someone.
My motivation is to give something back. I have no intentions of running this forum. I do not assume that whatever I do here will result in my getting special status or anything. I just want to help and, for me, setting up this sort of thing is no work at all. The same goes for my application for the moderator job. If you need the help, I can pitch in.
I'd be happy to set up a demo site for the committee charged with exploring the issue. Just say when. I can be on that committee if you like, or if others want me to be. If you or they don't want me to be, that's fine too...
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Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2010 2:19 PM
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Kyzer Sosa
915 posts
Dec 19, 2010
1:58 PM
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I don't understand the logic that a chat room would be a breeding ground for insults and in general debauchery. If anything, chat rooms I've frequented in the past have done exactly the opposite. They've only served to bring people together. It's far more personal than sending an attack and refreshing your screen in hopes that the other guy has read what you wrote, and replied.
Additionally, I believe a chat room would encite more quality posts on the forum due to ideas exchanged there that may lead to even greater ideas for post for all to see.
The chat room idea is simply my idea that I tossed out there, it never had to be the end all fix for what ails us. IMO, there will always be tension of some kind, no matter what strides are taken to stop them. It's in our nature to fight amongst ourselves.
Perhaps stronger moderation is in order, many times valuable information is traded, but an insult is thrown in at the end. A moderator should have the power to delete things within a post should the rest of it remain relevant. I visit the site every day, and have never broken the golden rules, I'd be happy to be a deputy of cleanliness here.
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
"Music in the soul can be heard by the universe." - Lao Tzu
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GermanHarpist
1923 posts
Dec 19, 2010
1:59 PM
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Adam,... as far as I understand you wish to keep the editing interface of macwebsitebuilder (thus keeping your website on their server) and naturally you want to keep the hits on this address so that the google ranking of MBH.com is preserved... so the forum should still be hosted under the same IP as the rest of the site.
AFAIK, this leaves the only option of macwebsitebuilder offering you a more extended forum.
So either they change their forum architecture, accessed again through some kind of interface. Which they may do,... however it's a lot of work and it will probably only result in minor cosmetic changes.
To implement the ideas mentioned in this thread you really need thorough access to their servers, which they will never allow.
The content of this site is excellent. However the architecture of macwebsitebuilder that results in the awkward design of having this long list of links on the left side and the underdimensioned forum makes it obvious that macwebsitebuilder never intentioned having a site of this magnitude being build on their structure.
Moving the website means that the editing interface would be different however, it mustn'd be more complicated. Then all the hits would be counted to MBH.com, and you would have total liberty of designing the website/forum any way you want.
Sorry to be the bringer of bad news... however, if you want to change anything this is the only sensible choice that I see.
The alternative is, we stick to this forum and leave things as be.
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2010 2:07 PM
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MrVerylongusername
1423 posts
Dec 19, 2010
2:14 PM
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@Kyzer
Some people are unable to moderate themselves in the regular forum, so how can taking disagreements to a chatroom help? That was how I understood the original proposal for a chat room was intended. A kind of gloves off, no holds barred area where disagreeing parties are encouraged to 'sort it out' away from the forum. Personally I think that's madness.
Chat rooms per se are OK, I used the one on harmonicaspace for a while. The traffic on this site is so high that many threads are almost like real-time chat anyway. A chat area would be a little value-added touch, but I don't see a chat room solving any of the problems MBH has which are more about controlling very strong personalities with differing opinions. Software, design, functionality; none of those are the real problem; although I concede that moderators tools could be better.
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tookatooka
1948 posts
Dec 19, 2010
2:30 PM
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Adam has invested an awful lot of time and work into the site and forum and I can understand any reluctance to make any changes.
But, if it was me and I wanted to migrate to a more flexible platform in which to market my wares and myself I would consider running another site in parallel and gradually move over, over a period of 12 months. This would ensure links back and forth between the sites can become established.
There is no pain-free solution to this one but a gradual transition would IMO be best.
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harmonicanick
1030 posts
Dec 19, 2010
2:52 PM
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Has this forum exceeded its shelf life?
Bands do, more than 2 years and thst's pretty long..
Let's face it,all the lessons and instruction, and scales and the hardware, and the customs, and the amps and the pedals and the grommits and the bends and the blows and overblows have been endlessly discussed, disected, distributed and are freely available on this forum...
What's left...
Chat, gossip, criticism, piss taking, anger and self righteous indignation and accusation..
Or,
Praise, encourgement, belief, wisdom and truth..
Information is not knowledge
knowledge is not truth
truth is not wisdom
Truth is music
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captainbliss
336 posts
Dec 19, 2010
3:13 PM
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Thoughts RE site migration:
1. As tookatooka says, a new site can be run in parallel and migration can happen gradually,
2. If traffic / hits / search engine rankings are an issue, then we - the users - can help the new site by clicking lots, blogging / tweeting / facebooking links, adding links to our own websites (if we have them), working together to get a press release all over the internet,
3. If $$$ is an issue, I'll happily donate a few $$$ to get things started (once up and running, ad revenue from a new, improved site should pay for itself),
4. A new website including a mobile-optimised version, RSS feeds from forum threads, etc may well generate much more traffic in surprisingly quick time.
5. The expertise and goodwill of a (growing) community may present Adam with a terrific business opportunity that's screaming "grab me,"
6. There's no need to rush anything,
7. 'Cos 7's lucky...
Just thoughts!
xxx
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jonlaing
154 posts
Dec 19, 2010
5:05 PM
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I personally think arzajac's suggestion of building a demo site to demonstrate the functionality of modern forum platforms would be very helpful in the process.
He could make it password protected so that only the "committee" can access it and work out the kinks, ensuring there is no "shadow" site. This is how a lot of redesigns are done in the web development world.
I've done it several times myself where I create all the new sections, but password protect them, so only the clients can see the changes (Everyone else gets an HTTP 401 error and can be redirected accordingly), and then when we want them to go live to the world, I just take the password protection off and update all the links on the front end.
Social networking tools is also an interesting idea. Having "Facebook Like" and "Tweet This" buttons for threads to attract would-be contributors to the site. It could drive traffic and forum activity way up in a positive way.
If you wanna see an example of that, my blog (http://jonlaing.tumblr.com) has a "tweet this" button for each of the posts, but we could do it for each thread for tidiness' sake.
Anyway, I don't think this forum is fundamentally broken, but I also think it could be even better, and with so many people enthusiastic about improving the forum, I think only good can come of it.
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Kyzer Sosa
916 posts
Dec 19, 2010
5:40 PM
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ok... stop assuming that a chat room would be nothing more than a place where people can vent their frustrations towards one another. no one said anything about it being implemented or encouraged for that purpose. if you think that's all that would happen, that's really just too bad. theres more to it than that. ive seen it work for other sites and see NO bickering on the forums whatsoever...that behavior certainly wasnt my intent in offering it up as an idea. its simply a way of carrying on a conversation in real time, much as they are on the threads, and keeping them from having two people dominate an otherwise helpful thread that has the POSSIBILITY of turning negative. and even if it does, the chat room keeps the good info clean. The FACT is that no length of creed will stop two people here from disagreeing and letting each other know about it. none. its evidenced so clearly.
I dont care what solution, revision, etc. that comes up. Hell, it can stay just as it is and im fine with that...Im just trying to help.
if you think a chat room isnt it, offer up another solution. that's what this thread is all about. telling us that we should all just chill doesnt work. telling us to be better towards one another just doesnt work. using moderation or tools to ensure its continued growth has a better chance than any of that.
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
"Music in the soul can be heard by the universe." - Lao Tzu
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LeonStagg
202 posts
Dec 19, 2010
5:52 PM
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I think Kyser would be a good choice for a third moderator.
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oda
381 posts
Dec 19, 2010
5:56 PM
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I would also add my vote to nominate; kyzer
For mod/admin position.
I would like to offer my expertise to the "committe" if there will be one, for setting up the new forum.
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I could be bound by a nutshell and still count myself a king of infinite space
OdaHUMANITY!
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KingoBad
540 posts
Dec 19, 2010
8:11 PM
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I want to be able to chat with Kyzer, and Leonstagg, and harpwrench, and Adam, and anyone else who would show up. You can have the option to silence individuals on a chat anyway (to your eyes). If you didn't like the option - just don't go to the chat. You can learn a lot - and you can be bored to tears. Sometimes just listening to two pros chat is as enlightening as anything.
You can also ban flamers and jackasses just the same, and anyone could log the problems and send it to a mod if need be.
I like the tutor idea too. Perhaps a separate chat area where people could sit and wait for someone who could use a tutor or could be a tutor.
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captainbliss
338 posts
Dec 20, 2010
3:58 AM
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@KingoBad:
/I like the tutor idea too./
So do I.
In fact, the idea of a few separate "ranks" (visible next to posting name) for members could be really useful?
We can, I think, easily agree on who the experts are?
For example...
Someone like harpwrench could have "custom harp expert." Someone like Greg Heumann could have "mic expert." People like barbecuebob and kudzurunner could have "pro player." These could be searchable, so all users (registered and unregistered) could search for posts by term and level of contributor?
And...
If one of the aims is to support Adam's business (which it ought to be), a more advanced platform will allow certain functionalities to be registered-user only. Good for expanding mailing lists, etc.
Furthermore...
I suspect there will be a positive correlation between making it easier for users to get quality information and rising site traffic?
Thoughts?
EDIT: forgot the "xxx!" Tsk, tsk...
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2010 3:59 AM
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saregapadanisa
310 posts
Dec 20, 2010
6:22 AM
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Interesting posts !
I don't want to sound conceptual and am only speaking for myself, but I've never considered this forum as a place to seek organised information, but as a place to share information. And that's a difference.
I like the way everything is up there, unclassified. I more than often drop by just to see what's up, not because i'm after something in particular. (and don't you dare to tell me you're not doing the same :o)
e.g. I'm glad to click and watch a new vid posted by a member, and maybe write a few words of appreciation. I'm not sure I would click on the "members' new vids" entry if it was classified.
I also got a wealth of info here on things I couldn't imagine would interest me. Just because it's there. And I'm glad I did.
All in all, I like the easy going dazibao form, no classification, no expert tag, new posts first, everyone on the same level. Just the spirit of sharing. And I find it very welcoming for new members.
I understand that some old timers may be sort of fed up with the same questions being asked again and again. But what counts is that questions are answered, as they never fail to be. That's what a community (if the term makes sense) is about.
Yet, there is a point in managing the archives. Nacoran's thread organiser is a great tool, but all done by hand. Maybe a closed list of (searchable) tags to choose from when starting a thread would be a good non-obstrusive solution, if it could be implemented. But people are not always good at indexing themselves, let alone find a descriptive title for their threads.
As for all the strategems to avoid heated threads, I guess it all boils down to us people, and the way we behave.
My only real concern with the forum as it is is having to go all the way up to get to the next page of the thread when there is one. Well, for the time being, I can live with that.
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captainbliss
343 posts
Dec 20, 2010
7:00 AM
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@saregapadanisa:
/All in all, I like the easy going dazibao form, no classification, no expert tag, new posts first, everyone on the same level. [...] As for all the strategems to avoid heated threads, I guess it all boils down to us people, and the way we behave./
I notice that there are contradictory ideas (yours and mine, for example) being shared in this thread with no rancour whatsoever.
Isn't that nice?
/Yet, there is a point in managing the archives/
Perhaps the expert tags could be invisible and still searchable? Say, for example, that I'm a new user. I don't know who's who or what's what. I'm interested in tone. So... I do a search. Wouldn't it be great for me to have the results returned along with "would you like to see (a) what everyone on the forum has to say or (b) what the (democratically) acknoweldged forum experts have to say?"
EDIT: maybe there can also be a (results being visible? invisible? on the "live" thread) "like" button, so that the most "liked" threads / posts on a topic can also be returned?
EDIT: Thinking about it, I think some kind of ranking system would be hugely beneficial for the sharing of information. Say, for example, that I wanted to find out about the merits of brand x / y / z harmonica. I can recall posts that would be extremely helpful and some that might, er, be less so... Having a way to differentiate between these is, I think, very much in the "spirit of sharing" (lovely phrase!)
xxx
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2010 7:11 AM
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6SN7
126 posts
Dec 20, 2010
7:47 AM
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Adam, my two cents. You and your moderators need to do your job, that is moderate. Now that you have been given the pointy stick, use it, draw the line and be the sheriff. I enjoy coming to your "front lawn," but you have some who are troll trashing the place and I am getting tired of sorting through the crap to get to the good stuff. Any improvements you do to this site will be for not if you don't start evicting these sorts.
You know what is crap and what isn't. This site has become at times a mess because a strong hand has not been dropped to stop it. You give folks lots of chances, but regrettably, you also show favoritism when you delay stopping people.
I appreciate all you do here. Happy holidays,
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MrVerylongusername
1424 posts
Dec 20, 2010
1:20 PM
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@6SN7
I agree. We have at least 1 active troll if not 2. Trolls know how to push it to the limit, but not cross the line. However their actions give away their intentions. One would only need to look at their posting history to identify them. I say no mercy for trolls, even if they do not actually break the rules.
@Kyzer
Apologies if I misunderstood. As I said in other posts, I have nothing against a chat room - I just worry that it is just another forum for things to kick off on.
@everyone
As for constructive feedback - I reiterate: Rules!!! that's what we need.
Explicit, black an white rules. Adam is a writer, so unsurprisingly the 'creed' takes the form of a verbose half page of prose. It doesn't look like a set of rules, and people have become very savvy at skimming content on webpages. The creed, looking like a innocuous welcome message is easiliy overlooked.
IMHO It needs to be clear, concise, bulleted points. i.e:
1. Please refrain from bad language,
2. Do not make insulting, obscene, homophobic, xenophobic, sexist or racist remarks.
3. Mark off-topic threads with the prefix "OT:"
4. Do not make threads or posts pertaining to religion or politics as these are likely to cause offense.
5. Spammers and trolls with have their accounts deleted without warning.
6. Members will be subject to a 3 strikes rule for breaking these rules. 2 warnings will be given. A 3rd transgression will result in a ban. Moderators reserve the right to execute an immediate ban for severe and deliberate rule breaking.
HarmonicaSpace had all the bells and whistles but it died - Jim's phpBB (or whatever software he uses) forum looks smart, but is a ghost-town; this forum (amazingly) still has new members banging on Adam's door. Threads can gain 50+ posts in an hour or so! It is my very strongly held opinion that much of that success is due to the very simple forum structure. The forum is not broken! it does not need fixing! It just needs a firm, fair and consistent hand and more mods with greater powers to execute the rules.
Again, just my 2p, but the most important thing that is lacking in this forum is IP logging. With an IP of a spammer you can actually go proactive: report them to their ISPs and get their accounts terminated. It's easy to get the information you need to do so as long as you have the IP address. IP logging also makes it easier for Mods to identify sock puppets and trolls with multiple posting identities.
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GermanHarpist
1924 posts
Dec 20, 2010
2:40 PM
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Yes, I agree with most of the above.
And what MrVlong says is absolutely true. What this forum really needs is real rules. And the ones you mentioned seem to be sensible to me.
All the rest would be nice but is not necessary. And IMO would need a complete redesign of the website, so we should wait until that is due.
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
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KingoBad
541 posts
Dec 20, 2010
7:49 PM
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*SIGH*
Guys, stop it with the rules business. Adam had posted it nicely and gives proper room for free exchange. You will all be the victims of your own bureaucracy after nailing down your commandments.
We should expect everyone to come in an behave reasonably.
Is there a way to allow for a temporary cool-off ban? Say drop 'em in the box for 2 weeks and it automatically lets them out? That way they can cool their guns and not have the hammer brought down on them for good. That way moderators can cool folks off without feeling so bad about it, and they WILL be more likely to do it when things get out of hand. Two weeks is long enough that they will think about doing it again.
I think the only labels that would be valuable would be if you were in the "tutor available" area, you could post your qualifications on what you were tutoring (qualifications or tech or customization, etc), or on the other end, what you need help with.
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hermonica
28 posts
Dec 20, 2010
8:31 PM
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I go to a vehicle forum and they have a nice private chat room with video too any chance of that??
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GermanHarpist
1926 posts
Dec 20, 2010
10:55 PM
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Kingo, I see that it may seem restrictive to have a couple of clear cut rules... however, this makes it so much easier for the moderators to do their job.
/We should expect everyone to come in an behave reasonably./
This may have worked when the community was still small. However, this is the internet... we should accept that, no, you can't.
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
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KingoBad
544 posts
Dec 20, 2010
11:20 PM
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GH,
I'm with you on the moderation part. It has got to be a mess trying to keep all this in check. Perhaps I am just horrified at the state of civility. Manners are of short order, and I fear a dying art.
I do like my idea of the 2 week auto-reinstating cool down ban... I think it would allow the moderators to be more active in stopping the problems without permanent consequences. (of course serial offenders can be sent packing)
I think people get the freedom for which they are responsible. I can't argue with you assessment of what is needed in the current climate, however sad it may make me.
I'll support whatever keeps this place alive and healthy.
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MrVerylongusername
1425 posts
Dec 21, 2010
1:39 AM
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I agree the 'cool down' ban is a good idea, but I think it should be part of a clear cut 3 strikes policy too. i.e 1st offence - warning, 2nd offence (or ignoring 1st warning) cool down ban, 3rd offence - permanent ban.
I don't understand the reticence with rules. The 'creed' is just a bunch of rules. It is just a matter of presentation. I get the point 'creed', 'joyous disciples' etc... but it's verbose and doesn't look like what it is intended to be. It needs to be called the 'Rules' and it needs to be a concise unequivocal list, otherwise I guarantee it will continue to be overlooked by many. My example was just taking the creed and reformatting it (and adding the necessary enforcement stuff)
Clear rules and fair enforcement go hand-in-hand. If you want one, you have to have the other.
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Silvertone
59 posts
Dec 21, 2010
6:17 AM
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Not really a redesign ,but, maybe a simple way to bring peace ,harmony and good will to all men. How about a thread titled Off Topic/Unmoderated 2011 similar to the for sale thread.Anyone could post in it if they wanted, no one could get there panties in a bunch about what he said/she said as it is clearly titled unmoderated. Moderators could bounce posts there at their discretion and leave a "Post moved to Off topic thread". Traffic and site hits would not drop off. Mods wouldnt not have to go in there unless they wanted to post something themselves. And most of all this board would not be full of threads that disintegrate into squabbling childish battles.
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MrVerylongusername
1428 posts
Dec 21, 2010
6:20 AM
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Buddha used to have one of those on his old forum. A gloves off anything goes, not for the faint of heart area!
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